hybrids get them off HOV

NoSUV,

I don't know the figures concerning hybrid demand in light of the recent increases in gas prices (even though the price is settling some temporarily), but would like to know the backorder levels that existed prior to and subsequent to the hikes in prices.

Me thinkst higher gas prices are the catalyst to generate increased sales of more fuel-friendly vehicles (hybrids included in that category). Seems to me that probably stacks up as a more likely incentive than the exemption.

I'll grant that expiration of the exemption may be suppressing demand somewhat, but isn't the reality this: No politician (notice I didn't say statesman) in their "right mind" (e.g. self-serving mode) will wittingly allow the exemption to expire in light of recent events.

The expiration of the exemption is a non-starter. My money follows the money (votes=currency). The exemption is safe for another year or 2.

most humbly offered.

NoSb

SOV because you can, HOV because you care!

Ok, don't understand the angst reflected there, but here goes again...

Hybrids (which are NOT clean fuel vehicles) exemptions are not at risk. That should be straightforward in the light of recent events, but I'll go one step further. The politicos don't have the fortitude to stand up and say "no" to something that isn't helpful to reducing the regional challenges (which also intertwine with national challenges) of pollution and congestion.

There are vehicles that contribute on multiple levels to reducing the problems associated with petroleum based fuels, but the politicians haven't afforded like benefit to those. Just for the sake of discussion let's look at ethanol.

Ethanol doesn't have a "constituency" on the supply or demand side of the equation. Petroleum does. Producers want you to "buy oil". Consumers want to have convenience and price expectations met. Were our politicians able to spend some quality time without the influence of the PACs waiting in the outer office, they might see that ethanol solves many challenges.

Want to reduce dependence on "foreign oil"? Incentivize, produce, distribute, and utilize ethanol.

Ethanol is made from grain...corn. We pay farmers (at the national level) NOT to grow corn. Amazing isn't it? Yet we continue to purchase oil from people who don't like us very much.

Do E85 vehicles receive the same package of breaks that gas/electric vehicles do? No. And they won't. Oil companies, car companies and consumers continue to pressure the politicians to do the WRONG thing time and again.

I like the gas/elec vehicles because they get better gas mileage--that's the only positive there. Battery disposal remains to be seen 5-6 years down the road. Hybrids reduce consumption on a per vehicle basis. The exemption does little to nothing to reduce congestion (not just commute, but parking) which doesn't help on the other levels mentioned. Want to help reduce pollution? Run on battery power in the mainlines where the average speed enables even the worst of the hybrid options to use electric.

Like I said, people can feel good about buying a hybrid (and you can pat yourself on the back for better mileage than many vehicles on the road), but it doesn't wean us from oil and the exemption doesn't reduce the number of vehicles on the road.

The exemption is safe because Ford, Toyota and Honda have deep pockets and the VA state legislature incumbents want to stay there (mostly). No one is going to step forward with something that 1. isn't popular and 2. jeopardizes their position (not mutually exclusive or inclusive).

Status quo with a positive spin normally trumps a common sense approach.

NoSb

SOV because you can, HOV because you care!

quote:

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Originally posted by Wagonman
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quote:

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Originally posted by N_or_S_bound

The exemption is safe because Ford, Toyota and Honda have deep pockets and the VA state legislature incumbents want to stay there (mostly). No one is going to step forward with something that 1. isn't popular and 2. jeopardizes their position (not mutually exclusive or inclusive).

Status quo with a positive spin normally trumps a common sense approach.

NoSb

SOV because you can, HOV because you care!

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I think the hybrid exemption is going to end. During the last session of the VA legislature there were a couple bills favorable to hybrids and they all were either withdrawn or voted down. I believe this was due to a lot of carpoolers writing to their representatives and the realization that the HOVs are overcrowded. I believe the politically safe thing will be for the delegates and senators to let the exemption quietly expire in just under a year.
There is also the issue of the new federal law for the hybrid exemption. Virginia is going to have to follow this and I don't think our HOVs would qualify. Under the law you need to have a certain average speed in the HOVs 90% of the time. If they measure in certain places there is no way this will be attainable. Second, the hybrids will have to have a specific emissions rating. This will get rid of at least half of them. None of the Honda hybrids without the California emissions package will meet any clean emissions standard. This might not be true of the redesigned Civic hybrid that is coming out soon.

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Wagonman, you might want to check with the VA legislative candidates on extending the exemption. In this case, I think NoSb has it nailed. So far, I've asked 6 candidates - 3 have answered that they support extending the exemption, 3 have not responded. One of those who hasn't responded (Kaine) advertises on his website that he supports toll roads.

"After the campaigns".

Ok, good point, let's see:

Let's see how many people who actually use HOV as HOV will get out and vote. Even before voting, who is going to express their opinion (which drives which way they'll vote) through the various forums available in this democratic republic?

I'm thinking there will be plenty of folks who "vote their wallets" that are sitting in the main lines wondering about the "lexus lanes" (I don't like the term personally, but trying to reflect their attitude here). My money is on them voting for anything that reduces their congestion WITHOUT affecting them (that's how we like to vote, zero sum in our favor & at someone else's expense).

We know which way hybrid drivers are going to vote and I expect they'll be pretty active in voicing their support of candidates who talk about extending the exemption.

Then again, do the campaigns really matter? Big biz runs the elections. Those who come up with the cash make the decisions. Some people are so stuck on keeping what cash they have that they won't support anything that is a long shot.

The money is there amongst the commuting populace, but that populace isn't united (if this site is any indication of that).

NoSb's predictions (ALWAYS a dangerous proposition):
1. Hybrid exemption extended
2. HOT becomes a reality
3. HOV will pay eventually to use HOT if not immediately
4. Effective clean fuel alternatives will not become viable due to manipulation of prices and corporate influences in the elections (national, state and local).

I think 4 is enough, will make the %'s easier to figure out later.

I'm liking the higher prices at the pump, it is making the commute much smoother these days in the HOV! (Is that twisted or what!?!)

NoSb

SOV because you can, HOV because you care!

If that's the case, NoSUV, then we're all screwed! But why should I wonder when it's the big money that drives political decisions anyway! Do you actually think for a minute that the car companies are selling solutions to our oil, congestion and polution problems? Hey, No SUV, "the emperor wears no clothes!" (Google that for a history lesson on the ethanol burning engine and the Bush family business). Auto makers are using marketing to add product choices! They have not created an environmentally friendly choice, they have created a choice that appeals to your "green" side and let's you sleep at night thinking you are helping the situation. Wake up; "Light" cigarettes still cause cancer! Hybrids still burn gas (not to mention the environmental impact of those disposed batteries)! Every car in HOV with less than 3 passengers adds congestion! You, and every other hybrid driver, have bought into a feel-good marketing ploy that clogs our streets with yet another fossil fuel burning vehicle. And the "better gas milage" argument is moot as long as they can make non-hybrids that equal hybrid MPG claims.

NoSb, I applaud your argument, reasoning and deduction. Ethanol is a viable solution, as is bio-diesel and others; renewable, plentiful, relatively clean, and domestic-produced. But these options won't be profitable for the fuel production companies until the unit cost is up to about $5.00 a gallon (which may happen soon). Until then, the policitians will bleed us dry with taxes, tolls (more taxes), oh and did I say taxes?! Don't you know; development and construction is good for the economy. Construction of toll roads will help the economy at the expense of our pocketbooks. And auto manufacturers will continue to profit from our needs, good intentions and ignorance.