Go Yellow

Message Topic Search Topic Options Post Reply Create New Topic Printable Version Translate Topic

   If I were to buy a hybrid, I'd get clean fuel plates.  Can anyone tell me where the clean fuel station is?  Since gasoline isn't a clean fuel, hybrids must be fueling up at some secret location only disclosed to those who purchase a hybrid.  Those hybrids I see at the gas station must be purchasing a newspaper.  

	  Hybrids on the HOV burn just as much gasoline as any four cylinder engine.  Take a look at their MPG stats listing highway mileage LOWER than city mileage.  This is because the hybrid technology works best in stop and go traffic.  Get in the main lanes and get the most out of your investment!  Go Green [xx(]

Author	Message Topic Search Topic Options Post Reply Create New Topic Printable Version Translate Topic
Max_28756 Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Location: Va Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote Max_28756 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 09 Jun 2006 at 1:42pm
	If I were to buy a hybrid, I'd get clean fuel plates. Can anyone tell me where the clean fuel station is? Since gasoline isn't a clean fuel, hybrids must be fueling up at some secret location only disclosed to those who purchase a hybrid. Those hybrids I see at the gas station must be purchasing a newspaper. Hybrids on the HOV burn just as much gasoline as any four cylinder engine. Take a look at their MPG stats listing highway mileage LOWER than city mileage. This is because the hybrid technology works best in stop and go traffic. Get in the main lanes and get the most out of your investment! Go Green [xx(]

N_or_S_bound Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 20 May 2005 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote N_or_S_bound Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 01 Jun 2006 at 10:02am
	Demand may make this a reality yet. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13078150/ NOW, we're talking about COMPREHENSIVE SOLUTIONS and NOT marketing schemes to simply increase profits. NoSb SOV because you can, HOV because you care!

Wagonman Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 05 Aug 2003 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote Wagonman Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 02 Apr 2006 at 5:37pm
	Ethanol from corn isn't the answer. Ethanol from discarded cellulose material will be the answer. It will be much cheaper and the research right now is going to make it possible. Corn ethanol isn't all that efficient, but there are a couple of researchers out there that grossly overstate the energy cost to produce it. They probably get their research money from oil companies. The comment about not making vehicles flex fuel capable is short sighted. The infrastructure isn't there for only using ethanol, biodiesel, etc. Keeping the vehicles flex fuel capable speeds their adoption. The way to keep them using the renewable fuel is to price it lower than petro. Unfortunately, that would be accomplished by taxing petro products higher and politicians are too chicken#$%! to do what needs to be done. They can't get past the short terms costs to see the long term benefits.

n/a Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 17 Dec 2001 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote n/a Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 Mar 2006 at 3:36pm
	Economically, ethinol is marginally more expensive to produce (for now), but still in the ballpark. Of course, as NoSb points out, when you figure in all the subsidies, and other variables like lives lost to foriegn oil, the balance sheet starts lookin' real good for ethinol. There is an issue about energy value per unit of ethinol vs. gas; I think I read that ethinol has about 75% of the energy value per unit, compared to gas at about 120% the cost. But still, there is potential here! Of course it will not happen until the energy companies can establish a maximum per unit cost that will guarantee profitability. That means that when gas reaches a maximum threshold price that begins to negatively affect the bottom line (lower revenue and profits), they will know the basis price they can charge for a unit of ethinol and will have established it as a per unit cost in the market. Does that mean $5. per gallon, or $10. per gallon? I don't know, what is the most you would pay? And of course, since the oil companies have just finished a banner year, we are a long way from that. There is no motivation for them to distribute ethinol and every motivation to lobby against it. Gas is too profitable.

N_or_S_bound Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 20 May 2005 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote N_or_S_bound Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 Mar 2006 at 6:40am
	I don't think I agree with the comment: "the cost of getting ethanol from corn is a tad too high". I don't have access to the numbers in order to run a cost analysis on the entire chain of events it takes to get a barrel of oil or ethanol to market at the point of distribution, so my comments must be caveated in "generalities". Corn is renewable. Fossil fuels aren't. Growing corn employs farmlands laying fallow. Oil fields lie fallow after production ceases. The costs to ensure "access" to the places oil is located (foreign and domestic) bear a burden on many levels to many people. Many of these costs are not attributed to the "cost of oil", but should be considered nonetheless. Any soldier who gives his/her life to further a domestic policy on an international level is part of the cost. Don't know how you put a value on that life although our government does in paying benefits to survivors. Factor this cost in when considering the price of fossil fuels. Not too many soldiers have had to fight to ensure that farmers grow the crops they are paid to grow, so remove this cost from ethanol's consideration. Environmentally, in the emissions subcategory, ethanol is a cleaner fuel. Not sure from production to consumption how the 2 sources of fuel stack up, but my inclination is leaning in favor of ethanol from either corn or sugar cane (or potatoes even). Corrollary benefits to switching to renewable energy sources probably include less need to apply the military instrument of power around the world to ensure access to our fuel sources, increased goodwill with the international community as we don't have to "leverage" access in other ways, cleaner overall environment with the switch from fossil to renewable fuel, and increased emphasis on adequately employing farmers to do what they do instead of providing subsidies to ensure they don't grow crops on their farmable land. I don't live with some sort of utopian view of things that the ills that occur due to the exploitation and use of fossil fuels will disappear with a switch to ethanol. The excesses that exist in the fossil fuel industry (e.g. big oil) will also exist in an ethanol fuel industry (e.g. agribusiness). It seems from my distant view that we can reduce somewhat the vested interests in our national fuel supply by using a home-based brew to fuel our desire to travel. Some pedantic rambling for a Tuesday morning. Enjoy your day. NoSb SOV because you can, HOV because you care!

mroyal Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 01 Apr 2003 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote mroyal Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 Mar 2006 at 7:05pm
	It only took two years! But, truth be known I think it's the nomenclature that is wrong - not the incentive. As I have conceded though, I think the incentive has reached an impass and is no longer needed. Hybrids are now accepted as gas saving vehicles, have proven reliability and will continue to thrive without the HOV incentive. We should now shift the incentive to persuade public adoption of the next generation of fossil fuel independence (which could include flex fuel vehicles IMHO.) However, HOT throws a monkey wrench in the entire game, doesn't it... Kindest Regards, mroyal

MDC Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 04 Dec 2002 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote MDC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 Mar 2006 at 6:25pm
	Finally someone agrees that gasoline is not a "clean fuel"!

mroyal Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 01 Apr 2003 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote mroyal Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 Mar 2006 at 4:33pm
	quote: Originally posted by NoSUV [br]Seems like a solution is to NOT have flex fuel vehicles. Make them one or the other. Modify the gas tank hole as well as the fill up nozzle. Makes cheating harder, just like when we converted from regular to unleaded. Just like back then, the new stuff might well be more expensive. Can you remember the crying over conversion to unleaded? I disagree with your conclusion. I agree that a flex fuel vehicle should not be considered a clean fuel vehicle regardless of the fuel it is using. I've been just about convinced by wagonman's stats that all hybrids probably should not be CF (although I will not hesitate to drive SOV in HOV as long as the law allows it and I will not, for one secound feel guilty or selfish.) The problem solved by ethanol and flex fuel vehicles is our dependancy on fossil fuel and non-renewable resources (not to mention OPEC and other foreign influence.) Unfortunately, the cost of getting ethanol from corn is a tad too high and we (USA) are not a major grower of sugar cane. I still think it holds promise until we figure out an efficient way of producing hydrogen. Kindest Regards, mroyal

NoSUV Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote NoSUV Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 Mar 2006 at 8:53am
	Seems like a solution is to NOT have flex fuel vehicles. Make them one or the other. Modify the gas tank hole as well as the fill up nozzle. Makes cheating harder, just like when we converted from regular to unleaded. Just like back then, the new stuff might well be more expensive. Can you remember the crying over conversion to unleaded?

Wagonman Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 05 Aug 2003 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote Wagonman Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 Mar 2006 at 5:52pm
	quote: Originally posted by NoSUV [br] Why aren't people, like mdc and wagonman, working toward a similar modification with automakers and legislators - and telling us how we can help? Could be something as simple as square nozzles and tank holes. That would solve the possibility of people claiming CF while using gas - and allow CF plates to be issued to qualifying vehicles. Unless those people would rather just complain... I've written to our elected officials so many times it is kind of sad. They don't want to educate themselves. Status quo is easier. They are more interested in appearing to be doing something than to actually do something. Automakers only care about making money. The only consideration they give to the environment is meeting government regulations. Do you know why GM has so many E85 ready vehicles on the road already? Because the government gives them alternative fuel credits for those vehicles even though most of them will never see a drop of an alternative fuel. This credit lets them build less efficient and dirtier vehicles than if they didn't have the credit(saving dollars). I do have an easy solution to helping the environment. If you have a hybrid don't get clean fuel plates and then pick up passengers for HOV3. N_S_bound is correct about the oil companies buying up ethanol right now and driving up the cost of ethanol. This has something to do with MTBE, but the main reason is that starting in June a new set of requirements for gasoline goes into affect. Our gas will be getting closer to CARB gasoline. The refiners need ethanol to make the gas burn cleaner. At the same time diesel fuel will be getting much cleaner(the trucking lobby has finally lost, it shouldn't have taken 20 years). Fortunately, this rush on ethanol was predicted and there are something like 30 ethanol refineries being built. The real solution is setting high emissions standards and letting the market figure out the best way to meet them. Not politicians giving clean fuel plates to vehicles based on the powertrain type. NoSUV, flex fuel vehicles cannot receive CF plates. They shouldn't get CF plates. Really, the only vehicles that should be getting clean fuel plates are CNG vehicles. They are so much cleaner than anything else right now. But I know they are not the future. Hybrids have killed them off for all practical purposes.