Hybrid Plates - Getting Around Intent of Law

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   NoSUV said it, we all read it! "...energy recovered by the hybrid is a bi-product of gas...," and "...all energy sources have gas involved because the manufacture of engines requires energy which comes from fossil fuels." And while the terminology is at an elementary level, these are true statements.

	Energy is a constant property that transfers its value into different states resulting from chemical and mechanical processes. Dinosaurs ate plants (mechanical). The energy that the plants harnessed from the sun, water, and soil for growth was transfered to the dinosaurs for their use as a food source (digestion = mechanical and chemical). The dinosaurs died and fossilized (mechanical and chemical). We drilled for oil, dug up coal, etc. (mechanical) and processed it into fuel (chemical). We then burn the fuel (chemical) to run our machinery (mechanical) to produce our products or transport us from place to place. A hybrid simply captures and stores some of the energy generated by the (gas burning) engine for later use. Even the inertia captured by the 'brake-generators' to recharge the batteries was forward motion created by a gas engine.

	It is true that fossil fuel (probably coal) was used to run the factory that manufactured the engine in NoSUV's hybrid. And it is true that the energy recovered by the hybrid batteries is a bi-product of a gas burning engine. 

	Thanks NoSUV for helping to clear that up!

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n/a Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 17 Dec 2001 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote n/a Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 Aug 2006 at 8:47am
	NoSUV said it, we all read it! "...energy recovered by the hybrid is a bi-product of gas...," and "...all energy sources have gas involved because the manufacture of engines requires energy which comes from fossil fuels." And while the terminology is at an elementary level, these are true statements. Energy is a constant property that transfers its value into different states resulting from chemical and mechanical processes. Dinosaurs ate plants (mechanical). The energy that the plants harnessed from the sun, water, and soil for growth was transfered to the dinosaurs for their use as a food source (digestion = mechanical and chemical). The dinosaurs died and fossilized (mechanical and chemical). We drilled for oil, dug up coal, etc. (mechanical) and processed it into fuel (chemical). We then burn the fuel (chemical) to run our machinery (mechanical) to produce our products or transport us from place to place. A hybrid simply captures and stores some of the energy generated by the (gas burning) engine for later use. Even the inertia captured by the 'brake-generators' to recharge the batteries was forward motion created by a gas engine. It is true that fossil fuel (probably coal) was used to run the factory that manufactured the engine in NoSUV's hybrid. And it is true that the energy recovered by the hybrid batteries is a bi-product of a gas burning engine. Thanks NoSUV for helping to clear that up!

slugjo Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Aug 2006 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote slugjo Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 Aug 2006 at 9:53am
	This is too funny! Raymond, you forgot to mention Intelligent Design. I wish my car were a perpetual motion machine! Just think, a battery that is a "source" of energy! Now, don't take my comments out of context. We don't do that here.

slugjo Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Aug 2006 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote slugjo Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 Aug 2006 at 12:15pm
	Raymond: you said you use these discussions to sharpen your debate skills (against NoSUV). A knife and a grindstone! One is sharp and agile, the other is dull with a lot of inertia. But the knife has very little effect on the grindstone. (Once I thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken.)

n/a Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 17 Dec 2001 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote n/a Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 Aug 2006 at 3:22pm
	I'm an equal opportunity debater, I'll argue with anyone with a poorly-developed point of view! The debate forces analysis and discovery, its a learning experience. But metaphors like that are too philosophical for me! We're just two sides of the same coin. (OMG, there's another one!) Did you hear the one about the three blind men who came upon an elephant...

slugjo Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Aug 2006 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote slugjo Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Aug 2006 at 7:14am
	Sorry about the metaphor, but I just thought that if NoSUV could call me a hypocritic (sic) and a liar, I could call him a grindstone, with a little bit of finesse and creativity, and win the vicious, offensive name-calling contest for the day without appearing as juvenile as he.

NoSUV Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote NoSUV Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Aug 2006 at 9:49pm
	quote: Originally posted by raymond [br]NoSUV said it, we all read it! "...energy recovered by the hybrid is a bi-product of gas...," and "...all energy sources have gas involved because the manufacture of engines requires energy which comes from fossil fuels." And while the terminology is at an elementary level, these are true statements. Energy is a constant property that transfers its value into different states resulting from chemical and mechanical processes. Dinosaurs ate plants (mechanical). The energy that the plants harnessed from the sun, water, and soil for growth was transfered to the dinosaurs for their use as a food source (digestion = mechanical and chemical). The dinosaurs died and fossilized (mechanical and chemical). We drilled for oil, dug up coal, etc. (mechanical) and processed it into fuel (chemical). We then burn the fuel (chemical) to run our machinery (mechanical) to produce our products or transport us from place to place. A hybrid simply captures and stores some of the energy generated by the (gas burning) engine for later use. Even the inertia captured by the 'brake-generators' to recharge the batteries was forward motion created by a gas engine. It is true that fossil fuel (probably coal) was used to run the factory that manufactured the engine in NoSUV's hybrid. And it is true that the energy recovered by the hybrid batteries is a bi-product of a gas burning engine. Thanks NoSUV for helping to clear that up! raymond - by your definitions, then, there is no such thing as a Clean fuel vehicle. Which means that you screwed up. Which surprises no one. Hey, by the way, what happens to the waste products from an internal combustion engine? a. Goes into our lungs b. contributes to pollutions c. major cause of global warming d. all of the above e. I'm raymond and have no clue

rodmunera Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote rodmunera Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Aug 2006 at 11:39pm
	There it is again! that argument!! haha!

n/a Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 17 Dec 2001 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote n/a Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Aug 2006 at 3:55pm
	NoSUV, you mean the internal combustion engine in your hybrid? What about all the lead and mercury in those hybrid batteries: coming soon to a landfill near you!

SlugsB1tch2Much Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 18 Apr 2006 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote SlugsB1tch2Much Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Aug 2006 at 4:14pm
	I hate to get in the middle of this but I think NoSUV shares these sentiments: Let's not use the facade of being environmentally friendly, I will be amongst the first to say the only reason why I drive a hybrid is that I enjoy making use of the HOV-3 loophole that will be closed in less than a year. Although I do drive slugs to work on a regular basis, my initial intentions were to exploit the convenience and pay the price. I have nothing against you NoSUV, but as a fellow hybrid driver myself, I see almost no short-term environmental benefit of driving a hybrid nor do I see hybrid vehicles as a means of a sustainable energy source. Raymond said it, Slugjo has said it: it still takes fossil fuel to manufacture the vehicles, the net usage of fossil fuel is still negative. Let's just be forthcoming and admit that the convenience is the key selling point and that if you're willing to pay the price then do so. I'm pretty much over the idea of SOV in general because I enjoy picking up slugs--it's very different from my last job and it makes for very interesting days. Thanks and sorry if I ruined the continuity of this debate with my interjection.

rodmunera Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote rodmunera Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Aug 2006 at 10:21pm
	I don't know whether to boo or clap... mixed feelings here... But hey, NoSUV won't be stopped by the admission of something that is painfully obvious to everyone else here. As long as in his mind he's the Eco-Man superhero, there's little that we puny mortals can do to sway him.