Slug-Lines.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Archived Slugging Topics > Hybrids
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Hybrids - a threat to car-pooling?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedHybrids - a threat to car-pooling?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 45>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
defender View Drop Down
New Slug
New Slug


Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Location: va
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hybrids - a threat to car-pooling?
    Posted: 19 Mar 2005 at 8:35am
quote:
Originally posted by Wagonman
[br]
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]Wagonman - you're logic is fuzzy. You say HOV is "at capacity" but methinks that includes hybrids. I guess you are in favor of extending the hybrid exemption to keep HOV at capacity. Welcome to the Team.




Nice attempt to twist words. If HOVs are at capacity(actually slighty over) that means the only way to increase the amount of people moved is to get rid of SOVs.


There is the capacity as in cars per hour per lane.

There is the capacity as in commuters per hour.

Because the road is at its vehicle per hour capacity, there are only a few means to increase the commuter throughput:

a. Increase density by removing SOVs

b. Increase density by going to HOV-4

c. Build a third lane

Doing c. doesn't address the recent drop in commuter throughput. The easy target is hybrids, they are obvious. But, if yu look at the BB JJ and BJ plates, you will find numerous "cheaters" who are actually law enforcement personnel, using the exemption rule. [YES! THEY ARE USING THEIR POSITION FOR PERSONAL GAIN. I consider it only one step away from rskimming money from a drug bust as far as corrution goes.]

Doing b. doesn't address the dillution problem and requires a sizable increase in down range parking and other changes.

Doing a. is the first step.


Back to Top
Wagonman View Drop Down
New Slug
New Slug


Joined: 05 Aug 2003
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wagonman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2005 at 6:05pm
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]Wagonman - you're logic is fuzzy. You say HOV is "at capacity" but methinks that includes hybrids. I guess you are in favor of extending the hybrid exemption to keep HOV at capacity. Welcome to the Team.




Nice attempt to twist words. If HOVs are at capacity(actually slighty over) that means the only way to increase the amount of people moved is to get rid of SOVs. You need to fill the empty seats in the vehicles that are already putting the road at capacity. SOVs in HOVs only worsen congestion. When half the SOVs given expemtions have poor emissions it makes the exemption even more untenable. Once the hybrids are out and capacity is met again then you go to HOV4. They also need to add space to some commuter lots which is much, much cheaper than building more lanes.
Honestly, no matter what is done congestion in the regular lanes is an unsolveable problem. If they spent the money to build more lanes more people would just stop taking metro, carpooling, or the VRE up until the point where congestion is now. There isn't enough land and money to build enough lanes to overcome that equilibrium point. Besides, in the case of 395, DC streets can only absorb so many lanes of traffic. Actually, there is one solution, it is congestion pricing for all lanes. But I can't see that being politically feasible.
Back to Top
Mr. Bill View Drop Down
New Slug
New Slug


Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Location: VA
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr. Bill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2005 at 3:50pm
quote:
Originally posted by VA4ver
No one forces people to carpool or travel in the regular lanes or take mass transit - it's a choice anyone can make based on individual priorities.


Good post.
Back to Top
VA4ver View Drop Down
New Slug
New Slug


Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VA4ver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2005 at 3:45pm
There's no point because if you damn HOV because it's a failed attempt at behavior modification, you end up in a no win situation. No, people don't want to carpool with others, but they are willing to put up with it to use the HOV lanes. And, obviously, there's a lot of people who don't want to take mass transit either for the same behavior modification issues (sitting next to strangers, conform to bus/metro schedules, etc.), so they decide to travel alone in their cars adding to the congestion.

No one forces people to carpool or travel in the regular lanes or take mass transit - it's a choice anyone can make based on individual priorities. If the expess lanes are opened to everyone, then expect everyone to start traveling solo -- passing up on buses, metro, carpools, etc. Then where will you be? Left without choices.
Back to Top
Mr. Bill View Drop Down
New Slug
New Slug


Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Location: VA
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr. Bill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2005 at 3:05pm
quote:
Originally posted by Trotski99
The problem with HOV is that it depends on behavior modification that is contrary to the way people want to live their lives.



So what is your point? The HOV is the carrot to get people to carpool. According to Dr. Gridlock the HOV lanes are currently moving more people than the GP lanes so they are working. Getting people to their destinations is the goal of roads and transit. If you let non-HOV into the lanes it removes the incentive to carpool.

Face it you just do not like the idea of HOV.

People want to drive fast as well, that is why there are negative incentives (tickets/fines) to doing that.
Back to Top
Trotski99 View Drop Down
New Slug
New Slug


Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Location: VA
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trotski99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2005 at 2:48pm
Communism would have worked too if everyone would have just been satisfied with having the same things as everyone else and everyone just did as they were told. In the end it just turned out to be an unworkable situation because people are selfish and will usually only do things in their own self-interest unless they are rewarded or coerced into doing otherwise.

This goes to my central point. If people are unwilling to do something (in this case carpool with strangers every morning) then it is not going to work. The problem with HOV is that it depends on behavior modification that is contrary to the way people want to live their lives.

If HOV logic were extended to other situations it would seem rediculous. Let's say you could only go to the store more than once a week to go shopping unless you took one of your elderly neighbors with you. It sounds like a laudable idea. There are a lot of elderly people who can't get to the store on their own and it would be nice to enact a law that would "encourage" people to take the elderly shopping. The problem is that there wouldn't be enough elderly to go around for everyone to go to the store. You'd have to spend 10 more minutes of your day waiting for grandma to get in and out of your car.

When I look at the HOV lanes now I am happy to see the hybrids because at least there are some cars in the lanes! Before the hybrids were let in they were completely empty. Even now if you're stopped in the general traffic lanes you can look to your left and count to 20 sometimes during the pause between cars. These lanes need to be opened up to more traffic in one way or another. There is no reason why they should sit empty while the other lanes are stopped.

Back to Top
14thDriver View Drop Down
New Slug
New Slug


Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 14thDriver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2005 at 1:09pm
In reply to Trotski99:

HOV is an incentive system. It's a choice, not unlike self-checkout lanes in stores, but it isn't exactly communism. I can not find sympathy for users of the GP lanes because they are unwilling to legally use HOV to get to work more quikly. It is like a child who refuses to take the medicine that will briefly taste bad but then complains about how sick he is. Why should all taxpayers pay for more roads because 1/2 the people driving up 395 are too selfish to contribute to the available solution?

If you make the HOV lanes into regular lanes for all commuters, the increase in cars associated with the number of slugs who would then drive would gain us nothing. Again, why should everyone suffer because some people are unwilling to assist in the solution? Also, more capacity isn't the solution. Good luck increasing capacity at the 14th street bridge. If you can't solve that, you can have 20 lanes and it won't make a difference in time, it will only change how close you are to your destination while you wait.
Back to Top
NoSUV View Drop Down
New Slug
New Slug


Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoSUV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2005 at 11:28am

http://home.comcast.net/~robertlangdirect//SAVEHOV.ppt
Mr. Lang: You make an assumption that repealing the hybrid exemption will increase total commuter throughput. I suspect that you need to take a survey of hybrid drivers to see what percent would pick up slugs, what percent would become slugs, and what percent would go into the regular lanes.

Without a survey, you should re-run your graphs based on first 100% going into each category (and, of course, 0% in the other 2), then perhaps an assumption of some mixture.

I still think it's either exemption or toll in the short run.
Back to Top
NoSUV View Drop Down
New Slug
New Slug


Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoSUV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2005 at 11:17am
Wagonman - you're logic is fuzzy. You say HOV is "at capacity" but methinks that includes hybrids. I guess you are in favor of extending the hybrid exemption to keep HOV at capacity. Welcome to the Team.

If you look at the slug lots, you can see that the numbers of cars has not gone down proportionally with the increase of hybrids, so that's not where the drivers are coming from. Also, the congestion in the regular lanes has also not substantially decreased with the hybrid HOV exemption. Only leaves 2 alternatives: drivers who used to take slugs bought hybrids (that says something ugly about what they must think about slugs!) OR total numbers have increased across the board. Drivers in regular lanes have a reason why they are there instead of car pooling, and I doubt it is because they like sitting in traffic.

Questions should be:
- how do you best balance the load between the HOV and regular lanes in the near term?
- what is needed for the infrastructure for 5 years from now?

The answer to the first has only 2 alternatives:
- increase the hybrid exemption
- go to tolls (increasing the fee until balance is achieved)
Back to Top
Mr. Bill View Drop Down
New Slug
New Slug


Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Location: VA
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr. Bill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2005 at 11:57pm
quote:
Originally posted by Wagonman
It will also prevent any real solutions for the regular lanes since I'm sure there will be a no-compete clause in the contract making any improvements to the regular lanes impossible till the lease is up in 40 years.

HOT will maximize revenue, not maximize moving people.



I totally agree. The reason that these unsolicited proposals were offered is that VDOT has no money bugeted for these NOVA highways and there are private companies that are looking to make some bucks -- I cannot blame them for trying. The goal is to move people HOV works.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 45>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.188 seconds.