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NoSUV View Drop Down
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Joined: 14 Jan 2005
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoSUV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2007 at 2:41pm
Sponge- the point is that IT IS TECHNOLOGICALLY FEASIBLE, which seems to soak right through you. Ever been on SR91? I drive it about once every 3 months using the regular lanes. As I've said with the hybrid, try it before saying it has no possibilty of working.

Is it possible that the carpools on SR91 could travel without a toll? Why, yes, it is!

Was the "improvement" based on widening the freeway, just like what it proposed in NOVA?
Why, yes, it was!

Is there serious congestion on SR91?
Why, it's almost identical to NOVA, with the regular lanes barely moving and the express lanes zooming during commuting (and most non-commuting) hours!

Can there be more than one entry and exit point on an electronic toll system?
My goodness, you think?

I agree that the illegal tinting of windows could be a factor - for which the video system could also record and send a ticket.

Squeezed enough or do you want to keep going?
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Joined: 06 Oct 2004
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SpongeBob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2007 at 12:32pm
Yes, I've looked at the SR91 model. It is not applicable to the system as proposed by Fluor/Transurban. That road is only 10 miles long, not 35+, it has one entrance and one exit, not a dozen or more as will be the case with the planned toll road here, it has one tolling point, not several dozen as we will have. It has far, far fewer vehicles on it. It has two lanes, not three. It is used mostly, according to its statistics, by housewives going shopping and is not a central commuter route. It was not a pre-existing HOV, but was custom-built within the bounds of the existing freeway.

Carpools are not free during commuting hours on SR91, as was promised, but are tolled with a mild discount. That is the point.

The tolling on SR91 is not "congestion dynamic", as is planned for traffic management purpose on I95, but is based on a published schedule.

Current prices on SR91 (which increase every six months) are about 92.5 cents per mile in the evening and about 45 cents in the morning. Why expect anything cheaper here? Do the math on a daily commute from Woodbridge.

The lone toll checkpoint on SR91 is a video camera running tape, with the occasional human in the booth. Any chance that would work here given the traffic volume and speeds on our road? Given the fact you can't look inside a van? Given the darkness in the morning and a set of tinted windows?

Finally, SR91 included a controversial if not entirely sick-minded "non-compete" clause that only you could love.

Still, SR91 failed as private venture and had to be rescued by the state.

To compare the two roads either 1) displays your ignorance or 2)proves our suspicions that you are a troll in the gainful employ of someone with a financial incentive to toll the citizens of Virginia. (And please, don't do your usual attempt to divert the argument by saying that I, too, have a financial incentive at stake. Duh.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoSUV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2007 at 10:02am
Sponge -

Currently, CA 91 has a system for carpoolers to use the toll lanes. There are 2 lanes as you approach the unmanned electronic toll station; one for carpool and one for others. I suspect that enforcement is conducted via video surveillance of the lanes. Both lanes require the use of a transponder.

When you think about it, without a video surveillance, what's to keep those without transponders from using the lanes? If not video, then how are the toll lanes enforced without 24/7 police? The conclusion is that there has to be both the transponder recorder and a video system.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SpongeBob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2007 at 10:00am
Nah, Raymond; they are not going to implement such a paperwork-intensive, easily fooled process. Not when there is so much money at stake.

I have thought about this a lot (my wife says too much) and there is no technical way for the overhead transponders to charge one car with two people and not charge another car with three people. It can't be done.

OK, you could have cops stationed at numerous points along the system stopping every car with tinted windows and every van to count passengers. That would certainly make ride-sharing convenient, eh?

Remember EVERY vehicle that accesses these lanes, EVERY SINGLE ONE, must have an EZ-Pass. One theory I've heard is that carpoolers would have a "sock" to put their transponder in that would keep it from being charged by the toll booths. But what is to stop me from putting my transponder in the sock all the time? Heck, we could all do that any time we want! Do you think Flour/Transurban will let us do that?

So what is their alternative? Toll everyone!

Look, Kirby said it plain as day in the Post: HOV-3 won't be free.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n/a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2007 at 1:48pm
quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]OK. Now please write him back and make sure he understands that "expanding HOV" by putting tolls on the existing portion will actually cause the elimination of HOV, since there is no technical way to count the number of passengers in a vehicle, and therefore no way to allow free HOV use.

All cars will be tolled at the same rate, and so there will be far less incentive to ride share.

Plus, does he know the expected cost of a commute from Spotsylvania to DC on the new tollway? Over $30 EACH WAY. Everyday. Does he really want to vote for that tax on his constituents? They use the road for free right now...



Spongy, I suspect you're half-right (and half-left). The likely solution is that EVERYONE will be tolled and HOVers will have to petition Flour to remove the fees that appear on their EZPass. I suspect HOVers would also need to provide written documentation of their carpool (similar to what many agencies do now to allow carpool parking). This also means that there would be qualification criteria, and perhaps even required notorized "carpool participation" affidavits and other processes (hoops to jump through) before the tolls could be removed. Forget that the whole EZPass system is an intrusive, big brotheresque means to track our comings and goings (read "1984," "Brave New World" or "Atlas Shrugged").

However, this makes total sense when you remember that this is designed solely to discourage carpooling and encourage toll paying.

The moral of the story is that whenever the government gets involved in something they screw it up for everyone!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No2HOV-1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2007 at 9:46am
The correspondence is factual. That is what was sent to Delegate Cole and that is his response. Delegate Cole voted against the exemption last year and this year he abstained from voting. Whether there was a "promise" for July 06 thru Jun 07 to be the last year, that's debatable. That was my inferrence as well as others. However, I've come to realize that the exemption will always continue because there are only a few of the delegates and senators who could care about this issue and they will never have the number of votes to reject the bill. The only way to stop it is to not have it introduced or to not have the Transportation Committee refer it to the House or Senate, but that will never happen because voting for the exemption makes the delegates and senators look good on the environment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote darkprime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2007 at 9:34am
I just sent a nice long explanation and mentioned this site too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sluDgE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 6:03pm
Bob,
Goober wrote about the canned response he got from a delegate in another string and is now contemplating writing to the Governor. Info below is FYI..

About the comment on contacting the Governor ...
Here's a quote from the current Governor's website at http://www.governor.virginia.gov/AboutTheGovernor/biography.cfm

"In transportation, Governor Kaine is working to promote greater accountability, with a focus on measurable improvements, better connections between land use and transportation planning, and greater investments in road, rail and public transportation infrastructure. During his first year in office, he has recruited innovative transportation professionals and made significant advances in land use reforms that will make Virginia’s transportation network serve people better."

If you want to "contact" him, you can send a message at http://www.governor.virginia.gov/AboutTheGovernor/contactGovernor.cfm

It would be interesting to see what, if any, response you would get.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoSUV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 2:28pm
MDC - several of the messages I sent to candidates were provided to Robert Lang, including the responses. Thanks for helping.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MDC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 1:34pm
Mr. Troll,
I'm sure that any correspondence you've had with your elected representatives have been fact checked and were found to be 100% accurate. Just like everything you post here.
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