Hybrids - a threat to car-pooling?

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   Arbo:  Glad you paid attention in math class.  That was not my point.  The hybrid gets is clearance for its emissions not the mpg.  The math supports your point but it was not the question that was asked.

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tdar20 Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 29 Jul 2002 Location: va Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote tdar20 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 Jan 2003 at 7:32am
	Arbo: Glad you paid attention in math class. That was not my point. The hybrid gets is clearance for its emissions not the mpg. The math supports your point but it was not the question that was asked.

minamu Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 12 Jun 2003 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote minamu Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 13 Jun 2003 at 4:05am
	Surrender to the hybrids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Virginia has already passed the law extending the exemption to 2006, but there is some chance that the Federal govt. may step in and nullify the law, arguing that the exemption is contrary to the purpose of the HOV lanes. However, it appears that Virginia might still be able to then legally allow hybrids to travel HOV-2 in the HOV-3 lanes, which would still be a bonus. Personally, given that we live in an area with bad air quality and so many SUVs constantly making it worse, I think any and all incentives to improve air quality here should be smiled upon. The more people who get into hybrid cars, the better.

3ForHOV Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 27 Mar 2003 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote 3ForHOV Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 13 Jun 2003 at 9:00am
	quote: Originally posted by minamu [br]Surrender to the hybrids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Virginia has already passed the law extending the exemption to 2006, but there is some chance that the Federal govt. may step in and nullify the law, arguing that the exemption is contrary to the purpose of the HOV lanes. However, it appears that Virginia might still be able to then legally allow hybrids to travel HOV-2 in the HOV-3 lanes, which would still be a bonus. Personally, given that we live in an area with bad air quality and so many SUVs constantly making it worse, I think any and all incentives to improve air quality here should be smiled upon. The more people who get into hybrid cars, the better. The NoVA and surrounding areas would be a better place if we all drove Hybrids AND still picked up slugs.

wdossel Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote wdossel Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 13 Jun 2003 at 10:32am
	quote: Originally posted by 3ForHOV [br] quote: Originally posted by minamu [br]Surrender to the hybrids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Virginia has already passed the law extending the exemption to 2006, but there is some chance that the Federal govt. may step in and nullify the law, arguing that the exemption is contrary to the purpose of the HOV lanes. However, it appears that Virginia might still be able to then legally allow hybrids to travel HOV-2 in the HOV-3 lanes, which would still be a bonus. Personally, given that we live in an area with bad air quality and so many SUVs constantly making it worse, I think any and all incentives to improve air quality here should be smiled upon. The more people who get into hybrid cars, the better. The NoVA and surrounding areas would be a better place if we all drove Hybrids AND still picked up slugs. ... and therein lies my issue w/hybrids. I don't mind them, per se (other than questions about disposal of the battery packs at the end of their useful life), rather I would prefer that all vehicles using the HOV at the designated times carry the requisite number of people, be it HOV2 or 3. - Will

MDC Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 04 Dec 2002 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote MDC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 Jun 2003 at 12:28am
	They better figure out something soon, the full size SUV hybrids are coming one of these days. I've seen pictures, and even linked to a few of them earlier in this thread I believe.

Bob Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Dec 2001 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote Bob Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 Jun 2003 at 10:34am
	My information is that the Ford Excape hybrid will be available next summer or fall (2004). We must contact our representatives in state government so that these are not allowed. I am totally against this.

MDC Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 04 Dec 2002 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote MDC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 Jun 2003 at 3:53pm
	How can they not allow them based on what they are doing now. The hybrids today don't meet the requirments for the "clean fuel" exemption, yet Virginia is giving them it anyway. Read the section of law regarding requirments for the "clean fuel" plates and it's clear the gasoline powered vehicles can not be included as written..

mroyal Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 01 Apr 2003 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote mroyal Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 17 Jun 2003 at 11:14am
	MDC, You may have not completed your research. The HOV incentive is formulated in Federal Law (See Title 40 Code Part 88 88.313-93). The three vehicles (Honda Civic, Insight, and Toyota Prius) are the only three hybrids which have earned the emmisions certification (thus far) which qualify them for Clean Fuel Vehicle incentives. The incentives may vary from state to state, but the HOV incentive is in the code. You will notice a provision that allows Governers to petition the Administrator for an exemption to this, if it is determined that the ILEVs (Inherently Low-Emmision Vehicles) are the main source of congestion. New hybrids would must be approved before receiving this (and other) incentives. Here are a couple of links for your convenience. I'm not sure they will work directly from here, but they will get you close. http://www.ccities.doe.gov/vbg/progs/search_type.cgi?8 http://www.knownet.hhs.gov/log/fleetDR/documents/part88.pdf I have expressed my opinion on this in another thread, so I'll not repeat it here. I will, however underline an earlier notion... Its the emmisions, not the fuel economy that qualify the vehicle. The fuel economy is an added bonus. Kindest Regards, mroyal

mroyal Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 01 Apr 2003 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote mroyal Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 17 Jun 2003 at 11:47am
	quote: Originally posted by Arbo [br]tdar. Let's try to look at the math of it though. I live 50 miles from work. If I drive a hybrid that gets 50mpg, then I would use 1 gallon of gas (per person) and produce the emmisions of that 1 gallon (again, per person). If I drive in the HOV-3 (legally, with two other people in the car) using a car that gets 25mpg, then I would use 2 gallons, but for three people. Therefore, I would be using 2/3 gallon per person and producing the emmissions of 2/3 gallon per person. In this case, the we produces less emmissions per person than the hybrid AND have less traffic congestion AND get to work faster. the hybrids are nice, but they will only make congestion MUCH worse. Personnally, I'd like to see the hybrids exception (and all of the other single person exceptions) done away with. The hybrids MAY alleviate the emmissions problem (and many people debate that), but will do nothing for the congestion problems. Your math may be a little too presumptious. The Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle are 90% more efficient at reducing emissions, not 33.33% Also, it would take about 4 gallons to drive my SUV for your 50 miles, regardless of the number of passengers, (which is one of the reasons that I slug.) Lastly, I have not noticed any slow-downs on HOV that are not related to accidents or weather, so we would not get to work any quicker. So, your conclusion would be invalid on all three accounts until such time that hybrids or other Clean Fuel vehicles become a burden to the HOV lanes. I do agree that the benefits of Clean Fuel vehicles are multiplied (possibly exponentially, when you consider emmisions) by additional passengers on a per-person ratio. However, there are currently no incentives to do so. Maybe an ammendment to the tax relief in the new thread that I began may be a place to start. A small incentive may be found, but better than none. Kindest Regards, mroyal

MDC Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 04 Dec 2002 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote MDC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 18 Jun 2003 at 9:21pm
	mroyal, I've read the statute word for word, and it specifically states that cars running gasoline do not qualify for the clean fuel exemption. Virginia might have changed the enforcement of that, but they have not changed the wording regarding gasoline powered vehicles. Here's an article from 2000 about a guy with his Honda Insight getting HOV violations because his car didn't qualify for the exemption. http://www.jrnl.net/news/00/Aug/jrn17100800.html But that's not my point. It's that 9 out of 10, if not 99 of 100 new cars in the "HOV" lanes with temporary tags are hybrids. Where does that lead us in the near term?