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Forum LockedWashington Post reporter seeks help on hybrids

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JustWannaGetHome View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JustWannaGetHome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2004 at 4:56pm
Glacier,

I get your point...and I agree 100%. Yes, Motown, we may have extra congestion due to the boom in growth down in Stafford and Fredericksburg, but how does eliminating the Hybrid excemption not help the congestion. This should be the first item on the agenda for declogging the HOV (High Occupancy Vehicles = more than 1) lanes.

I personally think Hybrids are the #1 reason congestion has increased in the HOV lanes (I will always believe that, so Hybrid owners, please don't try to convince me otherwise). There is no reason why CF cars should not have three people in their car. It's such a no brainer I don't understand why it's even an issue.
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tlschau View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tlschau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2004 at 9:21am
HOV-4!
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vabigblue View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vabigblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2004 at 8:07am
quote:
Originally posted by JustWannaGetHome
[br]Glacier,

I get your point...and I agree 100%. Yes, Motown, we may have extra congestion due to the boom in growth down in Stafford and Fredericksburg, but how does eliminating the Hybrid excemption not help the congestion. This should be the first item on the agenda for declogging the HOV (High Occupancy Vehicles = more than 1) lanes.

I personally think Hybrids are the #1 reason congestion has increased in the HOV lanes (I will always believe that, so Hybrid owners, please don't try to convince me otherwise). There is no reason why CF cars should not have three people in their car. It's such a no brainer I don't understand why it's even an issue.


I am definitely with that. I don't see why there should be an exception. I think the state has opened a bucket of worms by allowing Hybrids to be exempt from carry passengers. Just think what the debate is going to be when they are asked to join regular lanes or carry at least three people. I won't be convinced either. GO SLUGS - HOV-3. [;)]

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Max_28756 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2004 at 9:22am
The arguement that Hybrid drivers who do not have 3 passengers in their car use that they are not clogging up the HOV lanes but saving the environment is of course a poor one. Here's the "what if" that they have yet to answer. "What if" all cars on the road were Hybrids, would they all be justified in driving on the HOV? I'm sure those current owners of Hybrids would ask for some type of law preventing anyone who purchased their vehicle after a certain date from driving on the HOV. The bottom line is that Hybrids do NOT contribute to the reduction of vehicle volume on the highways unless they carry 3 or more passengers. To those of you Hybrid owners who are also driving with 3 or more passengers, bravo!
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tlschau View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tlschau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2004 at 10:39am
quote:
Originally posted by RoadRunner
[br]I have to disagree with HOV-4. There are days there are not enough slugs, and drivers have to wait even longer at the lines for people.
There are also some people who prefer not to have a passenger behind the driver seat due to legroom or those who feel it is an inconvenience to have to move a carseat. See the thread about if a driver will take 3 slugs instead of 2. With HOV-3, one still has the option of taking either 2 or 3, depending on a lot of factors.



I agree, but I think these are things that would be worked out over time, after everyone got used to the new rules.

I just think that HOV-4 is inevitable, unless the HOT lanes idea takes off and then all bets are off. But assuming that the HOT lanes idea dies, then it's just a matter of time before the increased traffic on the HOV lanes forces us to go to HOV-4.

Again, I know that at first there would be issues (like the ones you mentioned) but I think that over time people would just get used to it once they realized how much improved traffic would be. Besides, isn't that part of the reason why HOV exists anyway?

As a side note, in the beginning of HOV it began as HOV-4, but was changed to HOV-3 in an attempt to attract more activity in the HOV lanes. I think it worked.
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emancilla View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote emancilla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2004 at 11:03am
Nowadays, most of the drivers are kind enough to take 3 people that I don't think HOV-4 will affect them in any way.
Although, I have heard the more the weight, the more you burn gas. Since gas prices are very high, is this going to represent a problem?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FromWoodbridge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2004 at 11:19am
My problem with the hybrids in the HOV lanes is a lot of people that drive them DON'T drive! If you are going to be in the express lanes, you are going to have to GO. That means AT LEAST 65 in the right lane and 70 in hte left lane if there's no traffic. Of course, this is true of any car, but these cars are the "exception" in the HOV lanes, so they get singled out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vabigblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2004 at 3:44pm
I don't know if HOV-4 would work as effectively nowadays. Like someone mentioned, baby seats, clothing, purses and whatever else is kept in a lot of backseats. Besides, it would make pickup (vehicle)lines longer. If I had a choice, I would definitely keep HOV-3 for vehicles, including Hybrids.
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emancilla View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote emancilla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2004 at 4:52pm
True, vabigblue. However, I've seen a lot of people putting all of this, like clothing, gym bags and purses in the trunk to make space for a third slug. I even saw a guy taking the babyseat out of the car and put it in the trunk.
That's going the extra mile for some and pushing the envelop for others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wagonman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2004 at 7:08pm
Some more fuel for the fire.

Story location: http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,63413,00.html


02:00 AM May. 11, 2004 PT


Hybrid cars are hot, but not as hot as their owners, who complain that their gas mileage hasn't come close to well-advertised estimates.


Don't knock the car companies for inflated claims: Experts say the blame lies with the 19-year-old EPA fuel-efficiency test that overstates hybrid performance.




Pete Blackshaw was so excited about getting a hybrid gasoline-electric car that he had his wife videotape the trip to the Honda dealership to pick up his Civic Hybrid. The enthusiastic owner ordered a customized license plate with "MO MILES" on it, and started a blog about his new hybrid lifestyle.


But after a few months of commuting to his job in Cincinnati, Blackshaw's hybrid euphoria vanished as his car's odometer revealed that the gas mileage he was hoping for was only a pipe dream. Honda's Civic Hybrid is rated by the EPA to get 47 miles per gallon in the city, and 48 mpg on the highway. After nearly 1,000 miles of mostly city driving, Blackshaw was getting 31.4 mpg.


"I feel like a complete fraud driving around Cincinnati with a license plate that says MO MILES," says Blackshaw, who claims that after 4,000 miles his car has never gotten more than 33 mpg on any trip. The tenor of Blackshaw's blog shifted from adulation to frustration after his Honda dealer confirmed that his car was functioning properly, and that there was nothing he could do.


Blackshaw, who is chief customer satisfaction officer at Intelliseek.com, spoke to a Honda regional manager about his concerns, and wrote a letter to a Honda vice president on April 15 that was not answered. His story has been echoed dozens of times online by owners of the Honda Civic Hybrid and Toyota Prius.


Drivers rarely see the actual EPA-rated mileage in the real world, according to John DiPietro, road-test editor of automotive website Edmunds.com. DiPietro says most drivers will get between 75 to 87 percent of the rated mileage, with individual variations based on driving habits and traffic route. "If a new car gets less than 75 percent of its EPA rating, then it should be retested."


Data from independent product-testing organization Consumer Reports indicates that hybrid cars get less than 60 percent of EPA estimates while navigating city streets. In Consumer Reports' real-world driving test, the Civic Hybrid averaged 26 mpg in the city, while the Toyota Prius averaged 35 mpg, much less than their respective EPA estimates of 47 and 60 mpg. Hybrid cars performed much closer to EPA estimates in Consumer Reports' highway tests.


Consumer Reports' senior auto test engineer Gabriel Shenhar says that while the EPA test is a lab simulation, Consumer Reports puts the cars on the streets and measures the fuel consumed to more accurately reflect gas mileage.


The 19-year-old EPA tests for city and highway mileage actually gauge vehicle emissions and use that data to derive an estimated fuel-efficiency rating. The EPA tests pre-production vehicles in a lab to simulate vehicle starts and stops on crowded city streets and open road conditions. According to the EPA website, "The tests measure the waste substances emitted from consuming the fuel, not the actual fuel consumed. From the measurement of emissions, EPA can estimate the miles per gallon achieved by the vehicle on average."


"The (EPA) test needs to include more fundamental engineering," says John H. Johnson, an automotive expert who co-authored a 2002 National Academy of Sciences report on fuel-efficiency standards. "They haven't been updated to encompass hybrids."


Johnson says the test was created so that it could be affordably reproduced, not to be as accurate as possible. "It's complicated to simulate all of the engineering factors in a moving vehicle," says Johnson, and hybrid cars, which use batteries to assist the gasoline engine, make the task all the more daunting.


The EPA did not respond to questions about its testing procedures in time to appear in this article.


Toyota environmental engineer Dave Hermance says the EPA city test includes 19 stops of at least a few seconds, which take up a "non-trivial" amount of the test and could cause hybrid cars to rate even higher than conventional cars because of their reliance on electric motors. "But I could also make arguments about aspects of the test going the other way, too." Hermance says that because the EPA uses historical data from 1972, it's virtually impossible to change the test.


Hermance says customers who drive less than seven miles per trip will get fewer miles per gallon, as will drivers who speed. "There's a huge range of customer behavior and limited resources to collect data, so there's no perfect test."


The EPA test "has inherent shortcomings, irrespective of what kind of car is being driven," says Philip Schmidt, professor of engineering at the University of Texas at Austin. Schmidt says hybrid cars use computers to more precisely control the flow of gasoline and have more efficient catalytic converters, which reduce the amount of emissions. Schmidt "wouldn't rule out" that hybrid cars' ability to limit emissions contributes to the disparity in EPA versus real-world numbers.


But the inflated EPA numbers have been a public relations conundrum for Honda and Toyota, which are caught between hyped expectations and detracting from one of the cars' main selling points -- better mileage.


Federal law requires that auto manufacturers use only EPA estimates when promoting their vehicles' fuel economy, according to Toyota spokeswoman Nancy Hubbell. While the company received some complaints about gas mileage, Hubbell says many Prius owners get close to their EPA-rated mileage. Toyota Prius sales increased 152 percent this April over last year, and many consumers are on a three- to six-month waiting list, Hubbell says.


Placing a gas mileage gauge on the dashboard has made more drivers aware of their fuel efficiency, says Honda spokesman Andy Boyd, which cuts both ways. "If every car were like that, more people would be complaining (about their conventional cars)," Boyd says. He says the company is dealing with dissatisfied users on an individual basis, and the company is reviewing how to respond to questions about mileage.


Civic Hybrid owner Blackshaw says the EPA ratings created a perception problem that discourages some of the technology's most ardent supporters. "Nothing is more viral than a false advertising claim," Blackshaw says. "That's why it is so important that manufacturers set clear expectations."
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