Hybrid vehicles threaten commuters' trips

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   The statement made was that the Saturn was better for the environment than a hybrid. That statement is false. A qualifier was put on the statement that the Saturn had 3 or 4 people in it. Under that circumstance alone, the statement might be true. However, if the Saturn does NOT carry 3-4 passengers, the environment is worse off. Therefor, protocol needs to compare the miles driven without passengers to the miles with passengers to claim his car is better than a SOV hybrid.

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NoSUV Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote NoSUV Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Aug 2005 at 3:24pm
	The statement made was that the Saturn was better for the environment than a hybrid. That statement is false. A qualifier was put on the statement that the Saturn had 3 or 4 people in it. Under that circumstance alone, the statement might be true. However, if the Saturn does NOT carry 3-4 passengers, the environment is worse off. Therefor, protocol needs to compare the miles driven without passengers to the miles with passengers to claim his car is better than a SOV hybrid.

MDC Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 04 Dec 2002 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote MDC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Aug 2005 at 6:13pm
	Every post you make NoSUV, you get deeper into it. Less cars on the road, no matter what type, is better for the environment. That's not a "might" or "maybe"..

Wagonman Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 05 Aug 2003 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote Wagonman Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Aug 2005 at 7:00am
	quote: Originally posted by NoSUV [br]The statement made was that the Saturn was better for the environment than a hybrid. That statement is false. A qualifier was put on the statement that the Saturn had 3 or 4 people in it. Under that circumstance alone, the statement might be true. However, if the Saturn does NOT carry 3-4 passengers, the environment is worse off. Therefor, protocol needs to compare the miles driven without passengers to the miles with passengers to claim his car is better than a SOV hybrid. No, you are misinformed. How many times do I have to say it? The Honda Civic hybrid and Insight hybrid that are sold here have an emissions rating of Tier 2 bin 9. This is DIRTY and isn't any better than a regular Civic. The lowest rating I could find for any Saturn from model year 2004 is Tier 2 bin 8. This means that all Saturns from that year are CLEANER than the civic hybrid at Tier 2 bin 9. Now with 3 people in it, the Saturn will be many times cleaner. This is why the clean fuel plates are a joke! The Prius would be cleaner than any Saturn, but not anywhere near as good for the environment as 3 people riding in most cars.

NoSUV Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote NoSUV Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Aug 2005 at 7:20am
	Again, you have completely missed the point. IF the Saturn spends 50% of its miles commuting with 3 people, it still spends the other 50% of its miles NOT commuting. When you compare the Saturn during the non commute miles, the Prius, by your own admission, wins hands down. When you compare the 100% miles of the Prius to the 50% commute and the 50% non-commute, it's very likely that the Prius STILL wins

emancilla Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 30 Sep 2003 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote emancilla Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Aug 2005 at 9:01am
	Again, you always want to have the last word...

SpongeBob Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote SpongeBob Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Aug 2005 at 9:59am
	As for NoSUV's argument, it's actually closer to reality than he traditionally stumbles. The HOV exemption was to encourage high-bred sales with the idea of expanding the number of gas-electrics in the general vehicle population. The benefits of the high-breds are presumed to be spread across commuting and non-commuting trips. However, my wife puts about 325 miles per week commuting (with 2-3 Potomac Mills slugs in our minivan) and only about 20-30 miles per week running errands or doing other things. I'd guess that ratio holds for most people. Divide the sum of her emissions per mile by the number of passenger miles driven, and her 22 MPG minivan is still better than a solo smug in a high-bred. Therefore, NoSUV is still wrong, which fact merely delights me.

N_or_S_bound Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 20 May 2005 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote N_or_S_bound Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Aug 2005 at 10:12am
	I do wonder what percentage of hybrid owners would keep their hybrids if/when the HOV exemption goes away. I can't imagine (although I've admittedly never ridden in one) that they ride very comfortably. The Honda Civic Hybrid always looks to be bouncing down the road. Seems a bit light in the caboose maybe. Just in my opinion (uneducated though it is) though. I think once the exemption goes away (if it does), we'll see just how altruistic folks really are when it comes to hybrid technologies. As I've said before, WE (that an inclusive we) should've done more starting in the 70s to pressure the industries to respond to the problems surrounding oil (environment, supply, politics) rather than allow ourselves to be manipulated by the industry to buy ever larger, less fuel efficient vehicles (SUV? GMAB). I'm not against the hybrid TECHNOLOGY, although it seems to be less worthwhile than other alternatives. If one uses the argument that "price will come down with numbers", the same could be said for ethanol and CNG which are cleaner than hybrids (when you factor in the disposal of lethal batteries at the end of the useful life). I'm waiting for hydrogen (yeah, right). NoSb SOV because you can, HOV because you care!

Wagonman Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 05 Aug 2003 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote Wagonman Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Aug 2005 at 12:33pm
	quote: Originally posted by NoSUV [br]Again, you have completely missed the point. IF the Saturn spends 50% of its miles commuting with 3 people, it still spends the other 50% of its miles NOT commuting. When you compare the Saturn during the non commute miles, the Prius, by your own admission, wins hands down. When you compare the 100% miles of the Prius to the 50% commute and the 50% non-commute, it's very likely that the Prius STILL wins No, I didn't miss your point. My last line addressed the Prius versus Saturn comparison taking into account commuting verus non-commuting miles. Your 50/50 split is not reasonable. A 75/25 split of commuting versus non-commuting miles is much more reasonable. I ran the numbers quickly comparing 3 Priuses versus 2 Saturn Vues with 75/25 splits and 15,000 miles a year. For the main three pollutants regulated that I could quickly look up the Vue wins by a slim amount, but the Saturn Vue is very dirty at bin 8. An average car would be considered bin 5(Honda Accord) and that would beat the Prius by a wide margin even with a 50/50 split.

NoSUV Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote NoSUV Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Aug 2005 at 3:38pm
	OK, Wagonman. Now compare to SUVs. Perhaps the HOV lanes should ban SUVs and allow hybrids. Eventually, with legislation, we can get the auto industry to offer ONLY hybrids.

EnufisEnuf Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 29 Dec 2004 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote EnufisEnuf Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Aug 2005 at 4:37pm
	Ladies, ladies! The hybrid technology is okay. I agree the Prius is prob. about the best. Some of these other hybrids, like the Accord, do very little difference in terms of gas mileage, etc. The bigger picture though is this: HOV stands for high occupancy. If you drive single w/ a hybrid how are you fulfilling the high occupancy idea? Does it really help you are single but get better gas mileage? No. Do you clog up HOV? Yes. Do slugs/drivers who take 3 or more like it? No. Is VA reconsidering? Yes. Hopefully they will do away w/ the hybrid exemption. We can only hope. Until then, we just have to deal w/ them and their smug attitudes. Why they post on our boards, I'll never understand.