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slugjo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slugjo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2006 at 6:16am
I haven't said anything about the energy used in manufacturing the hybrids or the fuel. I'm talking about the energy conversions taking place in the hybrid drive system. NoSUV thinks his battery is a magic endless source of energy, not knowing that automotive batteries do not produce energy, but only store it. That's why they are called storage batteries. The chemical potential energy of the gasoline is converted to heat energy, then to mechanical and electrical, then to kinetic (acceleration of the vehicle). Some of the electrical energy from the engine goes to charge the battery, and the battery also gains more charge from the recovery of kinetic energy in braking. A wonderful technology, I love hybrids, they are indeed more efficient and less polluting. But the battery is not an energy source. It serves to maximize the useful energy obtained from the gasoline. Every energy conversion is much less than 100% efficient, with losses as heat (increase in entropy)(second law of thermodynamics), and conventional vehicles waste a large amount in acceleration and braking. The hybrid system addresses these losses. But unless NoSUV gets a hybrid (not available yet) that he can plug in and recharge without burning gasoline, he is burning gasoline, and only gasoline (I know, it has ethanol in it). And if he someday gets one, then he will be increasing the load on mainly coal-fired and nuclear power plants.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n/a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2006 at 8:18am
Thanks for your input SB2M; its an open forum and your comments are welcome. I think everyone can appreciate the convenience factor afforded by the hybrid HOV exemptions; without a doubt. And many, like you, are willing to pay a premium for a car that is exempt for convenience sake. Hey, its a free country!

But as you accurately state, nobility is a thin veil for this purchase decision; "Let's not use the facade of being environmentally friendly..." as a justification for buying a hybrid when there are other reasons that while far less altruistic, but more realistic. NoSUV falls back on the ecology argument in a lame, ego-inflating attempt. But SB2M has offered a candid assesment; no arguments here.

And while at times you may B1tch2Much, your honesty is refreshing! And thanks for participating in slugging; I wish more hybrid drivers would pick up passengers. Hats off!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SlugsB1tch2Much Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2006 at 8:48am
Hey no problem...Slugjo, I like the sound thermodynamic justification of hybrid energy usage. While it is simple and comprehensible, I think it is unfortunate that "green" people won't understand it (I mentioned entropic irreversibility at work and they asked me what transmission had to do with it). Hope you all had a great weekend.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoSUV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2006 at 11:23am
quote:
Originally posted by raymond
[br]NoSUV, you mean the internal combustion engine in your hybrid?

What about all the lead and mercury in those hybrid batteries: coming soon to a landfill near you!


raymond - yep, you failed that quiz. Here's another:
What happens to the waste products from a battery?
a. Goes into our lungs
b. contributes to air pollution
c. major cause of global warming
d. all of the above
e. I'm raymond and have no clue

BTW - most components of a battery can be reclaimed; none of the waste products from your gas guzzler tailpipe is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoSUV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2006 at 11:26am
quote:
Originally posted by rodmunera
[br]I don't know whether to boo or clap... mixed feelings here... But hey, NoSUV won't be stopped by the admission of something that is painfully obvious to everyone else here. As long as in his mind he's the Eco-Man superhero, there's little that we puny mortals can do to sway him.


for over a year, now, pundits have claimed that the better solution to hybrids is just around the corner. And yet, we are no closer. And still we debate whether the hybrid is better than an non-hybrid in a similar car class.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoSUV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2006 at 11:32am
quote:
Originally posted by raymond
[br]But as you accurately state, nobility is a thin veil for this purchase decision; "Let's not use the facade of being environmentally friendly..." as a justification for buying a hybrid when there are other reasons that while far less altruistic, but more realistic. NoSUV falls back on the ecology argument in a lame, ego-inflating attempt. But SB2M has offered a candid assesment; no arguments here.


raymond - if you check my earlier posts, my hybrid purchase was based on environmental reasons. My Prius was purchased in '02; I moved to the region with 300,000 of my closest friends in '03. And not for the hybrid exemption, but for the employment opportunity.

Get your facts straight, raymond. Whoops - forgot who I was writing to - the person who needs no facts and just makes them up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n/a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2006 at 3:41pm
Soooooooo, you don't put gas in your gas tank?! Of course you do, we all do! Look, I don't dispute that gas engines pollute, they do. The gas engine in your prius pollutes just the same as the engine in my car. So don't get all high-and-mighty with me, fellow polluter. As I said before, nobility is a thin veil, and you don't wear it well!

But you can't really be so naive as to think that your several hundred pound battery pack is 100% recyclable. I would like to see one reputable source that proves that. Disposed batteries have been leaching lead and mercury and dozens of other chemicals into our environment for decades. What makes you think the batteries in your hybrid are any different?

I would like to hear about your plan for recycling the battery in your hybrid. Where will you take it? What is the name of the company that will reclaim it? Are you willing to pay a disposal fee? You talk of facts, let's hear some from you... Now is your chance, shut me up with your ecological battery recovery plan. If you have actually thought any of this out, I'll concede.

I didn't think so!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slugjo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2006 at 4:23pm
Raymond, the Priapus batteries are Nickel Metal Hydride, not lead-acid, and are more environmentally friendly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoSUV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2006 at 8:58am
quote:
Originally posted by raymond
[br]The gas engine in your prius pollutes just the same as the engine in my car.

raymond - and yet, you are WRONG again. wagonman will be happy to provide you the statistics, as will any reputable trade journal.

Yes, when my battery has reached end of life, I'm planning on taking it to the Toyota dealer for them to recycle. Feel free to call them about how they perform the reclaiming process. I don't know when I'll need to take it to them since I'm already at 4 years and 76K miles. I can guarantee you that the battery isn't contributing NEARLY as much to global warming as your engine - which is exactly why more incentives, such as exemptions from tolls, are needed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n/a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2006 at 9:47am
You want facts? OK, her are some:

As you state, as part of its marketing scheme, Toyota has a program outlined in the Toyota website (at http://www.toyota.com/about/environment/technology/2004/hybrid.html0 ) which states, “Toyota has a comprehensive battery recycling program in place,” And offers customers “…a $200 "bounty" for each battery,” a fraction of the value of the components that could be recovered from the batteries. And while the website states that “Every part of the battery, from the precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, is recycled,” it falls short of saying that none of these components end up in landfills.

MSNBC reporter Herb Weisbaum offers a more objective opinion in his March 14, 2006 article (at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11812910/), about hybrid batteries. In response to the question, “And will there be a pollution problem when the batteries come to the end of their useful life?” He answers, “Sooner or later — because they are defective, worn out, or the vehicle is in an accident — the battery pack in a hybrid vehicle will need to be removed or replaced.” “…the batteries will be treated as hazardous waste, similar to any other car battery. That means they will be sent to a recycling plant for proper disposal. The chemicals in the cells will be neutralized and any materials that can be reused will be sorted out.” This of course leaves any unrecyclable materials for the landfill.

In a CarPoint.com article (at http://www.carpoint.com.au/car-news/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabID=500648&ArticleID=5487&R=ce5487) , author Glenn Butler, outlines “THE HIDDEN COST OF HYBRID CARS.” Butler states, “The battery unit, which has a lifespan of 8-10 years - shorter in hotter climates - cannot be reconditioned. It must be thrown out and replaced with a new one, at considerable cost to the owner.” “Both Toyota and Honda were unable to tell CarPoint exactly how much of the battery could be recycled. Both have left the task of recycling in the hands of a third party recycler.” Butler warns against the careless disposable of Ni-MH batteries, due to the toxicity of it main derivative, nickel. "The main derivative is nickel, which is considered semi-toxic. Nickel-metal-hydride also contains electrolyte that, in large amounts, is hazardous. If no disposal service is available in an area,” the nickel-metal-hydride batteries will be disposed of “…other household wastes.” Butler warns that if ten or more batteries are accumulated, the user should dispose of these packs in a secure waste landfill." Battery packs like that used by Toyota in the Prius, contain up to 28 groups of six Ni-MH battery cells.

Oh, and based on the information in these websites and others on the subject, you are about 1/2 way through the usable life of your hybrid batteries. So you may want to start thinking about this.
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