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NoSUV View Drop Down
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Joined: 14 Jan 2005
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Points: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoSUV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2006 at 11:26am
quote:
Originally posted by rodmunera
[br]I don't know whether to boo or clap... mixed feelings here... But hey, NoSUV won't be stopped by the admission of something that is painfully obvious to everyone else here. As long as in his mind he's the Eco-Man superhero, there's little that we puny mortals can do to sway him.

for over a year, now, pundits have claimed that the better solution to hybrids is just around the corner. And yet, we are no closer. And still we debate whether the hybrid is better than an non-hybrid in a similar car class.
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NoSUV View Drop Down
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Joined: 14 Jan 2005
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Points: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoSUV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2006 at 11:23am
quote:
Originally posted by raymond
[br]NoSUV, you mean the internal combustion engine in your hybrid?

What about all the lead and mercury in those hybrid batteries: coming soon to a landfill near you!

raymond - yep, you failed that quiz. Here's another:
What happens to the waste products from a battery?
a. Goes into our lungs
b. contributes to air pollution
c. major cause of global warming
d. all of the above
e. I'm raymond and have no clue

BTW - most components of a battery can be reclaimed; none of the waste products from your gas guzzler tailpipe is.
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SlugsB1tch2Much View Drop Down
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Joined: 18 Apr 2006
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Points: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SlugsB1tch2Much Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2006 at 8:48am
Hey no problem...Slugjo, I like the sound thermodynamic justification of hybrid energy usage. While it is simple and comprehensible, I think it is unfortunate that "green" people won't understand it (I mentioned entropic irreversibility at work and they asked me what transmission had to do with it). Hope you all had a great weekend.
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Joined: 17 Dec 2001
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Points: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n/a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2006 at 8:18am
Thanks for your input SB2M; its an open forum and your comments are welcome. I think everyone can appreciate the convenience factor afforded by the hybrid HOV exemptions; without a doubt. And many, like you, are willing to pay a premium for a car that is exempt for convenience sake. Hey, its a free country!

But as you accurately state, nobility is a thin veil for this purchase decision; "Let's not use the facade of being environmentally friendly..." as a justification for buying a hybrid when there are other reasons that while far less altruistic, but more realistic. NoSUV falls back on the ecology argument in a lame, ego-inflating attempt. But SB2M has offered a candid assesment; no arguments here.

And while at times you may B1tch2Much, your honesty is refreshing! And thanks for participating in slugging; I wish more hybrid drivers would pick up passengers. Hats off!
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slugjo View Drop Down
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Points: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slugjo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2006 at 6:16am
I haven't said anything about the energy used in manufacturing the hybrids or the fuel. I'm talking about the energy conversions taking place in the hybrid drive system. NoSUV thinks his battery is a magic endless source of energy, not knowing that automotive batteries do not produce energy, but only store it. That's why they are called storage batteries. The chemical potential energy of the gasoline is converted to heat energy, then to mechanical and electrical, then to kinetic (acceleration of the vehicle). Some of the electrical energy from the engine goes to charge the battery, and the battery also gains more charge from the recovery of kinetic energy in braking. A wonderful technology, I love hybrids, they are indeed more efficient and less polluting. But the battery is not an energy source. It serves to maximize the useful energy obtained from the gasoline. Every energy conversion is much less than 100% efficient, with losses as heat (increase in entropy)(second law of thermodynamics), and conventional vehicles waste a large amount in acceleration and braking. The hybrid system addresses these losses. But unless NoSUV gets a hybrid (not available yet) that he can plug in and recharge without burning gasoline, he is burning gasoline, and only gasoline (I know, it has ethanol in it). And if he someday gets one, then he will be increasing the load on mainly coal-fired and nuclear power plants.
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rodmunera View Drop Down
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Points: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rodmunera Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2006 at 10:21pm
I don't know whether to boo or clap... mixed feelings here... But hey, NoSUV won't be stopped by the admission of something that is painfully obvious to everyone else here. As long as in his mind he's the Eco-Man superhero, there's little that we puny mortals can do to sway him.
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SlugsB1tch2Much View Drop Down
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Points: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SlugsB1tch2Much Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2006 at 4:14pm
I hate to get in the middle of this but I think NoSUV shares these sentiments:
Let's not use the facade of being environmentally friendly, I will be amongst the first to say the only reason why I drive a hybrid is that I enjoy making use of the HOV-3 loophole that will be closed in less than a year. Although I do drive slugs to work on a regular basis, my initial intentions were to exploit the convenience and pay the price. I have nothing against you NoSUV, but as a fellow hybrid driver myself, I see almost no short-term environmental benefit of driving a hybrid nor do I see hybrid vehicles as a means of a sustainable energy source. Raymond said it, Slugjo has said it: it still takes fossil fuel to manufacture the vehicles, the net usage of fossil fuel is still negative. Let's just be forthcoming and admit that the convenience is the key selling point and that if you're willing to pay the price then do so. I'm pretty much over the idea of SOV in general because I enjoy picking up slugs--it's very different from my last job and it makes for very interesting days. Thanks and sorry if I ruined the continuity of this debate with my interjection.
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n/a View Drop Down
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Joined: 17 Dec 2001
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Points: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n/a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2006 at 3:55pm
NoSUV, you mean the internal combustion engine in your hybrid?

What about all the lead and mercury in those hybrid batteries: coming soon to a landfill near you!
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rodmunera View Drop Down
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Points: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rodmunera Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2006 at 11:39pm
There it is again! that argument!! haha!
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NoSUV View Drop Down
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Points: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoSUV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2006 at 9:49pm
quote:
Originally posted by raymond
[br]NoSUV said it, we all read it! "...energy recovered by the hybrid is a bi-product of gas...," and "...all energy sources have gas involved because the manufacture of engines requires energy which comes from fossil fuels." And while the terminology is at an elementary level, these are true statements.

Energy is a constant property that transfers its value into different states resulting from chemical and mechanical processes. Dinosaurs ate plants (mechanical). The energy that the plants harnessed from the sun, water, and soil for growth was transfered to the dinosaurs for their use as a food source (digestion = mechanical and chemical). The dinosaurs died and fossilized (mechanical and chemical). We drilled for oil, dug up coal, etc. (mechanical) and processed it into fuel (chemical). We then burn the fuel (chemical) to run our machinery (mechanical) to produce our products or transport us from place to place. A hybrid simply captures and stores some of the energy generated by the (gas burning) engine for later use. Even the inertia captured by the 'brake-generators' to recharge the batteries was forward motion created by a gas engine.

It is true that fossil fuel (probably coal) was used to run the factory that manufactured the engine in NoSUV's hybrid. And it is true that the energy recovered by the hybrid batteries is a bi-product of a gas burning engine.

Thanks NoSUV for helping to clear that up!

raymond - by your definitions, then, there is no such thing as a Clean fuel vehicle. Which means that you screwed up. Which surprises no one.

Hey, by the way, what happens to the waste products from an internal combustion engine?
a. Goes into our lungs
b. contributes to pollutions
c. major cause of global warming
d. all of the above
e. I'm raymond and have no clue
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