Go Yellow

So NoSUV, you would use the "even a broken watch is correct twice a day" theory in your reasoning? Not very compelling!

While I agree that hybrids use more of the potential stored energy in a gallon of gas by charging a battery with energy for later use, the increase in effeciency is negligable and cannot be accurately mesured by MPG alone. Hybrids are much more complex and expensive to build, and to buy (incentives and tax credits are bait). What we don't know is how long hybrids will last, how expensive the maintainence and repairs will be (to you pocketbook and to the environment), and what the long term effects will be of thousands of those huge batteries in our landfills. Of course you won't have to worry about that, but your grandchildren will!

At best, hybrids offer baby steps forward from the standard set by the most effecient internal combustion engines. And of course the ultimate goal should be to convert to renewable fuel, like ethanol or biodiesel. Focusing on increasing the fuel effeciency of gas burning engines distracts from the real issues; our insane dependency on foriegn produced, non-renewable, highly-polluting fossil fuels. And don't forget, your hybrid burns the same gas that my car does. Even if your car gets 30MPG to my 20, or 40, or even 50MPG for that matter, that is still very, very ineffecient! And despite your sense of superiority and nobility, it does nothing to solve our problems.

Hybrids are a distraction, a ruse, marketing hype, a boondoggle, just another product to sell, an attempt to perpetuate a fossil fuel culture that is profitable to marekters, a way to appeal to people who want to do the right thing, but don't know how. Hybrid buyers have been duped into thinking that they can buy something that will help the problem, when in fact they are perpetuating the problem.

Sorry, the watch is still broken. Let's keep our eyes on the ball. Alternative, renewable fuels are the answer.

quote:

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Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]raymond, once again, let's try using facts. When you go to the websitses of auto manufacturers who have both hybrid and non-hybrid vehicles, you can see the independent agency's mpg rating, as well as the MSRP.

(you knew that the hybrid uses an electric motor as the prime mover, didn't you?)

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The electric motor is not the prime mover of a hybrid. You need to look up the definition. The EPA has admitted that its testing method for MPG is flawed so it isn't much help as an "independant agency".

OK NoSUV, so at least we agree on one thing; renewable fuel is the best long-term solution.

Unfortunately, electricity, while renewable, is not a viable alternate fuel for use in cars, at least not in its current form. Its disappointing that the best solution marketers have so far is gas powered electric generators in hybrid cars; not a big step forward in reaching a long term solution. Present day hybrids are only marginally better than previous "plug-in to recharge" electric cars of yesteryear. Then, the electricity came from coal-fired power plants, now the gas power plant rides around with the batteries under the hood. This is not rocket science! Hybrids also offer dubious improvements in MPG and effeciency over non-hybrids, and at a high cost. Remember, many non-hybrids match or exceed hybrid MPG and ULEV claims.

Unless, of course you fill that hybrid tank with ethanol or biodissel, now we're talking renewable fuel solutions! But if you burn ethanol or biodiesel, why do you need electricity? Hmmmm, You don't! The internal combustion engine is not a bad concept, it reliably does what we expect it to do, and over 15 million cars with ICEs are sold in North America alone. Our choice of fuel is the critical variable here.

And of course you should maximize ridership in those ethanol burining cars, especially in the HOV-3 lanes (BTW, that stands for High Occupancy Vehicle - 3 passenger minimum)!

Emotional arguments? I think not, this is all very logical and reasonable. But it does not support your claims of hybrid supremacy, so I would expect you to disagree. But the personal attacks are not necessary. Let's stick to the issues!

NoSUV, if you want to make a FAIR comparison, hybrids do not run on electric power; they run on a combination of a gas engine and "stored" electric power that was generated by a gas engine (and a small % from the intertia generated by your brakes, created by the forward momentum caused by your gas engine).

Most electricity begins its life with fossil fuels, with the exception of solar, hydro, nuclear or wind produced electricity. So unless your hybrid sprouts a sail, has solar panels on the roof or a mobile nuclear power plant under the hood, it also runs on fossil fuels.

And you should compare fuel economy of a hybrid in real world conditions to a comparable car in real world conditions. You may see those "huge" MPG gains claimed by hybrid marketers shrink. But that's OK, you keep telling yourself that you made a smart decision buying the hybrid. Just don't exepct everyone else to believe it.

NoSUV,
Don't try the SMUG stuff with me! Here are some MPG stats off of a hybrid web site. http://www.hybridcars.com/mileage.html
Notice how the highway mileage is lower (in all but a few cases). Also take a look at those terrible EPA estimates listed for the SUV's (clean fuel hybrids). Once you're done, look at this site http://www.greenercars.com/byclass.html to see autos that perform better than hybrids but don't receive a clean fuel designation. I guess the clean fuel designation has more to do with having a hybrid tag and nothing to do with fuel economy and emissions.
Honda Insight: City 61 Highway 68
Toyota Prius: City 60 Highway 51
Honda Civic: City 48 Highway 51
Toyota Camry: City 43 Highway 37
Honda Accord: City 30 Highway 37
Ford Escape (2wd): City 36 Highway 31
Ford Escape (4wd): City 33 Highway 29
Mercury Mariner: City 33 Highway 29
Toyota Highlander (2wd): City 33 Highway 28
Toyota Highlander (4wd): City 31 Highway 27
Lexus RX 400h: City 31 Highway 27
Lexus GS 450h: City 25 Highway 28
These figures represent EPA test numbers, which are commonly 10 - 20 percent higher than real-world fuel economy for hybrid and conventional vehicles.

I'm not against hybrid technology, I'm against using the technology as a way to bypass a system that is designed to move more people with less vehicles.