Looking for Allies to Battle HOT

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   I agree that there should be more discussion on how the roads should operate.  I believe there are people (planners?) that are thinking about the big picture and long term objectives of commuting in this area.  There are numerous studies about highways and proposed plans, like VDOT�s 2025 State Highway Plan.  However, I think that is a subject matter that will be ongoing with refinements and continually discussed over the years.

	HOT is a subject that needs to be addressed now because it can damage the success of the slug system and conceivably influence long range plans for commuting.  So, this thread, labeled �Looking for Allies to Battle HOT� suggests that we need to fight HOT, not with a closed minded or extremist approach, but with the understanding that it will kill the slug system.

	BTW, Dave is David LeBlanc, the author of the book "Slugging:The Commuting Alternative For Washington DC" and administrator of this site (hope I didn' step on your toes, DickBoyd).

	Goober

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goober Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 28 Oct 2004 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2	Post Options Post Reply Quote goober Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 Dec 2004 at 10:37am
	I agree that there should be more discussion on how the roads should operate. I believe there are people (planners?) that are thinking about the big picture and long term objectives of commuting in this area. There are numerous studies about highways and proposed plans, like VDOT�s 2025 State Highway Plan. However, I think that is a subject matter that will be ongoing with refinements and continually discussed over the years. HOT is a subject that needs to be addressed now because it can damage the success of the slug system and conceivably influence long range plans for commuting. So, this thread, labeled �Looking for Allies to Battle HOT� suggests that we need to fight HOT, not with a closed minded or extremist approach, but with the understanding that it will kill the slug system. BTW, Dave is David LeBlanc, the author of the book "Slugging:The Commuting Alternative For Washington DC" and administrator of this site (hope I didn' step on your toes, DickBoyd). Goober

dickboyd Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 13 Nov 2004 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote dickboyd Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 Dec 2004 at 4:55pm
	Goober, the $9 per hour saving came from a bus advocate professional engineer. The time frame was 1980. The venue was the Citizen's Advisory Committee to the Transportation Commission. This was a politically appointed board that met at the Northern Virginia Planning Commission at 7700 Little River Turnpike in Annandale, Virginia. Bob Chase was also at that meeting. The $9 per hour was also quoted from an FHWA report on cost of transportation. Again, that was twenty or more years ago. I guess I can ask howstuffworks or FHWA for an update. Am I for or agin HOT? As Ronald Reagan used to say, let me say this about that. I believe roads should be free flowing. Not capacity - free flowing. There are places where HOT has been used to build more lane miles. [California, San Diego, Orange County, etc.] When the passengers didn't materialize to make the High Occupancy part work, the toll was in place to collect money. Commuters in the area seemed to be happy because congestion was slightly relieved. Politicians were ecstatic over the windfall. In my opinion, the high occupancy part of HOT did not work because there were no HOV champions. In fact, it worked the other way. There were detractors of casual car pools. Not enough commuters want to be passengers. Vested interests decided that passengers should only ride in the trains and buses recommended by the Metropolitan Planning Organization. Even those that would benefit from more passengers took up arms against the "jack booted thugs" that were about to bayonet innocent commuters into car pools. People like Joe Alexander, who was a Supervisor in Fairfax County would even turn his head and make a spitting gesture and sound at the mention of slugs or van pools. Even this news group talks about riding with "strangers". Granted there may be some strange people, but they are all neighbors. If you don't meet them at the slug line, you will see them at PTA meetings, kid's soccer games, shopping, at work or church. Play down the stranger part and emphasize the neighbor part. We are all in this together. But the HOT ploy did manage an end run around the "transit at any price" contingent. Some additional lane miles were added. Might I say at competitive prices. Machievelli advised the Prince not to change anything as he would only gain the enmity of the incumbent and only luke warm support from those to benefit. You might point that slugs are the incumbent. But till now have not yet expressed their enmity to the forces of evil that want to change things. Northern Virginia is unique in that commuters are still benefiting from the legacy of the way the Pentagon was built. Unlike today's real estate market, there was no zoning. Just build it. The infrastructure be damned. No roads? So what's the problem, we don't have any gasoline either (remember this was war time coming off a depression). Let the people ride together. People in northern Virginia formed car pools as a way of life. With each subsequent war (Korea, Viet Nam...) Pentagon employment grew. With each election, the population grew. Those not reelected stayed because that is where they had built their contacts. The newly elected moved in from the hinterlands. Each bringing their idea of what transportation should be. Those from cities wanted buses and trains. Those from rural areas wanted more roads. None of them had ever seen slug lines. The locals failed to educate the newbies. Car pools served about a third or more of the commuters. Buses provided mid day service, but not commuting. Then when Shirley Highway reversible lanes were built, the slug movement took off. The official effort was to limit the Shirley reversible lanes to buses only. One ploy was to limit the exits from Shirley that could be used by passenger cars. There was political pressure to get the off ramps opened for car pools. Crystal City was being built and the Navy was moving to Virginia at the time, so car pool commuting was a natural. Builders took advantage by having fewer parking spaces than what floor area ratios called for. METRO came later. In my opinion, METRO has not filled its promise. Land use around METRO stations does not match what you see in Paris or London. Ballston comes close as does L'Enfant, but none of the METRO stations have significant residential space. None of them have clusters of different stores that reduce the number of trips required. To sum it up. I am for the high occupancy part of HOT. I see the toll part as a sales tool for people to do some comparison shopping. Lets see... as a commuter I need to get to work on this route at this time of day. I can pick up two or three passengers or I can pay $4 and drive alone. In either case I save fifteen minutes on my normal thirty minute commute. Is fifteen minutes privacy worth $4? Is meeting two or three of my neighbors worth it? Or my third option is to drive alone on the regular lanes, have half an hour of privacy and keep the $4. Or I can buy an Accura RL and have a fantasy about their advertising as I sit in traffic. For what it is worth, the Citizen's Advisory Committee was disbanded even though there are still provisions in the law for its existence. In one sense, the CAC was a venue to muzzle the dissidents. In another, it was a way to get a broader public audience. Depended on which party was in power. The powers of darkness will use the toll part of HOT as a way to get the unrepentant slugs to conform to the norms of society. quote: Originally posted by goober [br]Dick, I'm curious as to where your numbers come from because you make no references. The numbers appear to be credible, so, I presume that some of your numbers came from news articles and elsewhere. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your diligence in supporting your points on traffic -- you appear to be quite knowledgeable about the subject. So, are you for or against HOT? Goober dickboyd@aol.com

dickboyd Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 13 Nov 2004 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote dickboyd Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 Dec 2004 at 5:35pm
	PEAK SHAVING No, this is not a story about Heidi in the Alps with a Gillette. With electricity and roads there is a peak demand. A time of day when electricity is more in demand. A time of day when more people want to use the road. Neither electricity or roads can be saved in a bottle for use at a different time. Power companies use a rate schedule to control demand. Electricity is more expensive during times of peak demand. [If you are really curious or have insomnia, ask and I'll go into more detail.] I assume most of the slugs are served by Prince William Electric Coop (PWEC). PWEC handles the peak demands for its customers in different ways. Water heating is deferred to early morning hours by timers. Air-conditioning is parceled out by smart thermostats. PWEC does not generate power. PWEC contracts to buy the cheap off peak power and then uses technology to deliver the effects of the electricity when needed. Hot water in the morning, cool houses on the hot August afternoon. OK, Virginia Power does save electricity for use at a different time. They use level loaded nuclear power to pump water into reservoirs during off peak times and then recover the potential energy of the water behind the dam to generate the peak load. But that peak electricity is still more expensive than base load power. Since this newsgroup is about commuting lets get back to the topic of roads. Are there vehicles on the road in rush hour that can make their trips at other times? When I lived in northern Virginia, you could play tennis on Shirley Highway off peak. Gasoline trucks and other delivery vehicles would not travel at night (or off peak for that matter) because it was too dangerous. Danger of being robbed, mugged or kidnapped. Danger of being driven out of business by irate neighbors over noise. Are there vehicles on the road in rush hour that could make their trips at other times? Could the less than a truck load deliveries be consolidated at a warehouse in West Virginia for single point drop off in DC? If there were a buck to be made, I'm sure someone will find a way to do it. Are there vehicles on the road that could be more efficient? How many vehicles have empty seats? What does it take to fill those empty seats? Or should we add more seats? I feel the politicians were elected to answer these questions. Is it more expensive to buy more buses and trains, or is it more expensive to get people to ride together? If the elected officials can show that it is cheaper to buy more trains and buses rather than ask people to ride with each other, more power to them. But I doubt if they can show how it is cheaper to run buses than slug lines. Unless they have a lot of external costs on the buses. Unless there is magic bookkeeping to make buses appear cheap and slugs appear to be expensive. Roads and electric generators should be built to handle a base load. Peak loads are better handled by some other strategy. Computer technology uses packet switching to select the best route. That means that lower priority messages may be held in a warehouse for delivery off peak. That means you may not be able to connect to a server lest you overload that server and cause it to crash. How do you packet switch people? Put them in the same packet (car) at a slug line. quote: Originally posted by Bob [br]I would like to request any information that slugs may have on potential allies in our fight against HOT, (at least in its current form). I am not a federal worker and am not real familiar with this, but I was thinking about the EPA, for example which controls air quality regs. I think that by adding thousands of cars, HOT will have a big negative impact on air quality. I have also thought about the various "green" groups such as Sierra Club which should be pro HOV. At one time I wrote a letter to AAA, which often takes political positions, but they never wrote back, so they may be pro HOT. On another occasion I wrote to Omniride, but unfortunately got a pro HOT response. There must be some allies we havent identified. dickboyd@aol.com

Baz Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote Baz Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Dec 2004 at 7:54am
	quote: Originally posted by dickboyd [br]Goober, the $9 per hour saving came from a bus advocate professional engineer. The time frame was 1980. The venue was the Citizen's Advisory Committee to the Transportation Commission. This was a politically appointed board that met at the Northern Virginia Planning Commission at 7700 Little River Turnpike in Annandale, Virginia. Bob Chase was also at that meeting. The $9 per hour was also quoted from an FHWA report on cost of transportation. Again, that was twenty or more years ago. I guess I can ask howstuffworks or FHWA for an update. Am I for or agin HOT? As Ronald Reagan used to say, let me say this about that. I believe roads should be free flowing. Not capacity - free flowing. There are places where HOT has been used to build more lane miles. [California, San Diego, Orange County, etc.] When the passengers didn't materialize to make the High Occupancy part work, the toll was in place to collect money. Commuters in the area seemed to be happy because congestion was slightly relieved. Politicians were ecstatic over the windfall. In my opinion, the high occupancy part of HOT did not work because there were no HOV champions. In fact, it worked the other way. There were detractors of casual car pools. Not enough commuters want to be passengers. Vested interests decided that passengers should only ride in the trains and buses recommended by the Metropolitan Planning Organization. Even those that would benefit from more passengers took up arms against the "jack booted thugs" that were about to bayonet innocent commuters into car pools. People like Joe Alexander, who was a Supervisor in Fairfax County would even turn his head and make a spitting gesture and sound at the mention of slugs or van pools. Even this news group talks about riding with "strangers". Granted there may be some strange people, but they are all neighbors. If you don't meet them at the slug line, you will see them at PTA meetings, kid's soccer games, shopping, at work or church. Play down the stranger part and emphasize the neighbor part. We are all in this together. But the HOT ploy did manage an end run around the "transit at any price" contingent. Some additional lane miles were added. Might I say at competitive prices. Machievelli advised the Prince not to change anything as he would only gain the enmity of the incumbent and only luke warm support from those to benefit. You might point that slugs are the incumbent. But till now have not yet expressed their enmity to the forces of evil that want to change things. Northern Virginia is unique in that commuters are still benefiting from the legacy of the way the Pentagon was built. Unlike today's real estate market, there was no zoning. Just build it. The infrastructure be damned. No roads? So what's the problem, we don't have any gasoline either (remember this was war time coming off a depression). Let the people ride together. People in northern Virginia formed car pools as a way of life. With each subsequent war (Korea, Viet Nam...) Pentagon employment grew. With each election, the population grew. Those not reelected stayed because that is where they had built their contacts. The newly elected moved in from the hinterlands. Each bringing their idea of what transportation should be. Those from cities wanted buses and trains. Those from rural areas wanted more roads. None of them had ever seen slug lines. The locals failed to educate the newbies. Car pools served about a third or more of the commuters. Buses provided mid day service, but not commuting. Then when Shirley Highway reversible lanes were built, the slug movement took off. The official effort was to limit the Shirley reversible lanes to buses only. One ploy was to limit the exits from Shirley that could be used by passenger cars. There was political pressure to get the off ramps opened for car pools. Crystal City was being built and the Navy was moving to Virginia at the time, so car pool commuting was a natural. Builders took advantage by having fewer parking spaces than what floor area ratios called for. METRO came later. In my opinion, METRO has not filled its promise. Land use around METRO stations does not match what you see in Paris or London. Ballston comes close as does L'Enfant, but none of the METRO stations have significant residential space. None of them have clusters of different stores that reduce the number of trips required. To sum it up. I am for the high occupancy part of HOT. I see the toll part as a sales tool for people to do some comparison shopping. Lets see... as a commuter I need to get to work on this route at this time of day. I can pick up two or three passengers or I can pay $4 and drive alone. In either case I save fifteen minutes on my normal thirty minute commute. Is fifteen minutes privacy worth $4? Is meeting two or three of my neighbors worth it? Or my third option is to drive alone on the regular lanes, have half an hour of privacy and keep the $4. Or I can buy an Accura RL and have a fantasy about their advertising as I sit in traffic. For what it is worth, the Citizen's Advisory Committee was disbanded even though there are still provisions in the law for its existence. In one sense, the CAC was a venue to muzzle the dissidents. In another, it was a way to get a broader public audience. Depended on which party was in power. The powers of darkness will use the toll part of HOT as a way to get the unrepentant slugs to conform to the norms of society. quote: Originally posted by goober [br]Dick, I'm curious as to where your numbers come from because you make no references. The numbers appear to be credible, so, I presume that some of your numbers came from news articles and elsewhere. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your diligence in supporting your points on traffic -- you appear to be quite knowledgeable about the subject. So, are you for or against HOT? Goober dickboyd@aol.com ...and thus ending your history lecture on NOVA infrastructure....

Baz Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote Baz Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Dec 2004 at 11:05am
	Roadrunner....kinda my point. One acronym I learned in the Army. "KISS". "Keep It Simple Stupid". On this forum, I think a 1-2 page report is overkill. Plus...Does anyone else just see it as rambling on and on...and on. In the end, is it even coherent?? So much for the Introduction-Body-Conclusion that I was taught.

Admin Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 25 Jul 2001 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote Admin Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Dec 2004 at 4:19pm
	Baz and RoadRunner, I have corresponded with DickBoyd over the years and specifically asked him to join this forum a couple of weeks ago because he has a tremendous amount of information and knowledege on transportation issues for this area. As you can probably tell, he knows what he is talking about and the information he shares can help us (slugs) address commuting problems. As for the long posts, I okay with them. I have tried to post links to information but if the link or page is removed, the information and link are broken. Hence, the best way is to just post it on the forum. I've got plenty of disk space, so that's not a problem. I want to see this forum as open discussion with disagreement on the issue, not how the issue is presented.

dickboyd Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 13 Nov 2004 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote dickboyd Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Dec 2004 at 7:55pm
	Only if they ask questions about slugs on Shirley Highway and Dave isn't one of the other contestants.[:)] quote: Originally posted by Baz [br]dickboyd, ever thought about being a contestant on Jeopardy? dickboyd@aol.com

goober Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 28 Oct 2004 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2	Post Options Post Reply Quote goober Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Dec 2004 at 11:12am
	DickBoyd, You said, �People like Joe Alexander, who was a Supervisor in Fairfax County would even turn his head and make a spitting gesture and sound at the mention of slugs or van pools.� So, what do you think of the current supervisors in Fairfax? Prince William�s Board of County Supervisors appear to be duped because no one�s opposing or at the least, questioning the contractors' proposals. Hopefully, the meeting being spearheaded by Hirons will be fruitful. Are you attending [?] Goober

dickboyd Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 13 Nov 2004 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote dickboyd Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Dec 2004 at 7:17pm
	Sadly, I will not be attending. I live in Browns Valley, California. The nearest traffic signal is twelve miles. The nearest park and ride is seven miles. But the drivers don't commute to Virginia. Park and rides for casual car pools are a big secret. Please don't tell anyone. CALTRANS thinks they will be taken over as places to sell used cars. Mass transit proponents will build a train station. Ask me about parking in Crystal City on state owned property sometime. Good luck to those slugs that are attending public meetings. While I was in Virginia, I found Senator Dick Saslaw (D) and Delegate Jim Dillard (R)to be very helpful to the cause of free flow on Shirley. Vivian Watts was helpful early on until she joined the VRE/METRO forces while she served as Sevretary of Transportation. Jack Kay of JHK Traffic consulting was also very helpful. But don't approach him until you understand traffic consultants. Jack is a good speaker if you need someone for Kiwanis or the Chamber of Commerce or a professional society. Albert Dwoskin, a mall developer was also helpful. But don't approach him until you understand how he makes a living. Think Donald Trump on a larger scale without the publicity. How politically savvy are the people (slugs) that will be attending? Is there a game plan for presentations? Do you know what the margins were in the politicians' last elections? Do the slugs know people that vote in the politicians district? Which of the slugs work on reelection committes? Mentioning the vote results to a politician is considered a threat. Backpedal that information unless you are sure you can get the votes to throw the scoundrel out and that the new scoundrel will do your bidding. What do I think of the politicians? That isn't the question. What do I think of the voters? Are they willing to make a good case for their point of view? Being able to form a coalition with other interests is key. Several times I had the pleasure of meeting Senator Proxmire. Once on a flight to Chicago, once in Madison at the home of his home secretary. First question from him was "do you vote in Wisconsin"? That is the test of a politician. Do they respond to the people that vote for them or that can potentially vote for them or influence the people that vote for them? Or do they respond only to the contributors that pay for their campaigns? Can they politely ignore those that do not pose a threat to their holding office. Keep in the back of your mind that a politicians job is to get elected and once elected to get reelected. If the people don't vote, the politicians job is easy. He doesn't have to make hard decisions. He doesn't have to set policy. He only has to listen to those that take the time and courtesy to talk to him. What the politician thinks is not important unless the politician acts only on what he thinks is important and that is not in agreement with what his constituents want. If there is disagreement, get another politician. Remember the unemployment rate in politicians is at least 50%. I used to see Virginia delegates at the grocery store, or in the underground at Crystal City. They impressed me in being able to conduct an on the spot poll of what people in their districts thought on an issue and being able to identify people that would take their message back to others. Mahlon Anderson of AAA would be a good person to have on your side. Bob Chase would also be a good ally. Slugs will always be in the minority, but their actions help the finances of the majority. Except the majority doesn't know that because the slugs don't tell their message in a way that can be understood. Dave tries, but he needs some help. He can't carry it alone. quote: Originally posted by goober [br]DickBoyd, ... So, what do you think of the current supervisors in Fairfax? Prince William... Hopefully, the meeting being spearheaded by Hirons will be fruitful. Are you attending [?] Goober dickboyd@aol.com

dickboyd Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 13 Nov 2004 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote dickboyd Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 Dec 2004 at 2:14pm
	HOT WIIFM. What's In It for Me. Even though I live in California, slug lines anywhere are to my benefit. Why do slugs benefit me? Slugs reduce the competition for highway dollars. California gets back about $0.80 in Federal funds of every fuel tax dollar. Compare this to Massachusetts that gets back $2.80 for every tax dollar collected. Slugs reduce demand for new roads. Slugs recognize the benefits of filling the empty seats before asking for more. Slugs recognize the value of personal time and family values. Why pour money as freely as concrete when school systems suffer lack of funding? Slugs have time to coach their children's soccer teams, organize the PTA and sing in the choir. Why should I pay to have people sit alone in their cars? Areas that had rapid growth in World War II have the largest slug base. Washington, DC, Oakland, CA, etc. If you are looking for support, ask the slugs to write a letter to their cousin in Keokuk. Explain how slugs benefit them and ask the cousin to write a letter to their Senator and Representative. Those that benefit don't know they benefit because they don't know. The slugs are much too silent about the service they provide as passengers. quote: Originally posted by Bob [br]I would like to request any information that slugs may have on potential allies in our fight against HOT, ... There must be some allies we havent identified. dickboyd@aol.com