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SpongeBob View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SpongeBob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2005 at 4:42pm
No Bob, I'm 100% sure that it is a variable rate. Think about it: no one could be forced off the lanes once on; they would automatically clog. The whole dang thing relies on variable, i.e., dynamic, tolling which forces people off the toll roads as the per-mile rate rises. It absolutely has to change in each section, otherwise the system would have to keep track of each car's journey. With dynamic tolling, the system only has to charge every car that passes under the gantry the same amount -- it presumes, indeed it knows, that every car passing under it traveled X miles from the last entrance. The gantries and the tolling are linked to the distances from the entrances. As you travel through each section, you are charged the prevailing rate for that section. Which can change based on the amount of congestion.

Your suspicion that a single rate is unfair is why they are setting the system up with multiple gantries. There actually won't be a gantry at the entrance. There will be a gantry just BEFORE each entrance, charging a toll for the road you drove over since the previous gantry/entrance pair.

The sequence, since I'm being as clear as usual... is get on at an entrance, drive 3 (or 4 or 5) miles, then pass under a gantry that charges your Smartcard, say, $1.00 for 3 miles. Immediately after going under the gantry, there will be the next entrance to the toll road. Repeat. Exits can be positioned anywhere in the system, and likewise only have to charge for the distance from the last entrance. They do not need to calculate the whole trip, just the last section.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 2005 at 9:10am
Good editorial on Belway and 95 HOT. Bob

http://www.potomacnews.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WPN%2FMGArticle%2FWPN_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1128767809566&path=!news!opinion
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote keith770 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 2005 at 12:15pm
I think it is quite clear HOT as it stands will kill slugging, but to me there are primary considerations:

Goals:

Reduce waste of gasoline
reduce generation of air pollution
reduce waste of human time


To this point
1 HOV-3 (at least) ONLY must exist as they were
2 The primary force that I see driving people out farther is HOUSING cost. I could not afford a 300K house or a 200K house or even a 150K house (Search:June 2004 to October 2004). I had to go out to Ruther Glen to stay in our cost bracket. This was OUR consideration for where we would live. We HATE the 4 hours a day I need to commute, but even in Fredericksburg there is no room for families with one wage earner to live. The last I saw, prices are soaring to to new elevations at around 350K for a single family home with 2 or 3 bedrooms. Perhaps my family of 5 could live in an efficiency with 100 square feet, but I suspect at that point, we would move to a more FAMILY friendly area.

Under our FAMILY friendly administration (NOT) planning needs to include a way to help families to stay within a normal rather than an extreme commute
3 HOV 4 should be reconsidered (this would HELP slugging)
4 enforcement need to be increased with a recorded 20% violation
5 Why not use the funds for violation to extend the HOV
6 I like the idea of efficient vehicles in general, but they need to share as well. How about an HOV-2 phase in (or is this too complcated for the police force)?
7 I could not xcare less if the express lanes are toll at any other time. Just not toll during commute and no NON-HOV at any price during that time. Rich or well off people have a moral responsibility to help manage our world without trashing it as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n/a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2005 at 2:09pm
Hi Keith, welcome to the forum!

Please review the many, many messges dedicated to this topic for in-depth discussions on each of your concerns. Needless to say that HOT will have a negative impact on slugging and commuting in general. The needs of the general commuting public, however, are not the primary concern of those who are in power to make decisions regarding the future of HOT, its nothing more than another source of taxation and revenue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Frank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2005 at 8:26am
Tonight we get to hear how the advisory board will advise. Hope to see you there at 7 PM.

November 1, 2005 - 7pm - 9:30pm
Springfield Interchange Project Office
6400 Commerce Street, Springfield
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SpongeBob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2005 at 11:20am
Bob: You were half right... turns out that Clark/Shirley's proposal does not use dynamic pricing, but one-time pricing. A total disaster, of course. Here is the relevent discussion from the 10/11 meeting:

"Harf – Would travelers rates change over the length of the trip?
Fluor – Yes. Changes would have to be posted in advance of tolls
in order for traveler to make informed decision to pay toll or
move to GP lanes.
Clark/Shirley – Travelers would know in advance the toll rate
and won’t change for the entire trip."

Ridiculous to allow Alexandria drivers to pay $.30 a mile, the same as Fredericksburg drivers, to access the toll road -- the northern end of the toll road will totally clog with drivers willing to pay $1 to go from Duke to the Pentagon at speed.

If I thought Clark was going to win, I'd actually be concerned about this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2005 at 11:55am
Sponge,

Thanks for looking this up. I have put a lot of thought into this and I think I understand a little more. The thing is so complex it is difficult to get a handle on even the terminology. But when, for example Clark says that the toll will not change, I think what they mean is that when you get on in Fredericksburg (in 2020 or whenever) you will have a sign that says toll to Pentagon $22. That is what they mean when they say it is fixed. The trip cost to the Pentagon will be fixed, but it will consist of 20? different segments, each of which has its own toll rate. So when you enter at Fredericksburg, the computer freezes all the segments ahead. This means that you could be paying less than the guy next to you. That is what they mean with fixed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2005 at 12:48pm
Here is a link for the Minneapolis system that is apparently the only thing comparable to what is being proposed here. The San Diego system has just one entrance and one exit Take a look at the text below also (pertaining to Minneapolis)

http://www.tollroadsnews.com/cgi-bin/a.cgi/wZbzgpEaEdmcEIJ61nsxIA


Tolls for the full length of the toll lanes will vary between 50c and $8.00 depending on what rate is needed to keep traffic in the lanes to levels which allow free flow to be maintained. Occupancy approaching congestion levels in just one link will trigger toll rate increases in all links with a lag to ensure people already in the network are not tolled higher than the rate they saw on the message sign when they entered. And when the most congested link experiences lower occupancy, all toll rates will fall. RFID equipment will be mounted on gantries just downstream of the entry/exit points. Enforcement for the moment will be by cops in cruisers alerted to a vehicle without a transponder by a light near the toll point. The cops will have portable readers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2005 at 1:42pm
I cannot believe that Northern Virginia commuters that use this HOV system are going to just sit back and let this happen. This is flat out going to ruin the most successful HOV corridor in the country. I would venture a guess that 95 percent of politicians and journalists have not even spent five minutes looking at what is actually being proposed here. Wake up! There is not enough spare capacity on this road for toll vehicles NOW, much less in 10 or 20 years. We are being taken for a ride, big time. HOT conversions of successful HOV systems should be illegal under federal law since these are interstates. HOT conversions are totally different from HOT new-builds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SpongeBob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2005 at 4:00pm
Forever Free don't mean squat. When the big money boys from NYC come to town to sign the contract, they'll have a new little addendum: to wit, should the revenue turn out to be less-than-X, then the state will repeal or alter the HOV requirement.

I don't understand why we don't just push for the obvious thing?

Why is everyone so unable to see that we only need to insist on Free HOV during the existing hours? In other words, tolls for everyone, including HOV, during non-rush-hours. During rush hours, the lanes are only available for HOV-3 (or -4)

Think: nothing changes for the ride-sharing communities, and the lost revenue is made up by charging HOV's during non-rush-hours. Right now, HOV will be free (supposedly) every minute of every day. Why not let them toll EVERY vehicle EXCEPT during rush-hour?
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