Go Yellow

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Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]raymond, once again, let's try using facts. When you go to the websitses of auto manufacturers who have both hybrid and non-hybrid vehicles, you can see the independent agency's mpg rating, as well as the MSRP.

(you knew that the hybrid uses an electric motor as the prime mover, didn't you?)

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The electric motor is not the prime mover of a hybrid. You need to look up the definition. The EPA has admitted that its testing method for MPG is flawed so it isn't much help as an "independant agency".

So NoSUV, you would use the "even a broken watch is correct twice a day" theory in your reasoning? Not very compelling!

While I agree that hybrids use more of the potential stored energy in a gallon of gas by charging a battery with energy for later use, the increase in effeciency is negligable and cannot be accurately mesured by MPG alone. Hybrids are much more complex and expensive to build, and to buy (incentives and tax credits are bait). What we don't know is how long hybrids will last, how expensive the maintainence and repairs will be (to you pocketbook and to the environment), and what the long term effects will be of thousands of those huge batteries in our landfills. Of course you won't have to worry about that, but your grandchildren will!

At best, hybrids offer baby steps forward from the standard set by the most effecient internal combustion engines. And of course the ultimate goal should be to convert to renewable fuel, like ethanol or biodiesel. Focusing on increasing the fuel effeciency of gas burning engines distracts from the real issues; our insane dependency on foriegn produced, non-renewable, highly-polluting fossil fuels. And don't forget, your hybrid burns the same gas that my car does. Even if your car gets 30MPG to my 20, or 40, or even 50MPG for that matter, that is still very, very ineffecient! And despite your sense of superiority and nobility, it does nothing to solve our problems.

Hybrids are a distraction, a ruse, marketing hype, a boondoggle, just another product to sell, an attempt to perpetuate a fossil fuel culture that is profitable to marekters, a way to appeal to people who want to do the right thing, but don't know how. Hybrid buyers have been duped into thinking that they can buy something that will help the problem, when in fact they are perpetuating the problem.

Sorry, the watch is still broken. Let's keep our eyes on the ball. Alternative, renewable fuels are the answer.

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so raymond, if you have not been duped by the marekters, are you in the category of people who do not want to do the right thing, or that of those who know how? I say baby steps are better than no steps, and certainly better than steps backward.

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Twothreefour, I agree with you that current Hybrids are a definite step in the right direction. I believe that one of the key reasons the Electric cars failed was due to lack of low-cost, high-efficiency battery technology. EVs were definitely a step forward in concept but the technology wasn't mature enough given the target consumer price-point so they were dropped. The manufacturers said well...okay given today's battery technology, what can we do that is somewhat viable and won't leave motorists stranded in the middle of the road should their EV run out of juice? I understand how some people see the Hybrid as a step back from the EV, a signal of defeat but I see it as a big step forward proving that multiple drive systems can be fused into a single system. The complexities of a Hybrid are many more times sophisticated then the original EVs.

I think the Hybrid is about to evolve again as shown by a product this website is marketting called a Prius+: http://www.calcars.org/priusplus.html

The concept is awesome and thanks to improvements in Lithium Ion battery technology, we should see plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) becoming the norm very soon.

With this Prius+ modification you will spend approximately 9-hours charging the batteries at a cost of about $1.00 (based on todays electric prices) On that 9-hour charge you can drive over 50 miles at speeds up to 35mph without ever firing up your gasoline engine. If you decide to enter the HOV lanes and drive at 65+mph, the electrical system will provide assistance which will help you acheive over 100mpg if not 150-200mpg depending on your speeds, traffic, etc. The replacement Li-Ion batteries are approximately 10x more powerful then the stock Prius batteries.

Assuming best case, that your office was 50 miles from your home on 35mph roads the whole way, and on weekends you also did approximately 50 miles <=35mph of driving for Saturday and Sunday, and you spent $1.00/day to charge it, I come up with a yearly operating cost of $365/year. Compare that to the same scenario with a similar sized vehicle that gets 30mpg at a gas price of $3/gallon and we get $1825.00/year. A net savings of $1460. Now given the cost of the Prius+ of 12k, it would take approximately 8 years and 3 months to break even. However, if gasoline prices continue their current trend, you would probably break even in 4-6 years.

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Originally posted by raymond
[br] I don't care what your MPG is, it is not ok to continue to burn fossil fuel!

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Great stand, raymond! I would expect you to live by your words and NOT use fossil fuel - even to get to the slug line.

Oh - did I take what you wrote out of context? Try taking those baby steps. Don't be one of those people always waiting for the next best thing. I'm surprised you don't use 8-tracks waiting for the next generation Ipod.

NoSB: So, which is better - an 8-track or an Ipod? Let's face it - the FACT is that hybrids as SOV pollute less than conventional cars as SOV in the same class. The commuter lot SHOULD be full of hybrids, as well as the roads. Unless we sit on our...hands...and wait for the next best thing. How long do we wait? And how's that 8-track?