hybrids get them off HOV

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   But don't you agree that less consumption of conventional fuel is needed? As has been pointed out but several, there needs to be a consumer incentive to have less consumption. Although HOV helps on the commute, it does absolutely nothing for the vehicle when it's not on the commute - and those who are permanent slugs are VERY guilty of that (100% of their miles are relatively "bad" miles for conservation/environment). So, what incentives can be given to bring down the consumer cost for vehicles that can ONLY have less conventional fuel consumption? 

	Hybrid exemption is one, but not the only or even best way. Others include banning all POVs from the express lanes, and configuring tanks/gas pumps so only ethanol can go it (remember "regular" leaded gas vs unleaded) - and giving those vehicles an express lane exemption as well.

	The key remains to use less - and the only thing the legislature has done to help that is the HOV and hybrid exemptions in the bus lanes.

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NoSUV Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote NoSUV Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Sep 2005 at 2:12pm
	But don't you agree that less consumption of conventional fuel is needed? As has been pointed out but several, there needs to be a consumer incentive to have less consumption. Although HOV helps on the commute, it does absolutely nothing for the vehicle when it's not on the commute - and those who are permanent slugs are VERY guilty of that (100% of their miles are relatively "bad" miles for conservation/environment). So, what incentives can be given to bring down the consumer cost for vehicles that can ONLY have less conventional fuel consumption? Hybrid exemption is one, but not the only or even best way. Others include banning all POVs from the express lanes, and configuring tanks/gas pumps so only ethanol can go it (remember "regular" leaded gas vs unleaded) - and giving those vehicles an express lane exemption as well. The key remains to use less - and the only thing the legislature has done to help that is the HOV and hybrid exemptions in the bus lanes.

N_or_S_bound Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 20 May 2005 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote N_or_S_bound Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Sep 2005 at 2:53pm
	Reducing is most definitely a part of the solution. I am amazed at how people still insist on driving their vehicles the way they do and they probably complain as much as anyone else about the rising price of gas. An IMMEDIATE partial solution is to modify our driving habits. AND, this takes no material or technical solution to make it happen (e.g. it's FREE). Interesting this website is there for all to read. Gives tips to saving fuel, yet who is willing to change one iota how they drive? http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/drive.shtml Not to brag on myself, but I've reduced my speed to the speed limit. I also accelerate slower and decelerate earlier (without brakes). I monitor my average economy (per trip) and allow it to somewhat govern my driving habits. Of note on that website: Most vehicles are engineered for most efficient gas mileage in the 45-55 mph range. Pigheaded Americans won't accept that even in the name of "national defense". Use less, sure. That IS a piece of the equation. I wouldn't suboptimize an overall system though to achieve efficiency in only one part. How much impact does increased fuel efficiency have over what time period and at what expense to other portions of the system? And which system? One challenge for hybrid elec/gas technology is that the most efficiency is realized at the lower speed city driving, not highway speeds. One comparison (viewed from overall impact to the entire system): A vehicle that gets 25 mpg and carries 3 people (minimum) in the HOV equates to 75 mpg. One Hybrid Civic at highway speed gets 47 mpg (pulled from that website's EPA fuel economy numbers) with one person in the HOV equates to 47 mpg. Which is better? Ok, the system here is HOV make sure you limit your response to that system. I don't think anyone said hybrids aren't a part of the solution. I think in ALL cases HOW we choose to use them and existing vehicles is worthy of serious immediate consideration for trying to put less pressure on the system. Oh, edit and editorial comment: I don't count on government to do anything FOR me. I know they will do things TO me though. NoSb SOV because you can, HOV because you care!

NoSUV Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote NoSUV Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Sep 2005 at 4:19pm
	NoSb: the problem with your example of effective mpg is that you are only comparing the miles used in the commute. To be fair, you need to also look at the miles driven while NOT on the commute - that gives the REAL figure. Limiting the discussion to just hours of HOV and hybrid exemption discounts the actual value of less consumption - which is what the incentive is all about.

NoSUV Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote NoSUV Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Sep 2005 at 4:20pm
	By the way, both major governor candidates have now responded to my request for their position: Kaine AND Kilgore support the hybrid exemption.

NoSUV Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote NoSUV Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Sep 2005 at 4:36pm
	Besides, if we want to make a fair comparison with the overall consumption, we'd have to look at the average mpg for the non-hybrids and the hybrids both during and not during the commute. It's unlikely that the average conventional car is getting 25 mpg (it only takes a few pickups and SUVs to skew the average). To make the math easy, use the figures of a hybrid which averages 50 mpg (many of the compacts do - some get above 60 mpg - so this figure might be low) and compare that with your conventional car getting 25 mpg (none of the SUVs do this, so if anything this figure is high) and look at 15K miles commuting and 5K miles not. Interestingly, both will use 400 gallons. Carpool 1 time with that hybrid, and it's already better. Change the % to more miles not commuting (like many slugs) and the advantage becomes even more clear. Want to have less consumption? Insist on more breaks for hybrids besides express lane exemption.

MDC Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 04 Dec 2002 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote MDC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Sep 2005 at 6:17pm
	I think we want SOV's out of HOV. That will encourage more slugs, which will reduce consumption much more than getting more people to buy overpriced, new cars. Hybrids are great, but they are causing increased consumption when they clog up HOV lanes. This isn't arguable, so don't even try.

NoSUV Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote NoSUV Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Sep 2005 at 7:31am
	quote: Originally posted by MDC [br]I think we want SOV's out of HOV. That will encourage more slugs, which will reduce consumption much more than getting more people to buy overpriced, new cars. Hybrids are great, but they are causing increased consumption when they clog up HOV lanes. This isn't arguable, so don't even try. Of course it's arguable. Why can't all of the HOVs be hybrids only? Isn't that the way to solve both problems? However, there are too few hybrids to change the express lanes to HOV hybrids alone, so the interim step needs to be made for the express lanes to allow SOV hybrids. After all, didn't you say the cars were overpriced?

MDC Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 04 Dec 2002 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote MDC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Sep 2005 at 7:39am
	See, what did I say? You have no plausible, or comprehensible argument. SOV hybrids is the interim for hybrid only HOV? That's the best you can come up with? Screw all who don't own hybrids, or want to spend hours getting from point A to point B using busses and metro.

NoSUV Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote NoSUV Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Sep 2005 at 7:59am
	quote: Originally posted by MDC [br]See, what did I say? You have no plausible, or comprehensible argument. SOV hybrids is the interim for hybrid only HOV? That's the best you can come up with? Screw all who don't own hybrids, or want to spend hours getting from point A to point B using busses and metro. MDC - almost as silly as miltrades rant. Almost... Remember that price is determined by supply and demand, so when gas supplies are short and demand is constant, prices go up. How can demand be reduced? Go back to the major gas crisis of early 70s and institute buses only into the express lanes. HOV-40. And since hybrids get better mileage than conventional cars even when not on the commute, provide better incentive than cash to get consumers to purchase them. Why not hybrids and buses only in the express lanes? Would you help out the nation by buying a hybrid?

N_or_S_bound Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 20 May 2005 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote N_or_S_bound Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Sep 2005 at 8:29am
	NoSUV, Sorry man, I think I did define the portion of the overall system I was looking at and that was adequately qualified to limit discussion to just that one point. The external benefits and impacts of that narrowly defined system result in some trades that reduce the benefits many would like to promote. Consider the impact to parking and environment when SOVs are encouraged. This is an offset to the non-HOV miles you described. I think I granted you some limited benefit of the elec/gas combination. My major point is this flocking to an overpriced technology (much like the premium vehicle manufacturers had on SUVs and pickups during the 80s and 90s). I don't want to play their game and be subject to their marketing schema. Consider that SUVs/pickups DIDN'T decrease in price or devalue as fast because the DEMAND was so great. The price of the technology isn't the driving factor. The fear of gas prices will keep the prices elevated for years...until they come out with the next marketing gimmick for us to buy into (and they will exploit that then too). Hybrid gas/elec is a marketing ploy with little overall effect. Give me a VW Jetta TDI that gets 50mpg on diesel and I can burn biodiesel to help the environment. Guess what though? The TDI doesn't qualify for an HOV exemption! The marketing message is being received and replayed by hybrid owners (who frankly don't give a flip about the OTHER impacts in our area) to the politicos. The manipulated buyers then make the politicos feel good about taking the campaign contributions from the automobile manufacturers (and probably the oil companies too) by telling them how beneficial hybrids are to the NoVa region. I do grant with the last couple days backups caused by gawkers of accidents that the hybrids are getting better "gas mileage" (is it really gas mileage if you're using batteries?) as they sit in the traffic caused by congestion exacerbated by accidents. And therein lies the challenge for the electrics, they get better "mileage" when sitting in mainline traffic. EPA mileage for Toyota Prius, 60 city, 47 highway. That logic alone says: put them in the mainlanes, unless they meet HOV criteria. I am encouraged though....I see more and more hybrids carrying more than one person in the vehicle. This trend is a positive one. Most are husband/wife combos from all appearances, but that is a step in the right direction. More people per car = less cars on the road which is a part of many answers to the overall challenges we face. NoSb SOV because you can, HOV because you care!