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   It looks to me like I got your points pretty well covered.

	1. SULEV or hybrid, no real big difference.  So my synopsis was essentially correct.

	2. You said the same thing I did with different words, again.  So my synopsis was essentially correct, again.

	3. You did not disagree with my synopsis, though you added that, in general, the express lanes have excess capacity.

	OK.  Just checking.

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SpongeBob Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote SpongeBob Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 13 Dec 2006 at 2:32pm
	It looks to me like I got your points pretty well covered. 1. SULEV or hybrid, no real big difference. So my synopsis was essentially correct. 2. You said the same thing I did with different words, again. So my synopsis was essentially correct, again. 3. You did not disagree with my synopsis, though you added that, in general, the express lanes have excess capacity. OK. Just checking.

NoSUV Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote NoSUV Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 13 Dec 2006 at 7:52pm
	quote: Originally posted by darkprime [br]NoSUV, according to 2005 census figures, Washington DC is the #1 most dense city population wise in the United States. dark - I'd be interested in looking at the link where you got your data. Feel free to check out the official data in the link I previously provided on this thread from the US Census folks.

NoSUV Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote NoSUV Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 13 Dec 2006 at 7:53pm
	quote: Originally posted by SpongeBob [br]It looks to me like I got your points pretty well covered. 1. SULEV or hybrid, no real big difference. So my synopsis was essentially correct. 2. You said the same thing I did with different words, again. So my synopsis was essentially correct, again. 3. You did not disagree with my synopsis, though you added that, in general, the express lanes have excess capacity. OK. Just checking. Sponge, as I said, your words were not quite right - and they do NOT say the same things.

darkprime Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote darkprime Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 Dec 2006 at 8:02am
	Yes, I looked at your data from what was it, 2000 or 1998. Either way it was grossly out of date. When I come up with the link on 2005 figures again I'll post that.

darkprime Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote darkprime Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 Dec 2006 at 8:22am
	I hate to admit it, but some extra searching reveals whatever source I found was not entirely correct. Strictly speaking population density wise, DC isn't the most dense in the nation. It may be within it's size class though. DC has a population density of 9540 people per square mile (which is greater than Los Angelos's 7800+ people per square mile. DC's population can be found here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/21/AR2006072101621.html, and the density is figured by 61 square miles. Regardless, the density issue doesn't address the number of poeple who travel into the city each day. I haven't come across those numbers yet and I know those are going to be a much fairer judgement from a population perspective.

n/a Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 17 Dec 2001 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote n/a Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 Dec 2006 at 8:22am
	dark, thanks for taking the time to research this, very interesting. I'm sure a major contributing factor is the traffic choke points at each bridge. While in the other major cities mentioned here people are commuting via many major arteries into their respective metro areas, in DC we have a large number of commuters who must cross the Potomac via one of only a few bridges.

NoSUV Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote NoSUV Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 Dec 2006 at 8:39am
	rain man - take a look, as I recommended, at Chicago. Notice that they have a worse "choke point" problem in that there's a big lake on one side -- yet not the DC metro level of congestion. And, I think the world would be surprised if data shows DC to have a higher population level than Chicago.

darkprime Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote darkprime Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 Dec 2006 at 10:25am
	I still do not believe you can accurately compare DC with Chicago. Both have far too many differences from sizes, bottlenecks, politics, road designs, etc. Even studies, such as the one here (a very good read might I add) http://keepchicagolandmoving.com/mobility_report_2005.pdf shows various congestion metrics which show DC and Chicago trading spots from metric to metric. If you look here: http://keepchicagolandmoving.com/affectsyou.html, Chicago's CTA would make you beleive their traffic is worse than DCs. The only thing I think you can accurately say is that both regions have a congestion problem. Even the report I linked to says that there's no one solution for any region, nor are all solutions good for all areas. They even mention in the report that HOV is a GOOD THING. Lastly, the report is from 2003 observations. Next year we should see more from 2004. It's a shame there's such a long lag between these reports and the current time. Perhaps those who are doing the studies are caught up in traffic.

bnvus Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote bnvus Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 Dec 2006 at 11:32am
	Here we go again. Since the traffic in in the HOV lane travels at speed, don't you think it would be better for the environment for these hybrids to commute in the slower lanes? I mean it has been proven that they are no more efficient/polution friendly at highway speeds than a lot of other 4 cyl. autos? Certainly they would benefit the environment by switching to their electric motor and recharging the system utilizing their brakes. Irreguardless, having a car with 4 doors and one passenger in the HOV just makes no sense. People who drive/ride in the HOV make a sacrifice every day to ride in the lanes to DC. Why can't these Hybrid owners do the same? What do they sacrifice? Nothing Nada Zilch Zip. They get tax breaks, fuel economy, and privacy. Where is the payback NoSUV? You Hybrid owners are taking advantage of the system and it needs to end. Lobby as much as you want. Just remember, it is a two way street. We can (and will) lobby just as much.

NoSUV Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote NoSUV Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 Dec 2006 at 4:49pm
	quote: Originally posted by bnvus [br]Here we go again. Since the traffic in in the HOV lane travels at speed, don't you think it would be better for the environment for these hybrids to commute in the slower lanes? I mean it has been proven that they are no more efficient/polution friendly at highway speeds than a lot of other 4 cyl. autos? Certainly they would benefit the environment by switching to their electric motor and recharging the system utilizing their brakes. Irreguardless, having a car with 4 doors and one passenger in the HOV just makes no sense. People who drive/ride in the HOV make a sacrifice every day to ride in the lanes to DC. Why can't these Hybrid owners do the same? What do they sacrifice? Nothing Nada Zilch Zip. They get tax breaks, fuel economy, and privacy. Where is the payback NoSUV? You Hybrid owners are taking advantage of the system and it needs to end. Lobby as much as you want. Just remember, it is a two way street. We can (and will) lobby just as much. bnvirus - actually, the items you claim are proven are not. Try to remember that constant speed = zero acceleration. Now, pop quiz: which is better for the environment, a conventional pick up truck with 3 persons traveling at a constant speed of 65 mph for 10K miles and another 5K miles traveling stop and go and occasional interstate, or a SULEV compact with one person traveling at that same constant speed for 10K miles and another 5K miles same as the pick up? What you really want is to commute for free, and it really upsets you to see that your freeloading way of life is coming to an end. What will happen to you when your "entitlement" ends? How about "sacrificing" some money for your driver? Where's the payback, virus?