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MDC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MDC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2006 at 8:55am
Only special cars get CF plates. It has nothing to do with emissions, or even mileage.

I take back what I said on Friday. I was clearly wrong.
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NoSUV View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoSUV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2006 at 9:16am
Seems as though the process needs to change. Once upon a time, cars ran on regular gas. Then unleaded came along. It was more expensive, so many used regular instead of unleaded. In response, both the gas tanks and the fuel nozzles were modified to be a different and smaller size.

Why aren't people, like mdc and wagonman, working toward a similar modification with automakers and legislators - and telling us how we can help? Could be something as simple as square nozzles and tank holes. That would solve the possibility of people claiming CF while using gas - and allow CF plates to be issued to qualifying vehicles.

Unless those people would rather just complain...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2006 at 9:42am
This is the right place for complaining, bitching, whining...and every once and a while having an intelligent debate about issues
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote N_or_S_bound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2006 at 10:25am
Many cities in America us ethanol to reduce emissions already. That is mandated at the city govt level to reduce the pollution/smog. Get informed here.

Now, this next part is the challenging one to read (I don't know where to come down on it yet either). Oil companies are buying up ethanol and driving up prices. The public claim in the media is that they are using it to replace a potentially carcinogenic additive currently in oil-based gasoline (MTBH?).

Ethanol in the midwest recently was priced higher than gasoline. They do have the greatest concentration of E85 vehicles in the midwest than any other location in America. It's a distribution challenge. Who owns the distribution channels? E85 vehicles can burn gasoline as easily as 85% ethanol-based fuel.

Brazil has the eighth largest economy of the world. Like any semi-industrialized nation,
there are great differences in income between the rich and poor social classes and different
states/provinces.

Brazil has by far the largest area, population, and economy of South America. It is larger
than the Lower 48 States of the U.S.; its population (160 Million) is approximately 40 percent of
South America’s, and it uses 36 percent of the continent’s oil consumption.

Brazil makes their ethanol from sugar cane.

Ok, you could buy Beta or you could buy VHS years ago. Which endured? Early adopters are often left hanging with an inferior product which is more successfully marketed. For those who don't know, Beta was better quality than VHS. VHS was marketed better...or Beta wasn't as effectively marketed. Either way, for the time period when they were both avail (prior to DVDs...another discussion altogether), Beta was superior, but couldn't market.

Toyota, Ford and Honda are marketing companies. Hybrids will last although their effective contribution to all forms of environmental conscientiousness is a whole lot less than some will allow themselves to believe---even when faced with the truth.

Hybrids will endure. The marketing and PAC funds are flowing freely. One can assimilate and go "lemming-like" off the cliff. Or take an active stance and proactive action towards adopting more lasting EF technologies like ethanol on the way to hydrogen.

Oh, E85 is also available at Quantico and yes, you need a mil id card to buy it there too. Remember the question: who owns the distribution system?

NoSb

SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wagonman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2006 at 5:52pm
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]
Why aren't people, like mdc and wagonman, working toward a similar modification with automakers and legislators - and telling us how we can help? Could be something as simple as square nozzles and tank holes. That would solve the possibility of people claiming CF while using gas - and allow CF plates to be issued to qualifying vehicles.

Unless those people would rather just complain...



I've written to our elected officials so many times it is kind of sad. They don't want to educate themselves. Status quo is easier. They are more interested in appearing to be doing something than to actually do something.
Automakers only care about making money. The only consideration they give to the environment is meeting government regulations. Do you know why GM has so many E85 ready vehicles on the road already? Because the government gives them alternative fuel credits for those vehicles even though most of them will never see a drop of an alternative fuel. This credit lets them build less efficient and dirtier vehicles than if they didn't have the credit(saving dollars).
I do have an easy solution to helping the environment. If you have a hybrid don't get clean fuel plates and then pick up passengers for HOV3.
N_S_bound is correct about the oil companies buying up ethanol right now and driving up the cost of ethanol. This has something to do with MTBE, but the main reason is that starting in June a new set of requirements for gasoline goes into affect. Our gas will be getting closer to CARB gasoline. The refiners need ethanol to make the gas burn cleaner. At the same time diesel fuel will be getting much cleaner(the trucking lobby has finally lost, it shouldn't have taken 20 years). Fortunately, this rush on ethanol was predicted and there are something like 30 ethanol refineries being built. The real solution is setting high emissions standards and letting the market figure out the best way to meet them. Not politicians giving clean fuel plates to vehicles based on the powertrain type.

NoSUV, flex fuel vehicles cannot receive CF plates. They shouldn't get CF plates. Really, the only vehicles that should be getting clean fuel plates are CNG vehicles. They are so much cleaner than anything else right now. But I know they are not the future. Hybrids have killed them off for all practical purposes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoSUV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2006 at 8:53am
Seems like a solution is to NOT have flex fuel vehicles. Make them one or the other. Modify the gas tank hole as well as the fill up nozzle. Makes cheating harder, just like when we converted from regular to unleaded.

Just like back then, the new stuff might well be more expensive. Can you remember the crying over conversion to unleaded?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mroyal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2006 at 4:33pm
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]Seems like a solution is to NOT have flex fuel vehicles. Make them one or the other. Modify the gas tank hole as well as the fill up nozzle. Makes cheating harder, just like when we converted from regular to unleaded.

Just like back then, the new stuff might well be more expensive. Can you remember the crying over conversion to unleaded?



I disagree with your conclusion. I agree that a flex fuel vehicle should not be considered a clean fuel vehicle regardless of the fuel it is using. I've been just about convinced by wagonman's stats that all hybrids probably should not be CF (although I will not hesitate to drive SOV in HOV as long as the law allows it and I will not, for one secound feel guilty or selfish.)

The problem solved by ethanol and flex fuel vehicles is our dependancy on fossil fuel and non-renewable resources (not to mention OPEC and other foreign influence.) Unfortunately, the cost of getting ethanol from corn is a tad too high and we (USA) are not a major grower of sugar cane. I still think it holds promise until we figure out an efficient way of producing hydrogen.


Kindest Regards,

mroyal
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MDC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2006 at 6:25pm
Finally someone agrees that gasoline is not a "clean fuel"!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mroyal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2006 at 7:05pm
It only took two years!
But, truth be known I think it's the nomenclature that is wrong - not the incentive. As I have conceded though, I think the incentive has reached an impass and is no longer needed. Hybrids are now accepted as gas saving vehicles, have proven reliability and will continue to thrive without the HOV incentive. We should now shift the incentive to persuade public adoption of the next generation of fossil fuel independence (which could include flex fuel vehicles IMHO.)
However, HOT throws a monkey wrench in the entire game, doesn't it...


Kindest Regards,

mroyal
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote N_or_S_bound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2006 at 6:40am
I don't think I agree with the comment: "the cost of getting ethanol from corn is a tad too high".

I don't have access to the numbers in order to run a cost analysis on the entire chain of events it takes to get a barrel of oil or ethanol to market at the point of distribution, so my comments must be caveated in "generalities".

Corn is renewable. Fossil fuels aren't. Growing corn employs farmlands laying fallow. Oil fields lie fallow after production ceases. The costs to ensure "access" to the places oil is located (foreign and domestic) bear a burden on many levels to many people. Many of these costs are not attributed to the "cost of oil", but should be considered nonetheless.

Any soldier who gives his/her life to further a domestic policy on an international level is part of the cost. Don't know how you put a value on that life although our government does in paying benefits to survivors. Factor this cost in when considering the price of fossil fuels.

Not too many soldiers have had to fight to ensure that farmers grow the crops they are paid to grow, so remove this cost from ethanol's consideration.

Environmentally, in the emissions subcategory, ethanol is a cleaner fuel. Not sure from production to consumption how the 2 sources of fuel stack up, but my inclination is leaning in favor of ethanol from either corn or sugar cane (or potatoes even).

Corrollary benefits to switching to renewable energy sources probably include less need to apply the military instrument of power around the world to ensure access to our fuel sources, increased goodwill with the international community as we don't have to "leverage" access in other ways, cleaner overall environment with the switch from fossil to renewable fuel, and increased emphasis on adequately employing farmers to do what they do instead of providing subsidies to ensure they don't grow crops on their farmable land.

I don't live with some sort of utopian view of things that the ills that occur due to the exploitation and use of fossil fuels will disappear with a switch to ethanol. The excesses that exist in the fossil fuel industry (e.g. big oil) will also exist in an ethanol fuel industry (e.g. agribusiness). It seems from my distant view that we can reduce somewhat the vested interests in our national fuel supply by using a home-based brew to fuel our desire to travel.

Some pedantic rambling for a Tuesday morning. Enjoy your day.

NoSb

SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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