Looking for Allies to Battle HOT

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   Umm.  Yes.  Are you saying I'm fighting only for myself?  Well, to mirror your logic...

	Of course I am!

	I am only interested in preserving MY access to the HOV lanes.  I don't care if they charge everyone else.  As long as I get to keep the exemption I was personally awarded as a low-mileage invertebrate, what do I care if everyone else has to make way for me?

	I want to ride alone in the lanes, and I deserve to because I had the wherewithal to undergo an invertebra-octomy.  Anyone else who wants to ride alone need only have the same done to them.

	Of course, after everyone has their endo-skeleton removed, my private and personal road might get a little crowded... but I don't really care to think about the future.  Just about me, myself, and I.

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SpongeBob Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote SpongeBob Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 Sep 2006 at 2:15pm
	Umm. Yes. Are you saying I'm fighting only for myself? Well, to mirror your logic... Of course I am! I am only interested in preserving MY access to the HOV lanes. I don't care if they charge everyone else. As long as I get to keep the exemption I was personally awarded as a low-mileage invertebrate, what do I care if everyone else has to make way for me? I want to ride alone in the lanes, and I deserve to because I had the wherewithal to undergo an invertebra-octomy. Anyone else who wants to ride alone need only have the same done to them. Of course, after everyone has their endo-skeleton removed, my private and personal road might get a little crowded... but I don't really care to think about the future. Just about me, myself, and I.

NoSUV Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote NoSUV Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 Sep 2006 at 1:36pm
	yes, sponge, for all of us, it's exemption or toll. And the all includes quite a few under the umbrella: hybrids, motorcycles, and carpools. Deciding to fight for yourself while at the same time trying to screw someone else just gets everyone wet. As sponges should know.

SpongeBob Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote SpongeBob Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Sep 2006 at 10:03am
	Part of me wants to ignore you, NoSUV, and the other part of me refuses to concede any ground to your idiocy. Obviously, again, you lost the argument, so you've started a different one. I said nothing about principles. You asked whether I thought the motorcycles would continue to have access to the carpool lanes after the hybrid extension ends. I pointed out that motorcycle access was driven by the safety issue. So the access will continue since the safety issue will continue. And there is no need to limit motorcycles on the carpool lanes because their numbers are not greatly increasing. Therefore, there is no political pressure (or statistical pressure) to reduce or remove the motorcycles from the carpool lanes. If, as I suspect, the motorcyclists will lose all access after the toll road take-over, then at least three guys on my cul-de-sac will be spitting mad. Right now, they are blissfully unaware of VDOT's betrayal.

NoSUV Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote NoSUV Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 Sep 2006 at 2:47pm
	sponge - so you're saying that it's not the pricipal, it's the numbers?

n/a Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 17 Dec 2001 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote n/a Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 Sep 2006 at 2:29pm
	It's not about winning, Sponge. With NoSUV its about whining! Its not about logic, nor reason, nor is it about consideration for anyone else. None of the issues really matter to NoSUV. NoSUV is not affected by any of it. NoSUV does not participate in slugging, nor commute on I95/395, (and will not be affected by the HOT lanes). With NoSUV its about whining! Just whining!

SpongeBob Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote SpongeBob Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 Sep 2006 at 1:04pm
	Yes, duh. The motorcycle exemption does not add significantly to lane crowding, especially during the colder months. Their exemption was driven by the Feds as a safety concern, not by the state as a pseudo-environmental sop. The number of motorcycles as a percentage of vehicles is holding steady, as are their numbers on the HOV lanes, again unlike high-breds. But several of us clearly heard the fork-tongued toll road corporations state, specifically and in public, that motorcycles and large trucks would not be allowed to access the new toll roads. The corporations might try and finesse that, but the truth will be known in the end. Why don't you stop? You almost never win, NoSUV.

NoSUV Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote NoSUV Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 Sep 2006 at 11:53am
	quote: Originally posted by SpongeBob [br] I want the bikers ... of the world. Bikers didn't get THEIR exemption until '94. Do you think that they will continue to get it when hybrids don't?

Bob Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Dec 2001 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote Bob Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 Sep 2006 at 11:12am
	The allies will come together in a big way once HOT is implemented and has a huge negative impact on our commutes and budgets. It will be a tidal wave. The problem with organizing opposition ahead of time is we are dealing with a very sophisticated approach, outright legal (non personal) bribery, and the incredible complexity. They didn't want to listen to common sense that you can only get so much water to go through a funnel. This is going to get real interesting.

SpongeBob Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote SpongeBob Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 Sep 2006 at 10:48am
	That's right. And even if all the hybrid owners joined all the slugs and clamored as one in opposition to the toll roads, well, they'd come just the same. In fact, hybrid owners fighting toll roads in order to extend their personal solo exemption would be MORE likely to hurt our cause: no one is deemed more selfish than the Smugs. Meanwhile, carpoolers are seen as good-guys/gals -- read Dagwood and Blondie lately? So I will happily wave goodbye to the Smugs as allies. I want the bikers and the trucking industry and the vanpool operators and the Dagwoods of the world.

N_or_S_bound Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 20 May 2005 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote N_or_S_bound Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 Sep 2006 at 9:14am
	Toll roads won't come based on "attitudes" anymore than the rain will fall because the stock market is rising. Toll roads WILL come because of that beautiful legislature some talk about (as if they really cared about NOVA commuting) and the politicians' interest in "more green" for their campaign warchests. Plain and simple, tolls won't be decided based on opinions expressed or quantifiable data...unless you consider the amount of $$s contributed to politicians as "quantifiable data". NoSb SOV because you can, HOV because you care!