Hybrids - Hybrids ! Get them off the HOV lanes !!

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Hybrids ! Get them off the HOV lanes !!

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Topic: Hybrids ! Get them off the HOV lanes !!

Posted By: ronsray
Subject: Hybrids ! Get them off the HOV lanes !!
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2004 at 2:49pm

I have seen a lot of complaining lately about Hybrids on the HOV lanes. VDOT says thet 4% of cars on the HOV's are alternative fuel vehicles. Well my count sometimes says the number is closer to 10-15% and rising ! These cars are causing the HOV lanes to backup. What's next ???? Free parking for Hybrids ?? No Registration required ??? Skip to the front of the line at Starbucks ??? Help us do away with this problem. Write or email your state representatives, senators, delegates, even the Governor, etc..... Tell them to get these vehicles off our HOV lanes !! Unless of course they pick up a few riders [:)]
Virginia State Senators-- http://sov.state.va.us/SenatorDB.nsf/$$Viewtemplate+for+WMembershipHome?OpenForm
Virginia House of Delegates -- http://dela.state.va.us/dela/MemBios.nsf/MWebsiteTL?OpenView
Governor Warner -- http://www.governor.virginia.gov/Contact/Contact.html
Virginia Congressional Delegation -- http://www.virginia.gov/cmsportal/government_881/government_1046/officials_1355/congressional_1351/index.html

Ron

Replies:

Posted By: ScarletLSG
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2004 at 3:40pm

Ron,

I disagree with you on your numbers. They Hybrid % is MUCH lower than the ILLEGAL violator percentage. Every morning I keep a count and the number of law breaking violators is generally upwards to 40% of the vehicles in the HOV lanes. This morning alone, I saw 5 cars exit to the regular lanes through the emergency/police only openings. I'm guessing that they heard through radio traffic reports of an exit that had police waiting for them to come through. At the SAME time during my morning commute, I only counted a total of FOUR vehicles with the CF plates ... to include those with personalized plates. The backups aren't caused by the Hybrids ... they are caused by the paranoid violators.

Appreciate the links though. I made good use of them.

ScarletLSG

Posted By: pplmvrs
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2004 at 4:09pm

Most of the cars I noticed with just one person in them were actual violators, not Hybrids. I do not think that Hybrids are the number one reason for congestion on the HOV. Alot of back ups happen when people stop to look at police that have pulled people over or people who are violating slow down and switch lanes whenever they see a police car.

Posted By: tdar20
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2004 at 9:46pm

Got to agree that the violators pose a much greater problem. Yes there are a lot of Hybrids but until the law is changed, and it does not look like it will anytime soon, they are legal. Better to focus on the real issue, the violators out there.

Posted By: jc9
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2004 at 12:11pm

I have to disagree with the recent posts and say that when I travel on HOV, I usually notice more hybrids that violators. But to be honest, I don't think that's the issue...It's not - which group is causing the more congestion than another - it's that ANY cause for congestion that CAN be fixed, SHOULD be fixed. Hybrids should have to meet the HOV-3 restriction just like other commuters...this will reduce the overall number of cars on the road. Period. Why are there any exceptions in the first place? It's ridiculous, and I will be writing letters. Thanks for the contact info ronsray.

Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2004 at 12:20pm

The number of violators between 6:30AM and around 8:45 is not even close to the number of cars with "CF" plates. From what I've seen, most of the violators during that time are Hybrids without the required plates.

In total numbers, there probably more cheaters than hybrids, but they don't account for congestion that lingers until 8:00AM some days.

Congestion is far worse and more common than it was two years ago, and I think there were more cheaters back then.

Posted By: ScarletLSG
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2004 at 12:39pm

MDC,

I too have seen MANY Hybrids without the required plates and I count them in my "violator" count. The law specifically states that the Hybrid car in the HOV lanes MUST have a registered CF plate ... can be personalized, but must have the symbol.

ScarletLSG

quote:
Originally posted by MDC
[br]The number of violators between 6:30AM and around 8:45 is not even close to the number of cars with "CF" plates. From what I've seen, most of the violators during that time are Hybrids without the required plates.

In total numbers, there probably more cheaters than hybrids, but they don't account for congestion that lingers until 8:00AM some days.

Congestion is far worse and more common than it was two years ago, and I think there were more cheaters back then.

Posted By: Subaru
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2004 at 10:08am

This morning as I approached the exit to the pentagon. I was sittin in the long line to get off ( around 650 ) and I counted 19 Hybrids. I see the few cheaters. But Hybrids def. out number the cheaters around that time. I see more cheaters at night when going home around 345- 4.

Posted By: pplmvrs
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2004 at 10:10am

I agree with Scarlet..when I said that I see more violators than Hybrids, I was talking about Hybrids with CF tags, those without are just violators like all the others.

Posted By: vabigblue
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2004 at 11:08am

quote:
Originally posted by pplmvrs
[br]I agree with Scarlet..when I said that I see more violators than Hybrids, I was talking about Hybrids with CF tags, those without are just violators like all the others.

Are hybrids without CF tags cheaters? I assumed hybrids were hybrids and they all counted as being legal on HOV lanes. I even see out of state hybrids cruising along without a care.

Posted By: Stuck2
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2004 at 12:34pm

Hybrids to qualify for exemption have to have the special plates. And non-VA hybrids do not qualify. Wonder if they know they could get ticketed?

Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2004 at 12:37pm

Posted By: emancilla
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2004 at 12:38pm

They need to get CF tags before attempting to enter the HOV lanes. No exemption should be allow.

Posted By: ronsray
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2004 at 12:54pm

Another reason to get Hybrids off the HOV Lanes -----

Want an interesting FACT about Hybrids. They actually get better gas mileage in CITY driving than in HIGHWAY driving. The Toyota Prius gets 60 mpg city, 51 mpg hwy. So they actually get better mileage in that stop & go stuff !!!! Therefore if the Govt really wants to save gas, put the Hybrids on the main lanes & get a few more gas guzzlers in HOV !!!!
See the mileage figures for yourself----http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_sbs.shtml

Ron

Posted By: vabigblue
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2004 at 1:10pm

vabigblue,
Out of state "clean fuel" vehicles are specifically not exempt from HOV. Cars that "qualify" for the "clean fuel" exemption, MUST have "clean special fuel" tags to use HOV with less than the specified number of occupants.

It's all in the law, and has been posted and linked here several times.

They need to get CF tags before attempting to enter the HOV lanes. No exemption should be allow.

Thanks a lot, I just wondered if they were allowed because when I do see out of staters and/or those without CF tags, they act is if they have all the qualifications to ride in the HOV lanes. Law enforcement doesn't seem to do anything about these vehicles. Interesting

Posted By: dixeedog
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2004 at 1:17pm

boo to the hybribs boo on you

Posted By: SlugBuddy
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2004 at 3:00pm

Both the hybrids and the cheaters are problems on the HOV. In my opinion the hybrids don't meet all the specifications for why HOV was created. Yes, they are better environmentally but they don't get any vehicles off the road. The purpose of HOV is two-fold, and hybrids only address one of the issues. They should have to have the required number of passengers to ride in the HOV lanes. I think the tax break when they purchase the car and cheaper gas is incentive enough!! Violators are by far the biggest problem though. I never see the police out enforcing when I leave in the evenings (5:15-5:30) and the violators are clogging up the HOV lanes. It gets me all fired up!! In addition to the email addresses ronsray provided, here is a POC with the state police who you can complain to about the number of violators: bcox@vsp.state.va.us . Let our voices be heard!!

Posted By: JiggaJynx
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2004 at 7:50am

Question about those Hybrids. Someone months back mentioned that they smell. Has anyone else noticed that? The first time I got a rotten egg smell behind one, I couldn't believe it, but when I passed the Hybrid, the smell went away. Then this past weekend I got stuck behind a Hybrid on a two-lane, twisty highway, and my pax and I had to endure miles of that smell before the offending car turned off. So much for low emissions.

Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2004 at 8:07am

Jigga,
Most hybrids sold in Virginia are not low emissions according to the EPA. They are only in the "better than average" category. Cars like the Volvo S80, and Acura MDX actually get better ratings emissions-wise than most(2003 and prior years) of the hybrids seen on the HOV lanes today.

The ratings on 2004 model hybrids are much improved over previous years, but there are still several cars with better pollution scores(and no "CF" exemption) that are sold in Virginia.

I haven't noticed any smell though.

Posted By: vabigblue
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2004 at 10:42am

Someone in another thread did mention a "rotten egg" type smell. Has anyone else experienced that?

Posted By: ScarletLSG
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2004 at 11:05am

I drive a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid and there's no smell what-so-ever. I have a very sensitive sniffer and haven't noticed ANY smell at all. Hmmmmmmm.

ScarletLSG

Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2004 at 11:21am

Yes, I too have noticed the smell on numerous occasions. It can be very bad and appears worse when the hybrid is accelerating. (By the way, this is sulfur dioxide, which is an air pollutant and causes acid rain). It may be that these cars are not tuned right. I will ask an expert I know if he has heard of this and whether it is a general characteristic or just a tuneup problem.

Bob

Posted By: ScarletLSG
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2004 at 12:25pm

Bob,

Would the driver of a Hybrid be able to smell this?? If I don't smell it, can I assume that my car is tuned properly? I take it to the dealership religiously for oil changes, scheduled maintenance and anything else.

ScarletLSG

Posted By: ronsray
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2004 at 12:46pm

Another reason to get the Hybrids off the HOV lanes !!!
They stink !![:(!]

Ron

Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2004 at 12:48pm

If as I suspect it happens on acceleration you probably wouldnt smell it since the car would be moving. Although I have noticed this several times, I really have no idea if this is any kind of widespread problem. Since I commute around the same time each day, it may have actually even been the same car doing it.

Posted By: Arbo
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2004 at 1:19pm

A "clean special fuel" license plate does NOT have to have the letters CF on it. The words "clean special fuel" are on the bottom of the plate. I have seen numerous CF vehicles with personelized "clean special fuel" plates that don't have the CF on them.

In the 3.5 years I've been in Stafford, I've noticed the traffic on I93/395 increasing as a whole. To decrease the congestion in the HOV lanes we need to cut down on the total number of cars in those lanes, both legally and ilegally. I propose the state legislature do the following: 1) get rid of all the exceptions to HOV (e.g. CF vehicles, off duty emergency responders) except for on-duty law enforcement and vehicles actively responding to an emergency; 2) return to HOV-4 on the I-95/395 corridor, with no exception for vehicles that cannot hold 4 or more people except for motorcycles (I don't think they contribute significantly to the congestion), and; 3) use the income generated from ticketing HOV violators for increasing police patrols of HOV and increased enforcement of HOV.

Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2004 at 5:24pm

quote:
Originally posted by Bob
[br]If as I suspect it happens on acceleration you probably wouldnt smell it since the car would be moving. Although I have noticed this several times, I really have no idea if this is any kind of widespread problem. Since I commute around the same time each day, it may have actually even been the same car doing it.

It could be the emissions system is shot. Hybrid car emissions aren't tested every two years like everyone else and if there is a problem with the emissions system no one will ever know to correct it. Too bad since it wouldn't cost the owner a thing to get it fixed under warranty.
There is another possibility. If it was a Prius it could have been the engine turning on. Turning the engine on is one of the dirtiest points in car emissions because, among other things, the catalytic converter is not heated up to operating temperature. The new Prius has an electric catalytic converter pre-heater to help minimize this. I'm not sure if the older prius had this. The Civic hybrid engine stays on and wouldn't have this problem. It's a trade-off, emissions while iding versus one short period of increased emissions.

Posted By: spolastre
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2004 at 11:17am

Ron, I feel the same way. Even though they use clean fuel, they are increasing traffic. If you want to help the environment, instead of getting in the car and slowing down traffic on the HOV, why don't you pick up people that do not have Hybrids and by doing that, you will be helping the earth in two ways.

Posted By: Uhura
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2004 at 7:46am

quote:
Originally posted by ronsray
[br]I have seen a lot of complaining lately about Hybrids on the HOV lanes. VDOT says thet 4% of cars on the HOV's are alternative fuel vehicles. Well my count sometimes says the number is closer to 10-15% and rising ! These cars are causing the HOV lanes to backup. What's next ???? Free parking for Hybrids ?? No Registration required ??? Skip to the front of the line at Starbucks ??? Help us do away with this problem. Write or email your state representatives, senators, delegates, even the Governor, etc..... Tell them to get these vehicles off our HOV lanes !! Unless of course they pick up a few riders [:)]
Virginia State Senators-- http://sov.state.va.us/SenatorDB.nsf/$$Viewtemplate+for+WMembershipHome?OpenForm
Virginia House of Delegates -- http://dela.state.va.us/dela/MemBios.nsf/MWebsiteTL?OpenView
Governor Warner -- http://www.governor.virginia.gov/Contact/Contact.html
Virginia Congressional Delegation -- http://www.virginia.gov/cmsportal/government_881/government_1046/officials_1355/congressional_1351/index.html

Ron

Thanks for posting those links! I was able to send an email message to Gov Warner about this.

I am seeing more & more of these vehicles on the HOV. This, in combination with the number of violators makes for a crowded HOV...

Live Long and Prosper

Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2004 at 1:34pm

quote:
Originally posted by spolastre
[br]Ron, I feel the same way. Even though they use clean fuel, they are increasing traffic. If you want to help the environment, instead of getting in the car and slowing down traffic on the HOV, why don't you pick up people that do not have Hybrids and by doing that, you will be helping the earth in two ways.

Hybrids don't use a clean fuel. They use gas just like most other cars. That's part of the gripe with them, they aren't cleaner than a lot of other cars and yet they still get special treatment. There is no logic to including hybrids in the clean special fuel exemption other than to let people buy their way out of the regular lanes and to increase the sales of Honda and Toyota. This "clean fuel" law should reflect tested emissions, not perceived(ie marketing hype) emissions. At the very least they need to require Honda to sell the cleaner version of their hybrids here instead of the stripped down dirtier version.

Posted By: spolastre
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2004 at 11:08am

I didn't know that. Thank you. Now I am really going to start having signs all over my car that say "Death to Hybrids." JK. [:o)]

quote:
Originally posted by Wagonman
[br]
quote:
Originally posted by spolastre
[br]Ron, I feel the same way. Even though they use clean fuel, they are increasing traffic. If you want to help the environment, instead of getting in the car and slowing down traffic on the HOV, why don't you pick up people that do not have Hybrids and by doing that, you will be helping the earth in two ways.

Hybrids don't use a clean fuel. They use gas just like most other cars. That's part of the gripe with them, they aren't cleaner than a lot of other cars and yet they still get special treatment. There is no logic to including hybrids in the clean special fuel exemption other than to let people buy their way out of the regular lanes and to increase the sales of Honda and Toyota. This "clean fuel" law should reflect tested emissions, not perceived(ie marketing hype) emissions. At the very least they need to require Honda to sell the cleaner version of their hybrids here instead of the stripped down dirtier version.

Posted By: Stuck2
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2004 at 11:18am

I don't think you mean "death to hybrids" but "death to exemptions" for everyone who doesn't comply with HOV-3 (I think police and motorcycles should get off the road too). Hybrids do get better gas mileage, but they aren't what they are advertised to be. It's a step in the right direction for more fuel efficient autos.

Posted By: Uhura
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2004 at 11:32am

quote:
Originally posted by Wagonman
[br]
quote:
Originally posted by spolastre
[br]Ron, I feel the same way. Even though they use clean fuel, they are increasing traffic. If you want to help the environment, instead of getting in the car and slowing down traffic on the HOV, why don't you pick up people that do not have Hybrids and by doing that, you will be helping the earth in two ways.

Hybrids don't use a clean fuel. They use gas just like most other cars. That's part of the gripe with them, they aren't cleaner than a lot of other cars and yet they still get special treatment. There is no logic to including hybrids in the clean special fuel exemption other than to let people buy their way out of the regular lanes and to increase the sales of Honda and Toyota. This "clean fuel" law should reflect tested emissions, not perceived(ie marketing hype) emissions. At the very least they need to require Honda to sell the cleaner version of their hybrids here instead of the stripped down dirtier version.

Wow-I didn't know that! Do you happen to know of a website etc where I could read about this?

Live Long and Prosper

Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2004 at 2:43pm

quote:
Originally posted by Uhura

Wow-I didn't know that! Do you happen to know of a website etc where I could read about this?

Live Long and Prosper

Go to Honda's website and read all the fine print. Or try the EPA's green vehicle guide and pay attention to sales areas and engine codes for all the different model of the hybrids. For example:
http://www.epa.gov./greenvehicles/E-HONDA-CivicHybrid-04.htm

The engine code 4HNXV01.35A6 (under vehicle specs) is the one sold here. Now look at the sales area for this engine code. The sales area that includes Virginia gets a 6 score...not very good. What the sales area really means is what gasoline is used for testing. Since California has the CARB gasoline that runs very clean, the car in that sales are gets a better score. For some idiotic reason, the 5 northeastern states that use CARB standards get that rating even though they don't sell CARB gasoline there. You can see how they are included in the sales area with California.
For the rest of the country the rating is based on using regular gasoline. That's how we get the 6 rating here. Just to fully disclose all the details we do have reformulated gasoline in the metro DC area, but not the whole state. It is cleaner than regular gas, but not as clean as CARB gas. So the true rating here may be a 6 or 7. There is no way to know, but remember the other "normal cars" ratings would also increase with reformulated gas. Even if the Honda hybrid did get a 7 here, it still wouldn't be cleaner than a lot of other cars on the road.
If you look at those rating you can also see how misleading the SULEV rating is. The other engine code is the cleaner version that is sold in California and gets their SULVEV rating. Notice how it get a 10 rating in CA while using CARB gasoline, but only an 8 while using regular gasoline. I always here people saying that their SULEV rated car is 90% cleaner than the average car. What they are saying is that their car running on CARB gas pollutes 90% less than the average car running on regular gasoline. This is comparing apples to oranges since the cars are running on different fuels. The SULEV rated Honda hybrid spits out 5-6 times as much pollution running on regular gas versus CARB gas and the average car would spit out a lot less pollution if run on the CARB gas instead of the regular gasoline. Just look at how many "normal cars" score a 10 in the California market!
The public perception that hybrids are inherently cleaner than regular cars is a fallacy. Hybrids are only more fuel efficient, not cleaner running. Now if you want to take into account the environmental pollution related to having to procure more oil, then you might have an argument. But as far as air quality around the metro DC area is concerned, hybrids aren't helping one bit. They are actually hurting by inducing people to not bother carpooling. This is why they need to be removed from the HOV lanes, they aren't deserving of a clean fuel exemption.

Sorry I keep repeating myself. But I'm hoping that if I keep repeating myself it will sink in to more people.

Posted By: Uhura
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2004 at 2:59pm

quote:
Originally posted by Wagonman
[br]
quote:
Originally posted by Uhura

Wow-I didn't know that! Do you happen to know of a website etc where I could read about this?

Live Long and Prosper

Go to Honda's website and read all the fine print. Or try the EPA's green vehicle guide and pay attention to sales areas and engine codes for all the different model of the hybrids. For example:
http://www.epa.gov./greenvehicles/E-HONDA-CivicHybrid-04.htm

The engine code 4HNXV01.35A6 (under vehicle specs) is the one sold here. Now look at the sales area for this engine code. The sales area that includes Virginia gets a 6 score...not very good. What the sales area really means is what gasoline is used for testing. Since California has the CARB gasoline that runs very clean, the car in that sales are gets a better score. For some idiotic reason, the 5 northeastern states that use CARB standards get that rating even though they don't sell CARB gasoline there. You can see how they are included in the sales area with California.
For the rest of the country the rating is based on using regular gasoline. That's how we get the 6 rating here. Just to fully disclose all the details we do have reformulated gasoline in the metro DC area, but not the whole state. It is cleaner than regular gas, but not as clean as CARB gas. So the true rating here may be a 6 or 7. There is no way to know, but remember the other "normal cars" ratings would also increase with reformulated gas. Even if the Honda hybrid did get a 7 here, it still wouldn't be cleaner than a lot of other cars on the road.
If you look at those rating you can also see how misleading the SULEV rating is. The other engine code is the cleaner version that is sold in California and gets their SULVEV rating. Notice how it get a 10 rating in CA while using CARB gasoline, but only an 8 while using regular gasoline. I always here people saying that their SULEV rated car is 90% cleaner than the average car. What they are saying is that their car running on CARB gas pollutes 90% less than the average car running on regular gasoline. This is comparing apples to oranges since the cars are running on different fuels. The SULEV rated Honda hybrid spits out 5-6 times as much pollution running on regular gas versus CARB gas and the average car would spit out a lot less pollution if run on the CARB gas instead of the regular gasoline. Just look at how many "normal cars" score a 10 in the California market!
The public perception that hybrids are inherently cleaner than regular cars is a fallacy. Hybrids are only more fuel efficient, not cleaner running. Now if you want to take into account the environmental pollution related to having to procure more oil, then you might have an argument. But as far as air quality around the metro DC area is concerned, hybrids aren't helping one bit. They are actually hurting by inducing people to not bother carpooling. This is why they need to be removed from the HOV lanes, they aren't deserving of a clean fuel exemption.

Sorry I keep repeating myself. But I'm hoping that if I keep repeating myself it will sink in to more people.

This is really disappointing. I think most of us would hope that these vehicles are less damaging to the environment or that car makers are making an honest attempt to move in that direction...

Live Long and Prosper

Posted By: sancochojoe
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2004 at 8:08am

I don't think its the hybrids at all they just seem to be the easiest group to blame, because they are so visible to everyone.

I think its the increased amount of people moving into the suburbs due to the high cost of living closer to DC. Developments are sprouting up everywhere, south of DC. I would imagine the majority of the residents moving to the suburbs will be additional commuters driving on I-95 and HOV. So it would be logical to conclude that even if they dropped Hybrids from driving on the HOV lanes, congestion on the HOV lanes will continue to persist. Removing Hybrids is only a bandade solution to the real problem. As voters, focus should be put towards addressing the outdated 3 lane I-95 and the lack of alternate routes to move people south towards the Fredericksburg area. Maybe a revamping of Route 1 into an express way would help. The increased population in the suburbs is not going to decrease anytime soon and blaming Hybrids is the least of our problems. The more people moving towards Fredricksburg, the more trafic you will see on both the HOV and I-95. Especially if upgrade construction change on the HOV, I-95 and Route-1 remains static.
It does not appear to be anytime soon.

Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2004 at 9:36am

sancochojoe,
Hybrids are the #1 issue in the HOV, repeat HOV, lanes. Remove them and see how much HOV improves.

Are you suggesting that they be ignored, and things left as-is, even though they are NOT even CLEAN FUEL cars?

Posted By: Stuck2
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2004 at 9:45am

Originally posted by sancochojoe

You are correct that the real problem is the increased population because the HOV was backing up long before Hybrids were introduced. Probably the only real solution to the traffic problem is a better public transportation systems = trains, light rail. Hybrids bear the brunt of everyone's ire because they are visible, so if you can pick up extra riders do so. The slug system does make it more flexible that a formal carpool.

Posted By: ScarletLSG
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2004 at 10:01am

Stuck2

I AGREE -- I AGREE -- I AGREE. More and better public transportation!!! I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to get up, put my butt on a train and get to work. Unless a person is going to the center of D.C. though, there really aren't any good public transportation options. I also think that a VERY important need is a BY-PASS AROUND the the NoVa/D.C./Baltimore area. All of the North/South coastal traffic MUST go straight through here to go up and down the coast, and that doesn't help at all. I've actually begun to believe that the rush hours aren't the worst times to travel here. Weekends and nights, I almost don't want to get on the road at all either.

ScarletLSG

>>Probably the only real solution to the traffic problem is a better public transportation systems = trains, light rail. Hybrids bear the brunt of everyone's ire because they are visible, so if you can pick up extra riders do so.<<

Posted By: Uhura
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2004 at 1:13pm

quote:
Originally posted by ScarletLSG
[br]Stuck2

I AGREE -- I AGREE -- I AGREE. More and better public transportation!!! I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to get up, put my butt on a train and get to work. Unless a person is going to the center of D.C. though, there really aren't any good public transportation options. I also think that a VERY important need is a BY-PASS AROUND the the NoVa/D.C./Baltimore area. All of the North/South coastal traffic MUST go straight through here to go up and down the coast, and that doesn't help at all. I've actually begun to believe that the rush hours aren't the worst times to travel here. Weekends and nights, I almost don't want to get on the road at all either.

ScarletLSG

>>Probably the only real solution to the traffic problem is a better public transportation systems = trains, light rail. Hybrids bear the brunt of everyone's ire because they are visible, so if you can pick up extra riders do so.<<

A train system from the Potomac Mills area that fed dirctly into the Metro rail would be great, but would a train system change the "suburban feel" of the area? I'm kind of divided about this...

Live Long and Prosper

Posted By: Stuck2
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2004 at 1:50pm

Well, given the population explosion, can't really plan to keep the "burb" outlook on life. In Europe, could get around without a car in the "burbs." Why not here? I know this is off topic and I suggest changing topic to "10,000 ways to say 'I hate Hybrids!'", because hybrids won't get of HOV lanes, they'll just have to be HOV3.

Posted By: Cousin Caterpillar
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2004 at 2:03pm

Hybrids ! Get them off the HOV lanes !!

This topic brings a couple things to mind.

First, Georgia has devised a carrot~n~stick based approach to keep hybrid owners in a constant state of HOVL confusion.

Carrot - Use an http://www.dmvs.ga.gov/forms/pdf/motor/MV-9Z.pdf - AFV Tag application that creates the illusion that hybrid owners can use HOVLs 24/7, no passenger required, in exchange for an annual $25 "highway user" fee.

Stick - Swarm down on the unsuspecting hybrid driver with the full force of http://www.dot.state.ga.us/specialsubjects/hov/hov-afv.shtml - (G)DOT HOVL Law as soon as the first hybrid tire breeches the HOVL space.

After this harrowing experience, most hybrid owners sell the hybrid, change their identity and buy a normal vehicle, just as fast as you can say http://www.stopsuvs.org/html/hummer_models.htm - His 'n Her Hummers .

There are exceptions, such as http://www.mindspring.com/~tcoonan/insight.html - this fellow , who not only kept his hybrid but actually had the courage to post the truth about his crime spree on the web! GOD BLESS YOU, MAN! RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE!
You might have noticed that the last update to his MPG table was 6/27/01, just a few short weeks after his brush with the law, but I'm sure it's just coincidence.

Oh yeah. The second thing is, does anyone have a link to a site where I might find topics like this one?

Motor Vehicles ! Get them off the HOV lanes and all other roadways!!

(first post) Uhhh...maybe it's just me but has anyone else noticed that motor vehicles..uhhhh, well, stink?

nostrildumas

(no one else responds)

Sorry...lost my head...I think I'm deep-breathing too much exhaust during my bike commute.

just cuz

[edit] Replaced "Lincoln Navigator" with "His 'n Her Hummers"[/edit]
[edit] added stink[/edit]

Posted By: jumpmanz5
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2004 at 1:32pm

If one of the benefits of owning a Hybrid is riding in the HOV without any passengers, what's my benefit of owning a regular car? Nothing!! I get to sit in the HOV with violators and Hybrid drivers, which just increases the traffic there. What's going to happen when the number of Hybrid owners increase by 50%? When that happens you'll have to then ask what's the benefit of the HOV lines? And again Nothing!! It's just going to be full of single drivers (violators and Hybrids)!!!!

Regardless of what vehicle you drive it should meet the HOV requirement of 3 passengers. Let the Troopers weed out the violators with higher ticket fines and point on your record.

Posted By: Stuck2
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2004 at 1:58pm

So you are saying that police and motorcycles should be kicked off too? Old and tiresome discussion. Hybrids will eventually lose exemption. If you are peeved, please write your politician -- only way you can constructive be heard. I believe the addresses have been posted many times before. But until such a time that the exemption is gone, it's just another thing you have to live with -- along with the construction, silly accidents, and so forth and so on.

Posted By: Cousin Caterpillar
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2004 at 1:11am

If one of the benefits of owning a Hybrid is riding in the HOV without any passengers, what's my benefit of owning a regular car?

Glad you asked, jumpman!

TOP 10 BENEFITS OF OWNING A REGULAR CAR

10. You can pick up a gallon of milk in half the time it took Sally Hemming's kids to milk a cow.

9. A regular car simplifies your tax return.

8. Slugs tell you your regular car is their best ride ever.

7. You almost never see the energizer bunny in your rear-view mirror.

6. You boycott nuclear energy by burning solar-derived dinofuel.

5. Your neighbors think you're less weird.

4. You can use your Demolition Derby skills to force hybrids out of the HOV lanes.

3. You can travel more miles in a day than Jesus walked in his lifetime.

2. A regular car brings back sweet memories of regular gas.

1. Nothing!!

just cuz

[edit]Added italics[/edit]

Posted By: Stuck2
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2004 at 9:06am

Now that's funny!

Posted By: Mrs.KLB
Date Posted: 23 Jul 2004 at 2:20pm

Oh who cares those little ugly vehicles are here to stay! end of story, the end yada yada yada!!!

Mrs. B

Posted By: Geezehead
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2004 at 8:38am

I am proud of the little Hybrid drivers today. I saw at least three different vehicles, all with 3 people in them. Wonderful! I can only assume that the self absorbed attitude is dissolving, and many others are doing the same, picking up slugs. How do I know this? Traffic was again a breeze, I'll attribute it to the fact that for each of these vehicles, there were two less Hybrids on the road. I know, I know, it is mid-summer and that may have something to do with it....but let me enjoy the moment proudly. See, it wasn't that tough, was it?

Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2004 at 8:46am

Wait till September. Believe me, they will all be back from their little vacations, "en masse".

Incidentally, does anyone know if they are allowing the hybrid sport utes to have the exception? Has anyone actually seen one yet? I probably sent about 5 emails over the past 6 months trying to prevent this from happening.

Bob

Posted By: tlschau
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2004 at 1:01pm

I'm not certain, but the way the law is currently written I think they will have to let hybrid suv's on HOV.

Incidentally, I read something interesting on VDOT's FAQ section of its website the other day:

Q: Can I use Virginia's HOV lanes in my hybrid vehicle even though my car is registered in Maryland?

A: In order for a hybrid vehicle to use Virginia's HOV lanes, you must have Virginia clean special fuel license plates. This is the only way we have to monitor the use of these lanes when there is only one individual in a car. In order for Virginia to honor Maryland plates, we would need a reciprocal agreement between the two states, and no such agreement exists to our knowledge.

I know that's it's not a big deal, but I have seen a number of out-of-state hybrids on HOV.

quote:
Originally posted by Bob
[br]Wait till September. Believe me, they will all be back from their little vacations, "en masse".

Incidentally, does anyone know if they are allowing the hybrid sport utes to have the exception? Has anyone actually seen one yet? I probably sent about 5 emails over the past 6 months trying to prevent this from happening.

Bob

Posted By: JiggaJynx
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2004 at 9:35am

quote:
Originally posted by tlschau
I know that's it's not a big deal, but I have seen a number of out-of-state hybrids on HOV.

Me, too. This morning at about 6:45, within a two-minute period, I saw one hybrid with an out-of-state plate and one with a regular Virginia tag. Of course, there were also plenty of other violators at that time and not one patrol car.

Posted By: vabigblue
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2004 at 3:52pm

Even if law enforcement wanted to cite these "out of state" and/or "regular license plate" hybrids, how would they justify the citation? I mean, a hybrid is a hybrid, regardless of where it's from or what type plates it has. I believe its a now-win for law enforcement to cite these vehicles. If any hybrid belongs on HOV, all belong.

Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2004 at 4:39pm

Hybrids don't qualify for CF tags under the current regulation as it's written, just how it's being implemented.

Apparently nothing matters other than the "hybrid" decal. I have seen the same Alaska tagged hybrid in HOV dozens of times over the last few years, though it appears that the owner might have upgraded to a newer hybrid since I saw a new one with Alaska tags not too long ago.

Posted By: Stuck2
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2004 at 4:57pm

HOV 4 is impractical. Also you forgot one major reason for increase in traffic -- increase in population. So, in your proposal, add stop mass construction of houses, increase taxes to pay for new roads, and tell people to stop moving into NOVA area. Stop turning farms into subdivisions. Oh, yeah. Reinstate the car tax to pay for the schools and roads.

Posted By: ronin718
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2004 at 7:47am

quote:
Originally posted by Stuck2
[br]... tell people to stop moving into NOVA area.

Tell people to stop moving into the NOVA area??? Where do you propose they go? DC schools are the pits, single family homes are rare and are well beyond the reach of the average person, they can't vote, and their taxes are the highest in the area. MD would just end up like NOVA, and in some respects it already is, but with somewhat better Metro support (if you throw out the constant delays on the Red line [:p]).

This seems to be a case of "I got mine, the rest of you need to go elsewhere". Face it, the jobs are in this area, and people are going to go where the jobs are. That's another reason housing construction is up. Be grateful that you have your job, and let others have theirs. If you get tired of the traffic and commute, do like I'm doing --- find a job two miles from home and jump on it. [8D]

Posted By: DC2RV
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2004 at 7:56am

I saw a modified Ford F-150 a few days ago. What's next, fleets of modified dumptrucks cruising the HOV? That's an exaggeration of course, but Virginia sure has opened HOV up to special exemptions. Perhaps they should change the name from HOV to HOSE - High Occupancy/Special Exemption Lanes?

Posted By: Stuck2
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2004 at 9:14am

Where are they to go? Maybe the Moon? or Mars?[:o)]

Really, just joking on the not moving to NOVA. The only thing remotely realistic is to keep HOV 3; close the lanes to non-HOV at Edsall; remove exemptions. But all this is just bandaids because as population increases so does the road traffic. Unless the area is willing to pay for mass public transportation, just don't see any lightening up on traffic in general.

Would be nice to see some of the decent paying jobs leave the city.

Posted By: ronin718
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2004 at 9:31am

Okay, so I need to re-engage my humor chip... As for the jobs, I guess it depends on your field. The IT jobs are paying pretty good out towards Dulles, at least if you have a clearance.

Posted By: ScarletLSG
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2004 at 9:40am

Even a decent paying IT job can't generally provide income enough for a mortgage in THAT area. Shoot, I'd need TWO of my "decent paying" IT jobs to live up there. And costs are RISING as the jobs reestablish along the corridor.

ScarletLSG

quote:
Originally posted by ronin718
[br]Okay, so I need to re-engage my humor chip... As for the jobs, I guess it depends on your field. The IT jobs are paying pretty good out towards Dulles, at least if you have a clearance.

Posted By: ronin718
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2004 at 9:48am

Well, I suppose the military retirement check helps a little... [8D] ... but you can still find some SFHs below $300K.

Posted By: Stuck2
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2004 at 9:56am

Of course, we have delved off topic. But hey it's good for a chat. I would expect to decrease my income by about 1/2 if I left my firm.

Maybe the policitians should start reading the posts so they could get a feel for what the area really needs.

Humor is good thing to have in traffic, along with a good CD.

Posted By: Arbo
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2004 at 3:57pm

Stuck2 -- Why is HOV-4 impractical?

Posted By: Stuck2
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2004 at 4:39pm

I've been in car pools before and coordinating 4 people is like pulling eye-teeth. I've also gone to slug lines where there were only 2 people for my destination. Imagine having to wait and wait for another as the 6:00 bewitching hour approaches? I think HOV3 is just more manageable.

Posted By: JiggaJynx
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2004 at 6:35pm

Although I don't have little ones, I agree with HOV-3 vs. HOV-4 because of child seats. It is difficult to wrestle the child seat out every morning to pick up passengers and hard to reinstall it properly each evening to collect the child from daycare. I've also ridden in cars that had the child seat in the middle of the back seat, and there are precious few cars today that were designed for three occupants in the back, even if one is a "skinny" child seat.

Posted By: CUCV_Owner
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2004 at 10:13pm

quote:
Originally posted by Arbo
[br]Stuck2 -- Why is HOV-4 impractical?

Have you ever tried to put four people in the bench seat of a pickup? Three is hard enough!

[:D]

--
Politicians should serve two terms... a term in office followed by a term in jail.

Posted By: USA
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2004 at 3:38pm

quote:
Originally posted by DC2RV
[br]I saw a modified Ford F-150 a few days ago. What's next, fleets of modified dumptrucks cruising the HOV? That's an exaggeration of course, but Virginia sure has opened HOV up to special exemptions. Perhaps they should change the name from HOV to HOSE - High Occupancy/Special Exemption Lanes?

The CNG and propane vehicles are permitted under federal regulations--that has nothing to do with Virginia. Theoretically you could buy a Ferrari, get it modified for CNG, and go solo in the HOV lanes, although why anyone would ruin a Ferrari like that is beyond me.

Posted By: ronin718
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2004 at 8:03am

quote:
[i]The CNG and propane vehicles are permitted under federal regulations--that has nothing to do with Virginia. Theoretically you could buy a Ferrari, get it modified for CNG, and go solo in the HOV lanes, although why anyone would ruin a Ferrari like that is beyond me.

So they can drive solo in the HOV lanes!!! Is there a better reason??? [:P] (Please note the dripping sarcasm)

Posted By: JiggaJynx
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2004 at 4:52pm

quote:
Originally posted by SweetLibby
[br] I do thank you hybrid drivers for improving the environment by cutting down on carbon monoxide emissions resulting in less greenhouse gases.

Does this mean three hybrids together produce fewer emissions than one standard sedan? That regular car with three people takes two other cars off the road. Where's Wagonman? Want to weigh in with more info on the emissions produced by hybrids burning gasoline at highway speed?

Posted By: emancilla
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2004 at 5:06pm

I just ask myself: would hybrids be as popular as they're right now if authorities wouldn't have let them be exempt for HOV lanes from the beginning?

Posted By: ronin718
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2004 at 7:55am

And the answer to that is probably no, at least not when gas was still below $1.50 a gallon. But I'm still betting the demand wouldn't be as high in this area without the HOV exemption. I guess we'll find out in 2006 when the exemption ends.

Posted By: vabigblue
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2004 at 1:31pm

I am recently seeing hybrids with a "CX" suffix - is the state of Virginia going to that rather than taking "CF" number past 10K?