Hybrids - a threat to car-pooling?
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Forum Name: Hybrids
Forum Description: This area is devoted to the discussion of hybrid vehicles and their impact to the HOV.
URL: http://www.slug-lines.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=122
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Topic: Hybrids - a threat to car-pooling?
Posted By: Bob
Subject: Hybrids - a threat to car-pooling?
Date Posted: 30 May 2002 at 8:47am
I wonder if state officials have thought of the long term implications of their policies on "alternative fuel" vehicles. I have read some articles on this and it is my understanding that in the not too distant future, the auto makers will be greatly increasing production of hybrids. Are my fellow slugs aware that soon there will be hybrid sport utes? (Possibly next year). Remember that there is also currently no mileage requirement for HOV - just that it be a "hybrid."
With the rapid advance of technology, it may be difficult in a few years to differentiate between hybrid and conventional.
There are many issues here. My main concern is that the HOV lanes are first and foremost for HOV. At the very minimum, state officials should be careful about stating or implying that any hybrid will qualify as HOV-1 for all time. If the HOV lanes get glommed up, there will need to be changes to the law.
There is another issue that is troubling when one thinks about it. Should anyone be able to essentially buy their way into HOV? We need to preserve the flow of HOV for everyone.
Don't get me wrong - these vehicles are good overall and they currently are not a problem at all. I just wanted to air out some of my thoughts on the long term picture.
Bob
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Replies:
Posted By: Eric
Date Posted: 30 May 2002 at 10:45pm
Amen! Since these hybrids don't have 3x the mileage of a regular car, and I seriously doubt they have 1/3 the emissions, widespread use of hybrids in HOV is a net loser for the environment. And the added congestion will slow EVERYBODY down, thus causing even MORE pollution.
Well, it's not like most of the people making that decision are chock full of logic or common sense -- those are qualities that are generally a detriment to a political career...
- Eric.
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Posted By: bukie
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2002 at 1:35pm
I have check into buying one of the hybrid cars and the law that allows them to drive in the HOV lanes expires in 2004. What will happen after that I do not know.
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Posted By: gg
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2002 at 2:22pm
Hopefully, by that tim, those in power will be able to determine if clean cars deserve to use the HOV lanes. The only thing that I can see where they contribute to the well being of the community is that they pollute less (significantly?) than the typical car. But does this give those with hybrids and natural gas cars the privilege of using the HOV lanes and save substantial time, I think not.
gg
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Posted By: mol
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2002 at 7:31am
I agree with Eric. Also, because the idea behind constructing the HOV lanes was to get more cars off the road - first so people wouldn't have to take so brutally long in getting into work, and second - to help the environment, hybrids do not get more cars off the road, and there are serious questions about how the cars help the environment.
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Posted By: mdamba
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2002 at 9:48pm
Hybrids are less of a problem than getting violators out of the HOV lanes.Why don't you think like this, If more people get the hybrids And pick up two people than...WOW...just think of it. Around 50 mpg,cleaner air,save money and get a $7,000 tax credit too.By next year,I'll have one!
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2002 at 8:50am
I did some internet searching and as I understand it the current law applies through July 2004. So I am a little less concerned in that I assumed that Virginia was telling everyone that these cars would qualify for all time. If anyone knows more on the status of the law on this please post info.
To me, the best approach is to do this incrementally and let people know that if HOV gets glommed up, then the law will have to change perhaps allowing HOV 2 for hybrids. HOV should always have priority.
Bob
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2002 at 3:36pm
I just heard recently that "hybrid" SUVs will be out next year. I wonder if they will qualify? Will they get better gas mileage than an ordinary small-medium 4-door sedan?
The law says, by the way, that a "clean fuel" special license plate is required to use HOV lanes without the required number of people. Hybrids qualify for this license plate, but without it, they will be ticketed(I don't know if they actually are though).
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Posted By: Matrix
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2002 at 4:10pm
There are some volkswagons that get better gas mileage than the hybrid cars. Unfortunately, people who buy hybrid cars are buying for the convenience of driving solo on HOV. I almost bought the hybrid, but then the Toyota Matrix came out and I love it so much - I had to buy one.
I am concerned about HOV congestion as well. It is bad enough that we already have to deal with people getting on HOV through Springfield, but now more frequently with the "clean fuel" cars which are increasing in numbers by day.
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2002 at 4:48pm
Matrix,
I recently saw the "same" silver Honda Civic hybrid with temporary tags on three consecutive commutes. Strange thing was that there were three different people driving. I'm sure it wasn't the same car, but a testament to the increasing popularity of HOV-1.
I wonder if one of those high-MPG VW owners has tried applying for a CF license plate?
These cars are being sold way below their actual cost, people also get a huge tax break for owning one, and they don't have to follow the same laws as those of us without the tax-break or discounted car. I can't wait to see what happens with the hybrid SUVs, it's going to be ridiculous. Either the buyers will be complaining that they don't get to drive "HOV-1" or the rest of us will be remembering the good ole days of slugging. [:)]
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Posted By: tdar20
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2002 at 10:21am
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MPG and emissions are not related in the Hybrid case. The emissions are reduced by the battery application to the power train. I agree with one of the above writers in that we should look at all the HOV violators out there!! I am passed by countless violators each and every morning!
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2002 at 4:52pm
I'll ask again... will these qualify for Virginia's HOV-1? Who knows, these may be the most popular vehicles next year since they get double the MPG as current SUVs while still being normal/full sized.
Ford's "high volume mainstream alternative"
http://www.hybridford.com/index.asp
Toyota's contribution
http://www.toyota.com/about/news/product/2002/07/01-1-fuelcell.html
If you look at this PDF you'll see that even the Chevy Suburban/GMC Yukon is coing in 2003 as a "clean fuel" vehicle.
http://www.afdc.doe.gov/pdfs/my2003_afvs.pdf
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2002 at 4:54pm
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I think that these new cars are great. My problem is the excemption from the rules they might recieve.
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Posted By: Arbo
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2002 at 8:53pm
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I agree with trying to promote the lower emission/alt fuel vehicles. However, they (along with off-duty enmergency personnel) should be made to follow the HOV restrictions just like us regular people.
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Posted By: tlschau
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2002 at 11:21am
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In my opinion I really don't see Hybrids as a threat to carpooling or the HOV lanes. I have seen a few of them on the road, but no enough to affect traffic. As others have mentioned, I think that HOV violators pose a greater threat to the HOV traffic and that is something that needs addressed first. However, I also agree that if in the future HOV traffic gets worse then maybe HOV-2 or something may be in order for Hybrids.
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2002 at 1:02pm
Cameras would be the most effective enforcment of HOV. Not perfect, but.... a good source of revenue [B)]
I'd guess that as many as 10% of the cars in the HOV lanes are hybrids now. The problem I'm pointing out is in the near future, hybrids might be a very large percentage of the new cars on the road and all of them will want to use "hov-1"
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Posted By: swichowski
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2002 at 1:43pm
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I like the thought of them being a HOV2 if it gets to crowded. What I dont like is all the police/fire/FBI/undercover cars useing HOV Every day commuting. Stop and get a slug or get in the normal lanes. UNLESS it is an emergency. I see the same cars every day driving into DC useing HOV this is not an emergency.
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2002 at 2:23pm
Below is some information I got off the internet on hybrids (don't know if it is all accurate). Depending on what the Virginia legislature does in terms of extending beyond 2004, I still think the potential is there for us to be swamped with hybrids of all kinds. It will be difficult to not renew the hybrid HOV rule once 10,000 people are using it.
Also, I am troubled by the fact that one can buy his way into the HOV. Although there is an environmental benefit relative to commuting by yourself in another type of car -- not relative to carpooling, this is similar to the so-called HOT lanes (high occupancy toll - to allow singles into the HOV) that have been kicked around, which I am totally against.
Incidentally, I heard from a driver that when your battery dies, it costs you $2,000 to replace. True?
Bob
excerpts from the website I found (dated 2002):
J.D. Power and Associates, a well-known international marketing firm,
estimates that 40,000 Toyota and Honda hybrid cars will be sold in this
country this year. By 2007, that number should climb to 500,000...
....Furthermore, there should be more than 20 kinds of hybrid minivans,
SUVs and sedans by companies like Ford, General Motors, Chrysler and
Dodge....
... This law (Virginia Code Section 33.1-46.2) is in effect
until July 1, 2004, but the legislature can extend it...
http://www.elizabethriver.org/news%20articles/hybrid_cars_.htm
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Posted By: Matrix
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2002 at 3:10pm
Bob,
Actually, I read an article that stated the engines were $3000 to replace in the Toyota Prius. I will try to remember where I saw it and let you know...
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Posted By: Barry
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2002 at 3:17pm
According to a recent article in the Fredericksburg paper the allowance for traveling solo in the HOV lanes is based on the emissions the vehicle produces – not that it uses hybrid technology. This is indicated by the “Clean Fuel” (CF) tag. If you convert your gasoline powered car to run on compressed natural gas (CNG) I understand that it could be plated CF. In fact I’ve seen a handful of these vehicles in the HOV lanes over the years.
The logic that a CF car can travel with one occupant is based on the idea that it’s putting out a fraction of the emissions (with the Civic Hybrid it’s around 30%) that a regular car does. So, three CF cars put out approximately what one regular car. I admit that doesn’t help congestion in the HOV lanes.
Whether the new SUV Hybrids will be able to meet the CF restrictions is unknown. I’ve read the desire of SUV hybrids is to produce a vehicle that drives like it has a 6 cylinder engine but with a 4 cylinder under the hood.
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Posted By: curtisdt
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2002 at 4:32pm
The waiver will be reviewed again in 2004.
Don
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2002 at 11:35pm
I certainly hope the waiver isn't continued past July 2004. The number of "CF" cars in the HOV lanes is growing fast, and by then will be growing much faster than now. My guess is that much more than 25% of the cars in the "HOV" lanes will be "CF" by July of '04.
I wonder how much "stink" these "HOV-1" drivers will make if their exemption from the law is rescinded?
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Posted By: viper
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2002 at 4:09pm
Whether you look at it as an environmental issue or as a congestion issue, the result is the same -- HOV 3 is three times better than HOV 1 for the situation as a whole.
The rule NEEDS to change soon. Perhaps an interim measure of HOV 2 for the CF vehicles would make the medicine easier to swallow before they ultimately go to HOV 3 like everyone else.
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Posted By: Matrix
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2002 at 4:40pm
Posted By: wdossel
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2002 at 1:06pm
My take is that HOV was instituted for congestion, not environmental purposes. The benefits accrued to the environment by the numbers of CF vehicles is far outbalanced by the benefits accruing to the far wider populace on the road in the form of reduction in traffic congestion. Perhaps my opinion is colored when I see tags that proudly proclaim the owners self-centeredness and arrogance on these same vehicles ("HOV4ME", "HOV1", etc.), but I put them in the same category as HOV bandits when I see one in the lanes during HOV hours with just the driver. I hope (and will write Richmond when the time comes) urging that the exemption not be renewed.
- Will
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2003 at 3:06pm
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Hybrids are a stop-gap solution until alternate fuel sources become economically feasible, not a long-term solution. Hybrids get better gas milage, but not that much better. Many non-hybrid cars get MPGs in the 30s and qualify for ULEV status, and I'm sure technology will soon allow tradition ULEV gas cars to acheive MPGs in the 40s and 50s. Then what will make the hybrids so special? I am also concerned about the "new and improved, high MPG" VW diesels that are being marketed as a MPG solution. Will they get HOV exemptions? Hybrid SUVs are a contradiction if I've ever seen one!
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2003 at 9:03pm
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I see a hybrid(or more) with temporary tags almost every trip lately. Technically, they are breaking the law, but that's not the point. Growing menace they are. :D
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Posted By: tdar20
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2003 at 7:51am
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It is not the MPG the car gets for the Clean Fuel tag it is the emissions. The Hybrid technology greatly reduces the emissions of the vehicle and thus qualifies for the HOV exemption.
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Posted By: Arbo
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2003 at 9:13am
tdar. Let's try to look at the math of it though.
I live 50 miles from work. If I drive a hybrid that gets 50mpg, then I would use 1 gallon of gas (per person) and produce the emmisions of that 1 gallon (again, per person). If I drive in the HOV-3 (legally, with two other people in the car) using a car that gets 25mpg, then I would use 2 gallons, but for three people. Therefore, I would be using 2/3 gallon per person and producing the emmissions of 2/3 gallon per person. In this case, the we produces less emmissions per person than the hybrid AND have less traffic congestion AND get to work faster.
the hybrids are nice, but they will only make congestion MUCH worse. Personnally, I'd like to see the hybrids exception (and all of the other single person exceptions) done away with. The hybrids MAY alleviate the emmissions problem (and many people debate that), but will do nothing for the congestion problems.
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2003 at 1:11pm
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It might even someday be called HHOV and all none Hybrids might get sent back to the regular lanes in a few years.
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Posted By: tdar20
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2003 at 7:32am
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Arbo: Glad you paid attention in math class. That was not my point. The hybrid gets is clearance for its emissions not the mpg. The math supports your point but it was not the question that was asked.
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Posted By: minamu
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2003 at 4:05am
Surrender to the hybrids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Virginia has already passed the law extending the exemption to 2006, but there is some chance that the Federal govt. may step in and nullify the law, arguing that the exemption is contrary to the purpose of the HOV lanes. However, it appears that Virginia might still be able to then legally allow hybrids to travel HOV-2 in the HOV-3 lanes, which would still be a bonus.
Personally, given that we live in an area with bad air quality and so many SUVs constantly making it worse, I think any and all incentives to improve air quality here should be smiled upon. The more people who get into hybrid cars, the better.
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Posted By: 3ForHOV
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2003 at 9:00am
quote:
Originally posted by minamu
[br]Surrender to the hybrids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Virginia has already passed the law extending the exemption to 2006, but there is some chance that the Federal govt. may step in and nullify the law, arguing that the exemption is contrary to the purpose of the HOV lanes. However, it appears that Virginia might still be able to then legally allow hybrids to travel HOV-2 in the HOV-3 lanes, which would still be a bonus.
Personally, given that we live in an area with bad air quality and so many SUVs constantly making it worse, I think any and all incentives to improve air quality here should be smiled upon. The more people who get into hybrid cars, the better.
The NoVA and surrounding areas would be a better place if we all drove Hybrids AND still picked up slugs.
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Posted By: wdossel
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2003 at 10:32am
quote:
Originally posted by 3ForHOV
[br]quote:
Originally posted by minamu
[br]Surrender to the hybrids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Virginia has already passed the law extending the exemption to 2006, but there is some chance that the Federal govt. may step in and nullify the law, arguing that the exemption is contrary to the purpose of the HOV lanes. However, it appears that Virginia might still be able to then legally allow hybrids to travel HOV-2 in the HOV-3 lanes, which would still be a bonus.
Personally, given that we live in an area with bad air quality and so many SUVs constantly making it worse, I think any and all incentives to improve air quality here should be smiled upon. The more people who get into hybrid cars, the better.
The NoVA and surrounding areas would be a better place if we all drove Hybrids AND still picked up slugs.
... and therein lies my issue w/hybrids. I don't mind them, per se (other than questions about disposal of the battery packs at the end of their useful life), rather I would prefer that *all* vehicles using the HOV at the designated times carry the requisite number of people, be it HOV2 or 3.
- Will
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2003 at 12:28am
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They better figure out something soon, the full size SUV hybrids are coming one of these days. I've seen pictures, and even linked to a few of them earlier in this thread I believe.
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2003 at 10:34am
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My information is that the Ford Excape hybrid will be available next summer or fall (2004). We must contact our representatives in state government so that these are not allowed. I am totally against this.
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2003 at 3:53pm
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How can they not allow them based on what they are doing now. The hybrids today don't meet the requirments for the "clean fuel" exemption, yet Virginia is giving them it anyway. Read the section of law regarding requirments for the "clean fuel" plates and it's clear the gasoline powered vehicles can not be included as written..
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2003 at 11:14am
MDC,
You may have not completed your research. The HOV incentive is formulated in Federal Law (See Title 40 Code Part 88 88.313-93). The three vehicles (Honda Civic, Insight, and Toyota Prius) are the only three hybrids which have earned the emmisions certification (thus far) which qualify them for Clean Fuel Vehicle incentives. The incentives may vary from state to state, but the HOV incentive is in the code. You will notice a provision that allows Governers to petition the Administrator for an exemption to this, if it is determined that the ILEVs (Inherently Low-Emmision Vehicles) are the main source of congestion.
New hybrids would must be approved before receiving this (and other) incentives.
Here are a couple of links for your convenience. I'm not sure they will work directly from here, but they will get you close.
http://www.ccities.doe.gov/vbg/progs/search_type.cgi?8
http://www.knownet.hhs.gov/log/fleetDR/documents/part88.pdf
I have expressed my opinion on this in another thread, so I'll not repeat it here. I will, however underline an earlier notion... Its the emmisions, not the fuel economy that qualify the vehicle. The fuel economy is an added bonus.
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2003 at 11:47am
quote:
Originally posted by Arbo
[br]tdar. Let's try to look at the math of it though.
I live 50 miles from work. If I drive a hybrid that gets 50mpg, then I would use 1 gallon of gas (per person) and produce the emmisions of that 1 gallon (again, per person). If I drive in the HOV-3 (legally, with two other people in the car) using a car that gets 25mpg, then I would use 2 gallons, but for three people. Therefore, I would be using 2/3 gallon per person and producing the emmissions of 2/3 gallon per person. In this case, the we produces less emmissions per person than the hybrid AND have less traffic congestion AND get to work faster.
the hybrids are nice, but they will only make congestion MUCH worse. Personnally, I'd like to see the hybrids exception (and all of the other single person exceptions) done away with. The hybrids MAY alleviate the emmissions problem (and many people debate that), but will do nothing for the congestion problems.
Your math may be a little too presumptious. The Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle are 90% more efficient at reducing emissions, not 33.33%
Also, it would take about 4 gallons to drive my SUV for your 50 miles, regardless of the number of passengers, (which is one of the reasons that I slug.)
Lastly, I have not noticed any slow-downs on HOV that are not related to accidents or weather, so we would not get to work any quicker.
So, your conclusion would be invalid on all three accounts until such time that hybrids or other Clean Fuel vehicles become a burden to the HOV lanes.
I do agree that the benefits of Clean Fuel vehicles are multiplied (possibly exponentially, when you consider emmisions) by additional passengers on a per-person ratio. However, there are currently no incentives to do so. Maybe an ammendment to the tax relief in the new thread that I began may be a place to start. A small incentive may be found, but better than none.
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2003 at 9:21pm
mroyal,
I've read the statute word for word, and it specifically states that cars running gasoline do not qualify for the clean fuel exemption. Virginia might have changed the enforcement of that, but they have not changed the wording regarding gasoline powered vehicles. Here's an article from 2000 about a guy with his Honda Insight getting HOV violations because his car didn't qualify for the exemption.
http://www.jrnl.net/news/00/Aug/jrn17100800.html
But that's not my point. It's that 9 out of 10, if not 99 of 100 new cars in the "HOV" lanes with temporary tags are hybrids. Where does that lead us in the near term?
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 20 Jun 2003 at 9:27am
quote:
Originally posted by MDC
[br]mroyal,
I've read the statute word for word, and it specifically states that cars running gasoline do not qualify for the clean fuel exemption. Virginia might have changed the enforcement of that, but they have not changed the wording regarding gasoline powered vehicles. Here's an article from 2000 about a guy with his Honda Insight getting HOV violations because his car didn't qualify for the exemption.
http://www.jrnl.net/news/00/Aug/jrn17100800.html
But that's not my point. It's that 9 out of 10, if not 99 of 100 new cars in the "HOV" lanes with temporary tags are hybrids. Where does that lead us in the near term?
WRT your interpretation of the law, I (and apparently those who enforce it) disagree. As I hinted, a better way to understand it is to look at the federal code.
The cited article apparently was published in August 2000 and has no current relevance. Hybrids are now being issued Clean Fuel tags in Virginia if they are certified by the Federal EPA as ILEVs. In Virginia, vehicles with Clean Fuel tags are allowed to use HOV, at least until 2006. That's just the facts.
But, looking at your main point, I am still confused. Is it that you anticipate that there will be a lot more hybrids on HOV in the near future (thus the temporary tags?) If so, then I agree. The HOV incentive is a stong incentive, by itself. It has also influenced people to purchase and ride motorcycles. If your point is that people who commute and are in the process of purchasing new vehicles are choosing more economical and emmision efficient vehicles, then I also agree. Even with the HOV incentive aside, the Honda Civic Hybrid fits a very nice niche in my family and we are extremely pleased with it.
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 20 Jun 2003 at 8:43pm
The point is the name of this thread "...threat to carpooling". It won't be too long before there are more hybrids than cars with 3 people inside.
Virginia's law specifically excludes gasoline powered vehicles. Just because they are now allowing hybrids to get "CF" plates, doesn't change that. Virginia has not updated the language of their law as of a couple of months ago.
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2003 at 3:55pm
quote:
Originally posted by MDC
[br]The point is the name of this thread "...threat to carpooling". It won't be too long before there are more hybrids than cars with 3 people inside.
Virginia's law specifically excludes gasoline powered vehicles. Just because they are now allowing hybrids to get "CF" plates, doesn't change that. Virginia has not updated the language of their law as of a couple of months ago.
Ok, the best we can get is "agree to disagree." I don't think there is an immediate threat that hybrids will outnumber HOV 3+ and I don't agree with your interpretation of the law.
Have a good day.
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2003 at 7:22pm
mroyal,
How many hybrids were there a year ago? There are probably 4-5 times as many now.
Do you really think it's a GOOD thing that drivers of "hybrid" vehicles are permitted to drive in the HOV Lanes without passengers, or is it just convenient for them? Don't you think that reducing the number of cars on the road is the purpose of HOV? HOV exceptions only lead to more people not car-pooling.
From the code of Virginia, read the "includes" part. Somehow it doesn't mention engines burning gasoline. I understand that you could interpret it to include "hybrid" vehicles, but the article I linked to before obviously showed that Virginia did not include them in 2000.
===========================
As used in this section, "clean special fuel" means any product or energy source used to propel a highway vehicle, the use of which, compared to conventional gasoline or reformulated gasoline, results in lower emissions of oxides of nitrogen, volatile organic compounds, carbon monoxide or particulates or any combination thereof. The term includes compressed natural gas, liquefied natural gas, liquefied petroleum gas, hydrogen, hythane (a combination of compressed natural gas and hydrogen), and electricity.
=====================
People also keep saying that "it's not about MPG, but emissions". Both of my previous cars usually got 10%, or less of the "allowable" emissions rates for all tests, and neither were "hybrids"
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Posted By: asamson
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2003 at 4:03pm
About VW and CF and MPG: I drive VW Diesel(s) - and pick up slugs no matter what. But, how do I find out if I qualify for CF tags, or any incentives? Thanks,
ars
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2003 at 6:10pm
asamson,
You get better gas mileage, and that's it. How's the vehicle working for you?
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Posted By: Arbo
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2003 at 12:09am
Just saw this on MSNBC.com Local News (attributed to News4).
==================
Virginia To Get Tough On HOV Violators
ARLINGTON, Va., 6:24 p.m. EDT July 14, 2003 - HOV violators, you know who you are. So do the police. And pretty soon, they're about to get tough.
Virginia State Police are planning what they call a "No Excuses" crackdown on violators of high-occupancy vehicle lanes in northern Virginia, along interstates 95, 395 and 66, as well as the Dulles Toll Road.
For example, drivers will not be able to use the excuse that they got into the lane when the HOV rules didn't apply. Police say anyone caught alone in the HOV lane during the posted times will be ticketed.
The enforcement begins on Wednesday morning.
Authorities claim the number of violators has nearly doubled in the last four years. They said that on weekdays between 6 a.m. and 6:30 a.m., more than two-thirds of the drivers in the I-95 car pool lanes have no business being there.
The Virginia Department of Transportation said that in the morning rush, more than a third of the HOV drivers on I-95 and on I-66 inside the Beltway are there illegally. About a quarter of the drivers on I-395 and the toll road are violators.
======================
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Posted By: mirangus
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2003 at 6:43am
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This is great news. I just posted a link for the article in the Post. It's on a separate thread if anyone is interested.
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Posted By: vabigblue
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2003 at 1:01pm
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Personally I don't see the advantage of these hybrids driving in HOV lanes. As one person indicated, HOV is made for multiple persons driving in vehicles. Actually it makes me quite irate to see hybrids' drivers seemingly making arragont stares at vehicles with 3 or more riders. Maybe it's me, but the state needs to ban them from HOV lanes, the sooner the better. Thank you[?]
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2003 at 6:04pm
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Saw a new personalized CF plate on a hybrid this morning... "MY HOV" For some reason her High Occupancy Vehicle only had the driver...
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Posted By: Monbe
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2003 at 8:08am
It's not just you. I agree 100%. Hybrid drivers who are driving alone are NOT helping get more cars off the road. They are part of the problem.
quote:
Originally posted by vabigblue
[br]Personally I don't see the advantage of these hybrids driving in HOV lanes. As one person indicated, HOV is made for multiple persons driving in vehicles. Actually it makes me quite irate to see hybrids' drivers seemingly making arragont stares at vehicles with 3 or more riders. Maybe it's me, but the state needs to ban them from HOV lanes, the sooner the better. Thank you[?]
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Posted By: Hybrid1
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2003 at 12:22pm
There is no law breaking going on here. I also don't see Hybrids as a threat to HOV travel time. I see sooo many violators every day, it makes me sick. But lately the threat to HOV travel time has been the Law. The barricades they are putting up (and I'm not sure if this is a new standard or just a week long exercise) are a double edged sword. Yes they are punishing violators and letting them know that doing what they are doing is illegal and they will pay the price, but at the same time, the delays we are receiving from the blockades is quite substantial.
But back to the point, because I can get in upwards of 54 MPG and have ultra low emmissions, and because I am doing my part to conserve the environment (which yes I will admit saves me a huge amount of time), I am allowed to use the lanes. Less fuel consumed, greater distance achieved, less natural resources wasted, less ozone pollution why not reward someone? Too many people take for granted our planet and its resources. Slugs and hybrid drivers are a small minority of people in the world who do care (even though we get a major benefit out of it).
On yet another note, have you all heard of the new commuter tax they are talking about? What is this about? It doesn't sound good.
Thanks for your time,
Chris
"Can't we all just get along..."
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Posted By: 3ForHOV
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2003 at 12:28pm
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Why don't you do even more for the environment by picking up slugs?
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Posted By: Hybrid1
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2003 at 2:24pm
I did that for a while too. Thanks. Delays to travel time do to long lines in pickup and dropoff (especially Pentagon) helped to sway my decision to purchase a hybrid. I saved at least 20-30 minutes of my time in the morning at 30-45 minutes in the evening. Over time that adds up to time I can spend with my family or doing other more important things then driving. I enjoy a relaxing ride on the way home, listening to whatever music I feel appropriate to wind down with, and under the Slug Etiquette, my music might offend potential riders. I think the system is wonderful, I just prefer to lead a less stressful life with less time on the road and more alone time to think and whatnot. I don't think we should be frowned upon, and found that it made me somewhat angry.
Chris
"In DC, time is money, unfortunately"
(Oh and on that note, aren't I doing more for my environment by running my automobile an hour less each day?)
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Posted By: 3ForHOV
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2003 at 2:34pm
quote:
Originally posted by Hybrid1
[br]I did that for a while too. Thanks. Delays to travel time do to long lines in pickup and dropoff (especially Pentagon) helped to sway my decision to purchase a hybrid. I saved at least 20-30 minutes of my time in the morning at 30-45 minutes in the evening. Over time that adds up to time I can spend with my family or doing other more important things then driving. I enjoy a relaxing ride on the way home, listening to whatever music I feel appropriate to wind down with, and under the Slug Etiquette, my music might offend potential riders. I think the system is wonderful, I just prefer to lead a less stressful life with less time on the road and more alone time to think and whatnot. I don't think we should be frowned upon, and found that it made me somewhat angry.
Chris
"In DC, time is money, unfortunately"
(Oh and on that note, aren't I doing more for my environment by running my automobile an hour less each day?)
This board is for people who slug and pick up slugs. On your final note...no, you are not doing the environment any justice by driving an hour less each day -- take the bus or metro if you want to benefit the environment! Your car still uses gasoline, burns oil, uses rubber so your argument is weak. Have a nice year in your hybrid until 2004.
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2003 at 3:48pm
[br][quote[br]
This board is for people who slug and pick up slugs. On your final note...no, you are not doing the environment any justice by driving an hour less each day -- take the bus or metro if you want to benefit the environment! Your car still uses gasoline, burns oil, uses rubber so your argument is weak. Have a nice year in your hybrid until 2004.
I disagree, This board is for discussion about slugging and hybrids have been a big part of the discussion. Opinions of non-sluggers should be welcomed, not discouraged. btw, make that 2006.
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
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Posted By: 3ForHOV
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2003 at 3:52pm
quote:
Originally posted by mroyal
[br]
[br][quote[br]
This board is for people who slug and pick up slugs. On your final note...no, you are not doing the environment any justice by driving an hour less each day -- take the bus or metro if you want to benefit the environment! Your car still uses gasoline, burns oil, uses rubber so your argument is weak. Have a nice year in your hybrid until 2004.
I disagree, This board is for discussion about slugging and hybrids have been a big part of the discussion. Opinions of non-sluggers should be welcomed, not discouraged. btw, make that 2006.
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
You're the one with the wife who drives a hybrid, right?
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2003 at 8:02pm
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hybrids use less gas in stop and go traffic, thus their higher MPG ratings in the city, and lower on the highway.
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Posted By: elama
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2003 at 12:03pm
Hybrid 1 - We all want a less stressful ride home. We're not slugging and carpooling with others because we want more stress. If cars were not so expensive, we would see alot more hybrids joining the ranks. We would all love to jump in our cars, make no stops, and sail right onto the highway. Sluggers make those sacrifices. Hybrid drivers do not. Anyway, don't take it so personally. We are venting how we feel. Reports lately have indicated more and more hybrids are being sold. Simple math dictates that at some point, if this trend keeps up, the HOV lanes will become clogged. The issue is not only one of the environment, but unclogging the roads. The more hybrids sold, the more single drivers on the road - and the more congested those roads become. We cannot look at the program on how it effects INDIVIDUALS personally, but how it effects the MASSES. I have yet to hear a convincing argument for allowing hybrids on the HOV lanes.
(I believe the commuter tax you mentioned has to do with DC either proposing or thinking about proposing a tax on those who live outside DC and travel into the District to work.)
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Posted By: Rus
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2003 at 12:49pm
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I agree Elama. To expand a bit on your thought... a federal highway report (can't remember whether it was Federal or state) said that a study was done and showed that when exceptions were made for vehicles on a wider scale (such as hybrids), eventually, DUH...the lanes became as clogged as the regular lanes, and DUH...more cars than ever were on the road. If all the lanes get congested, most people will have lost the incentive to car pool and we will have an even more nightmarish commute than we have now. I think the biggest problem is the people who make these hairbrained decisions to bein with. (It must be the same people who have been grossly mismanaging the state budget over the years.)
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Posted By: Hybrid1
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2003 at 1:35pm
To try to find justification for your "hybrid's congesting the HOV" arguments, I decided to count hb's ont he way home last night. If I didn't get passed by one, which I might have, I counted 4. Thats inclusive. Yes it varies daily, I'm sure you could see as many as 10 or more on a commute. But look at how many aren't? Also, look at the license plates. I just got my Civic a month ago and my tag # is in the 7000 series, if they are counting them up as I think they are, thats what, 7000 in Virginia out of how many commuters that go into DC each day? 100,000's? I think that your argument is also weak in respect to our clogging lanes. I really don't think we the threat you are saying we are. Violators, gawkers at accidents and flashing lights, and the merging of All traffic on 95 southbound at one point create more delays then we do. And I ask this, are the lanes really all that clogged? How many cars on the road do you feel is a comfortable number for HOV? Travel is still at least 10x faster then regular driving.
I don't have the "perfect argument" no, and its just my opinion. Sorry if I offended anyone. And in 2006, if they don't revote the system, then yes, I'll be picking up slugs, and I'll have no qualms with that.
Chris
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2003 at 4:30pm
quote:
Originally posted by 3ForHOV
[br]quote:
Originally posted by mroyal
[br]
[br][quote[br]
This board is for people who slug and pick up slugs. On your final note...no, you are not doing the environment any justice by driving an hour less each day -- take the bus or metro if you want to benefit the environment! Your car still uses gasoline, burns oil, uses rubber so your argument is weak. Have a nice year in your hybrid until 2004.
I disagree, This board is for discussion about slugging and hybrids have been a big part of the discussion. Opinions of non-sluggers should be welcomed, not discouraged. btw, make that 2006.
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
You're the one with the wife who drives a hybrid, right?
I am, indeed. I occasionally ride with her, but our hours are different and slugging/busing provides me with more options.
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
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Posted By: gatewayslug
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2003 at 12:27pm
I have been reading the message board for some time now, and it still amazes me that some seem to put so much credence into the "scientific" survey method of counting something, be it violators or hybrids, while driving. Someone counts on their drive in and since they only saw three or four there must not really be a problem.
For the most part, the traffic on the HOV lanes moves along at about the same speed. This means that you will only see the half dozen or so vehicles in front and behind you plus the occasional passing or being passed auto. You could have a 100 violators, hybrids, whatever, six cars ahead of or behind you and you would never count them. Only by standing at a fixed point and counting as they pass do you get the real picture at that point and at that time.
I reluctantly agree that sometimes the govt must offer incentives to a few to benefit the whole. In the past there have been tax credits for those insulating their homes to help save the nation's energy. Now it is tax credits and convenience (HOV lanes) to reduce fuel consumption and reduce pollution. Hybrids are a start but they don't reduce congestion except that the single driver vehicle is moving and not sitting in the main lanes idling away their fuel. How about a compromise and graduate to HOV 2 for hybrids now, and then as they become more common raise it to HOV 3?
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Posted By: Hybrid1
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2003 at 1:56pm
This almost makes me want to sit on the side of the road and count cars at a fixed point. My hypothesis is that the results would be similarly output. Small percentage of HB's and large percentage of carpoolers. The lanes still run smoothly, I still don't see what the big deal is. If I jumped on the HOV and stopped moving (other then because of a road block or accident) I would understand your arguments. That just isn't so, though.
Chris
(Perhaps things will change in the future, we shall see though, eh?)
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Posted By: 3ForHOV
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2003 at 2:17pm
quote:
Originally posted by Hybrid1
[br]This almost makes me want to sit on the side of the road and count cars at a fixed point. My hypothesis is that the results would be similarly output. Small percentage of HB's and large percentage of carpoolers. The lanes still run smoothly, I still don't see what the big deal is. If I jumped on the HOV and stopped moving (other then because of a road block or accident) I would understand your arguments. That just isn't so, though.
Chris
(Perhaps things will change in the future, we shall see though, eh?)
I think you need to go back and re-read elama's and gatewayslug's points...
If everyone eventually traded in their cars for hybrids and didn't pick up slugs, there would be no reason to carpool. The HOV lanes would become like I-95. You could then call them [}:)]HYBRID ONLY VEHICLES[}:)] lanes.
I eventually plan on buying a hybrid and will continue to use the HOV lanes with at least 3 in my vehicle.
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Posted By: vabigblue
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2003 at 8:21am
quote:
Originally posted by MDC
[br]Saw a new personalized CF plate on a hybrid this morning... "MY HOV" For some reason her High Occupancy Vehicle only had the driver...
Therein lies my arguement. If this lady feels like this, then you can see they plan to take over. They don't care about slugs or slugging. I for one would hope the State of Va. would re-consider the option of letting them remain in HOV lanes. Again, what is the advantage? This big disadvantage is going to be "congestion". I just hope I'm retired by the time its too congested. It may be sooner than we think.
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Posted By: vabigblue
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2003 at 8:30am
quote:
Originally posted by Hybrid1
[br]To try to find justification for your "hybrid's congesting the HOV" arguments, I decided to count hb's ont he way home last night. If I didn't get passed by one, which I might have, I counted 4. Thats inclusive. Yes it varies daily, I'm sure you could see as many as 10 or more on a commute. But look at how many aren't? Also, look at the license plates. I just got my Civic a month ago and my tag # is in the 7000 series, if they are counting them up as I think they are, thats what, 7000 in Virginia out of how many commuters that go into DC each day? 100,000's? I think that your argument is also weak in respect to our clogging lanes. I really don't think we the threat you are saying we are. Violators, gawkers at accidents and flashing lights, and the merging of All traffic on 95 southbound at one point create more delays then we do. And I ask this, are the lanes really all that clogged? How many cars on the road do you feel is a comfortable number for HOV? Travel is still at least 10x faster then regular driving.
I don't have the "perfect argument" no, and its just my opinion. Sorry if I offended anyone. And in 2006, if they don't revote the system, then yes, I'll be picking up slugs, and I'll have no qualms with that.
Chris
pick'em up now![;)]
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2003 at 12:23pm
quote:
Originally posted by 3ForHOV
[br]I eventually plan on buying a hybrid and will continue to use the HOV lanes with at least 3 in my vehicle.
Yep, for about three weeks. Then you will slap yourself in the head and say "Why the heck am I doing this?"
It's really not logical to increase your commute time when you don't need to.
Besides, if you pick up slugs when you don't need to, are you not creating a void for those drivers who do need them?
If you really feel so inclined, why don't you buy a van or a bus and give lots of riders a free commute and eliminate lots more vehicles from the road.
Makes a lot more sense to donate blood on a regular basis if you want to contribute to the community.
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2003 at 12:39pm
quote:
Originally posted by MDC
[br]mroyal,
How many hybrids were there a year ago? There are probably 4-5 times as many now.
Do you really think it's a GOOD thing that drivers of "hybrid" vehicles are permitted to drive in the HOV Lanes without passengers, or is it just convenient for them? Don't you think that reducing the number of cars on the road is the purpose of HOV? HOV exceptions only lead to more people not car-pooling.
From the code of Virginia, read the "includes" part. Somehow it doesn't mention engines burning gasoline. I understand that you could interpret it to include "hybrid" vehicles, but the article I linked to before obviously showed that Virginia did not include them in 2000.
===========================
As used in this section, "clean special fuel" means any product or energy source used to propel a highway vehicle, the use of which, compared to conventional gasoline or reformulated gasoline, results in lower emissions of oxides of nitrogen, volatile organic compounds, carbon monoxide or particulates or any combination thereof. The term includes compressed natural gas, liquefied natural gas, liquefied petroleum gas, hydrogen, hythane (a combination of compressed natural gas and hydrogen), and electricity.
=====================
People also keep saying that "it's not about MPG, but emissions". Both of my previous cars usually got 10%, or less of the "allowable" emissions rates for all tests, and neither were "hybrids"
Sorry,
I must have missed this message directed to me. Since I have agreed to disagree with you, I give up on trying to convince you that I am right. If you wish to continue trying to convince me that you are right, please go right ahead with the caution that I may completely ignore your message and probably won't reply. My best advice is to re-read the entire thread, because our debate became circular with no new points being raised. We just flat-out disagree. Nothing wrong with that.
That said, I look forward to your contributions on other subjects.
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
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Posted By: 3ForHOV
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2003 at 1:23pm
quote:
Originally posted by mroyal
[br]quote:
Originally posted by 3ForHOV
[br]I eventually plan on buying a hybrid and will continue to use the HOV lanes with at least 3 in my vehicle.
Yep, for about three weeks. Then you will slap yourself in the head and say "Why the heck am I doing this?"
It's really not logical to increase your commute time when you don't need to.
Besides, if you pick up slugs when you don't need to, are you not creating a void for those drivers who do need them?
If you really feel so inclined, why don't you buy a van or a bus and give lots of riders a free commute and eliminate lots more vehicles from the road.
Makes a lot more sense to donate blood on a regular basis if you want to contribute to the community.
The three in my car everyday are my spouse, my child, and me, and occasionally a stepchild so I'm not taking slugs away from other drivers. Cheers!
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 23 Jul 2003 at 8:30am
quote:
Originally posted by 3ForHOV
[br]The three in my car everyday are my spouse, my child, and me, and occasionally a stepchild so I'm not taking slugs away from other drivers. Cheers!
I see. So, your situation has nothing at all to do with slugs. I am assuming then that your main point is that there should be limited or no exemptions to "3ForHOV."
To an extent, I agree with you. My own personal peeve is "law enforcement", which is abused by everyone who can get away with a blue light on the dash. Case in point is the Secret Service, and especially those government officials who have personal drivers. In my naive years, I thought it was remarkable how many cops responded to accidents on the HOV that caused backups. Then I noticed that all of these blue lights running down the breakdown lane were black Crown Victorias. They are just too important to wait in line like regular citizens.
Anyway, my point all along is that it is legal for hybrids to be in HOV with a single occupant. I think its a good exemption until HOV begins to slow-down. HOV slow-down is inevitable. We have seen it in the past and we will see it again in the future. When that happens, we will need to find ways to improve it.
And, as long as it is legal and not slowing down HOV, it is silly to complain about it or try and make hybrid owners feel guilty. We all do whatever we can to make our commute easier.
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
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Posted By: 3ForHOV
Date Posted: 23 Jul 2003 at 9:02am
quote:
Originally posted by mroyal
[br]quote:
Originally posted by 3ForHOV
[br]The three in my car everyday are my spouse, my child, and me, and occasionally a stepchild so I'm not taking slugs away from other drivers. Cheers!
I see. So, your situation has nothing at all to do with slugs. I am assuming then that your main point is that there should be limited or no exemptions to "3ForHOV."
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
No, you don't see and don't assume (incorrectly, I might add) on my behalf. One of us slugs or picks up slugs when one of us has to stay home with a sick child or when schedules don't match up.
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 23 Jul 2003 at 9:51am
quote:
Originally posted by 3ForHOV
[br]quote:
Originally posted by mroyal
[br]quote:
Originally posted by 3ForHOV
[br]The three in my car everyday are my spouse, my child, and me, and occasionally a stepchild so I'm not taking slugs away from other drivers. Cheers!
I see. So, your situation has nothing at all to do with slugs. I am assuming then that your main point is that there should be limited or no exemptions to "3ForHOV."
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
No, you don't see and don't assume (incorrectly, I might add) on my behalf. One of us slugs or picks up slugs when one of us has to stay home with a sick child or when schedules don't match up.
... and if you had a hybrid and one of you has to stay home or your schedules don't match?
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
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Posted By: 3ForHOV
Date Posted: 23 Jul 2003 at 10:49am
MROYAL: [?]IF[?] I decide to buy a hybrid...I would DEFINITELY still pick up slugs!
Besides, if I did buy a hybrid and my child was sick, the hybrid would be at home with my spouse since that would be the primary family vehicle with the car seat already in it.
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 23 Jul 2003 at 11:08am
quote:
Originally posted by 3ForHOV
[br]MROYAL: [?]IF[?] I decide to buy a hybrid...I would DEFINITELY still pick up slugs!
Then I refer you back to my previous message.
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
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Posted By: Hybrid1
Date Posted: 23 Jul 2003 at 2:26pm
How can you go on and on about picking up slugs if you don't pick up any unless someone is sick? Of course you could argue that you and your wife both don't have to drive thus cutting down on traffic, but you're not really "Slugging" you're just meeting the criteria for the HOV.
Chris
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Posted By: 3ForHOV
Date Posted: 23 Jul 2003 at 2:57pm
We've slugged in to work every day so far this week since our child is with the grandparents. And yes, when we aren't slugging, we are already meeting the HOV-3 criteria.
Slugging and picking up slugs is a very convenient system. There are others out there doing the same thing as I am - somedays slugs will choose to drive, other days drivers will choose to slug. Either way, we are meeting the HOV criteria and contribute to the success of the slugging system. Just like your hybrid is a convenience to you, slugging is a convenience to others. 'Nuf said.
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Posted By: sunny
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2003 at 1:27pm
quote:
Originally posted by Hybrid1
[br]I did that for a while too. Thanks. Delays to travel time do to long lines in pickup and dropoff (especially Pentagon) helped to sway my decision to purchase a hybrid. I saved at least 20-30 minutes of my time in the morning at 30-45 minutes in the evening. Over time that adds up to time I can spend with my family or doing other more important things then driving. I enjoy a relaxing ride on the way home, listening to whatever music I feel appropriate to wind down with, and under the Slug Etiquette, my music might offend potential riders. I think the system is wonderful, I just prefer to lead a less stressful life with less time on the road and more alone time to think and whatnot. I don't think we should be frowned upon, and found that it made me somewhat angry.
Chris
"In DC, time is money, unfortunately"
(Oh and on that note, aren't I doing more for my environment by running my automobile an hour less each day?)
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2003 at 3:03pm
quote:
Originally posted by 3ForHOV
[br]We've slugged in to work every day so far this week since our child is with the grandparents. And yes, when we aren't slugging, we are already meeting the HOV-3 criteria.
Slugging and picking up slugs is a very convenient system. There are others out there doing the same thing as I am - somedays slugs will choose to drive, other days drivers will choose to slug. Either way, we are meeting the HOV criteria and contribute to the success of the slugging system. Just like your hybrid is a convenience to you, slugging is a convenience to others. 'Nuf said.
Yep, I said something very similar in the other hybrid thread on 28 May.
quote:
extract from another thread by mroyal
[br]"My point is that I and many others slug for convenience and/or cost savings. If it were more convenient and/or cheaper (as well as legal) to drive solo, then my bet is that we all would."
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
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Posted By: Chamud
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2003 at 8:12am
I've been picking up riders for the last 4 years, but now seriously consider ways to avoid it.
One of the ways to accomplish it is to purchase some sort of exemption car.
Reasons, if curious:
I just wasn't lucky with riders, I guess... Last time a rider broke my door handle... I guess I should have demanded payment, but I didn't feel like demanding anything.
Well, this is minor thing, and by itself would not prompt me to reconsider picking up riders.
The other reason is that there's a degree of gamble each time in a sense that I don't know if the rider will be nice or not. Sometimes riders with big bags sit in the back. They put their bags that were on the ground minutes before on my clean seats, they do something that leaves pieces of paper, napkins, and things like that. I know how it may sound to some of you. Most of you practice good hygene (you are not sweat and dusty, and are not breaking wind) when taking rides, but not all.
The other factor is time... I don't want to drive to pentagon parkin lot ever... I'm driving to Judiciary square, and I want riders to that area.
Anyways, riders save tons of money each year, while drivers have to spend tons of money on gas, parking, and etc. It would be fair to permanently convert HOV into HOV+CleanCar lanes.
If you are truly concerned about decreasing number of cars in the HOV lanes, you would more good by taking VRE train, and not by imposing your ideas on the drivers. VRE is the ultimate thing for you - you will save the environment and make your commute confortable! Read and talk while riding! The more people are taking VRE, the more improvements will be introduced to its service.
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2003 at 10:24am
quote:
Originally posted by Chamud
[br]I've been picking up riders for the last 4 years, but now seriously consider ways to avoid it.
One of the ways to accomplish it is to purchase some sort of exemption car.
Reasons, if curious:
I just wasn't lucky with riders, I guess... Last time a rider broke my door handle... I guess I should have demanded payment, but I didn't feel like demanding anything.
Well, this is minor thing, and by itself would not prompt me to reconsider picking up riders.
The other reason is that there's a degree of gamble each time in a sense that I don't know if the rider will be nice or not. Sometimes riders with big bags sit in the back. They put their bags that were on the ground minutes before on my clean seats, they do something that leaves pieces of paper, napkins, and things like that. I know how it may sound to some of you. Most of you practice good hygene (you are not sweat and dusty, and are not breaking wind) when taking rides, but not all.
The other factor is time... I don't want to drive to pentagon parkin lot ever... I'm driving to Judiciary square, and I want riders to that area.
Anyways, riders save tons of money each year, while drivers have to spend tons of money on gas, parking, and etc. It would be fair to permanently convert HOV into HOV+CleanCar lanes.
If you are truly concerned about decreasing number of cars in the HOV lanes, you would more good by taking VRE train, and not by imposing your ideas on the drivers. VRE is the ultimate thing for you - you will save the environment and make your commute confortable! Read and talk while riding! The more people are taking VRE, the more improvements will be introduced to its service.
WRT litter by passengers. I had a similar experience when I drove a 15 passenger vanpool. The riders seemed to expect the driver to keep the van clean.
Having said that though, I don't think most slug riders reach that level of complacency. If they do, then they should be reminded that they are a guest and not a customer.
WRT VRE... I tried that for a while too. Just not flexible enough for my needs, albeit fairly enjoyable. I think that if I commuted from Fredericksburgh, it would be a no-brainer, because of the daily slowdowns and backups between Dumfries and Stafford.
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
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Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2003 at 4:42pm
I am so happy to see so many people that agree with me. Hybrids should not get a clean fuel exemption! The only cars under federal law that can get exemptions are ILEVs(inherently low emmission vehicle). Hybrids are NOT ILEVs! This is why California does not give hybrid exemptions, but CNG and electric cars do get exemptions in CA.
Also, hybrids are not SULEVs like some people have brought up in this forum. The Toyota Prius is rated SULEV in California because the gas is different there. The Prius is NOT nationally rated SULEV! Depending on the gas you are using, some of the smaller SUVs are cleaner than the Prius. So that "90% cleaner than the average car" I continue to see used does not apply in VA.
I drive a diesel car and run it on biodiesel. Biodiesel is used in trucking fleets in order to get clean fuel credit and was one of the first(if not the first) fuel to be recognized by the EPA as a clean fuel. I tried to get clean fuel plates in VA but was denied. Does it make any sense that a vehicle running a clean, domestically produced, renewable fuel and gets over 40 MPG can't get clean fuel plates but a gasoline powered car can? BTW, I was still going to pick up slugs, I just wanted the plates to promote biodiesel use.
After getting denied by VA DMV, I did a lot more research and found the federal law about ILEVs and the HOV exemption.
It really drives me nuts to see these hybrid drivers in the HOV lanes thinking they are doing so much for the environment when really they are just adding to congestion and making things worse.
see 23 USC Sec. 102a) for the federal law.
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Posted By: vabigblue
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2003 at 9:19am
quote:
Originally posted by Wagonman
[br]I am so happy to see so many people that agree with me. Hybrids should not get a clean fuel exemption! The only cars under federal law that can get exemptions are ILEVs(inherently low emmission vehicle). Hybrids are NOT ILEVs! This is why California does not give hybrid exemptions, but CNG and electric cars do get exemptions in CA.
Also, hybrids are not SULEVs like some people have brought up in this forum. The Toyota Prius is rated SULEV in California because the gas is different there. The Prius is NOT nationally rated SULEV! Depending on the gas you are using, some of the smaller SUVs are cleaner than the Prius. So that "90% cleaner than the average car" I continue to see used does not apply in VA.
I drive a diesel car and run it on biodiesel. Biodiesel is used in trucking fleets in order to get clean fuel credit and was one of the first(if not the first) fuel to be recognized by the EPA as a clean fuel. I tried to get clean fuel plates in VA but was denied. Does it make any sense that a vehicle running a clean, domestically produced, renewable fuel and gets over 40 MPG can't get clean fuel plates but a gasoline powered car can? BTW, I was still going to pick up slugs, I just wanted the plates to promote biodiesel use.
After getting denied by VA DMV, I did a lot more research and found the federal law about ILEVs and the HOV exemption.
It really drives me nuts to see these hybrid drivers in the HOV lanes thinking they are doing so much for the environment when really they are just adding to congestion and making things worse.
see 23 USC Sec. 102a) for the federal law.
hear! hear!
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Posted By: 3ForHOV
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2003 at 11:58am
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I second that vabigblue and wagonman!!! Hybrids burn gasoline during highway driving (e.g., I-95 HOV) and they are more efficient during stop and go because this is when the battery "takes over." Braking recharges the battery. So all this mucka mucka about hybrids and the environment is just that...mucka mucka.
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Posted By: JiggaJynx
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2003 at 11:03am
Just out of curiosity, how many pro-hybrid responders go to places that no one slugs to? When I need to be in the Springfield/Newington area or need to take the Metro from Franconia-Springfield station, I have to leave my house at 5:15 if I want to use the HOV lanes, at least since the current enforcement effort began. Fortunately, those destinations are less frequent for me since I changed jobs and started slugging from Woodbridge to Rosslyn or the Pentagon, but I seriously considered buying a hybrid so I could get to and from Springfield.[:D]
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2003 at 9:44pm
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Don't tell anyone, but the number of "excemption" cars has about doubled since the beginning of this year. From under 4000CF on the plates to one I saw last week that was 8419CF. This is assuming they are issued sequentially and someone didn't get a personalized plate that said "8419CF" for their new hybrid.
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2003 at 11:57am
quote:
Originally posted by MDC
[br]Don't tell anyone, but the number of "excemption" cars has about doubled since the beginning of this year. From under 4000CF on the plates to one I saw last week that was 8419CF. This is assuming they are issued sequentially and someone didn't get a personalized plate that said "8419CF" for their new hybrid.
That doesn't make any sense at all.
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2003 at 12:25pm
quote:
Originally posted by Wagonman
[br]I am so happy to see so many people that agree with me. Hybrids should not get a clean fuel exemption! The only cars under federal law that can get exemptions are ILEVs(inherently low emmission vehicle). Hybrids are NOT ILEVs! This is why California does not give hybrid exemptions, but CNG and electric cars do get exemptions in CA.
Also, hybrids are not SULEVs like some people have brought up in this forum. The Toyota Prius is rated SULEV in California because the gas is different there. The Prius is NOT nationally rated SULEV! Depending on the gas you are using, some of the smaller SUVs are cleaner than the Prius. So that "90% cleaner than the average car" I continue to see used does not apply in VA.
I drive a diesel car and run it on biodiesel. Biodiesel is used in trucking fleets in order to get clean fuel credit and was one of the first(if not the first) fuel to be recognized by the EPA as a clean fuel. I tried to get clean fuel plates in VA but was denied. Does it make any sense that a vehicle running a clean, domestically produced, renewable fuel and gets over 40 MPG can't get clean fuel plates but a gasoline powered car can? BTW, I was still going to pick up slugs, I just wanted the plates to promote biodiesel use.
After getting denied by VA DMV, I did a lot more research and found the federal law about ILEVs and the HOV exemption.
It really drives me nuts to see these hybrid drivers in the HOV lanes thinking they are doing so much for the environment when really they are just adding to congestion and making things worse.
see 23 USC Sec. 102a) for the federal law.
Ah, a person who actually researches.. Very good.
Unfortunately, your statements are not accurate. (Sorry, no time right now to dispell them individually)
But you came closest to a valid objection to Hybrids. Here, let me give you a clue.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/faq.htm
Keep in mind, that California has more stringent standards and this article is dated.
The real answer is Hydrogen, but our Lords of Petrol will find that battle till the end.
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
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Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2003 at 1:01pm
mroyal,
Why do you think California's AB71 was written to restrict exemptions for only ILEV vehicles? Because of federal laws. Saying my statements are wrong and not even saying which statement was wrong and not providing facts to the contrary isn't very responsible.
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2003 at 12:41pm
quote:
Originally posted by Wagonman
[br]mroyal,
Why do you think California's AB71 was written to restrict exemptions for only ILEV vehicles? Because of federal laws. Saying my statements are wrong and not even saying which statement was wrong and not providing facts to the contrary isn't very responsible.
Ah, but things are changing. California has a relatively new classification called the Advanced Technology Partial Zero-Emmissions Vehicle (AT-PZEV) and now that manufacturers are achieving this rating, governments are reviewing their legislation.
http://www.autointell-news.com/News-2003/June-2003/June-2003-3/June-18-03-p5.htm
I suspect that the folks in the Commonwealth government recognizes the advantages of AT-PZEV and would like to encourage the investment of building them and the risk of early adoption.
Seems to be working.
These are the statements that you said that I don't agree with.
"...hybrids are not SULEVs like some people have brought up in this forum."
They most certainly are. SULEV is a California certification that is recognized by most, if not all other states.
"The Toyota Prius is rated SULEV in California because the gas is different there."
I don't know for a fact, but I doubt that the gas is much different there. Even if there were required additives, I don't believe there would be substantial performance delta.
"The Prius is NOT nationally rated SULEV!"
Yes it is. The SULEV certification is by California ARB, not EPA.
"Depending on the gas you are using, some of the smaller SUVs are cleaner than the Prius. So that "90% cleaner than the average car" I continue to see used does not apply in VA."
Do you have any facts to support this? The EPA reports that I have seen contradict your statement.
btw, we own a Honda Civic.
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2003 at 2:18pm
quote:
Originally posted by mroyal
[br]quote:
Originally posted by Wagonman
[br]mroyal,
Why do you think California's AB71 was written to restrict exemptions for only ILEV vehicles? Because of federal laws. Saying my statements are wrong and not even saying which statement was wrong and not providing facts to the contrary isn't very responsible.
Ah, but things are changing. California has a relatively new classification called the Advanced Technology Partial Zero-Emmissions Vehicle (AT-PZEV) and now that manufacturers are achieving this rating, governments are reviewing their legislation.
http://www.autointell-news.com/News-2003/June-2003/June-2003-3/June-18-03-p5.htm
I suspect that the folks in the Commonwealth government recognizes the advantages of AT-PZEV and would like to encourage the investment of building them and the risk of early adoption.
Seems to be working.
These are the statements that you said that I don't agree with.
"...hybrids are not SULEVs like some people have brought up in this forum."
They most certainly are. SULEV is a California certification that is recognized by most, if not all other states.
"The Toyota Prius is rated SULEV in California because the gas is different there."
I don't know for a fact, but I doubt that the gas is much different there. Even if there were required additives, I don't believe there would be substantial performance delta.
"The Prius is NOT nationally rated SULEV!"
Yes it is. The SULEV certification is by California ARB, not EPA.
"Depending on the gas you are using, some of the smaller SUVs are cleaner than the Prius. So that "90% cleaner than the average car" I continue to see used does not apply in VA."
Do you have any facts to support this? The EPA reports that I have seen contradict your statement.
btw, we own a Honda Civic.
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
Looking around a little further, I did find a statement which supports one of your claims.
This from
http://www.epa.gov/autoemissions/faq.htm#buy
"In actuality, the emissions from the California vehicle may also be slightly better than those from the Federal vehicle, due to the cleaner fuel which is available in California. "
The best resource I have found on the subject of Hybrids and HOV is at
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/operations/hovguide01.htm
Based on the (limited) research that I have done during the course of these two threads lead me to the following conclusions.
1. The Federal Government has authority over HOV regulations that are extended to States.
2. The federal law does not currently allow hybrids as an HOV exception. It does allow vehicles which are certified as ILEVs (though I can't put my finger on that list)
3. If States have a law which permits hybrids in HOV, they are in jeopardy of losing Federal Funds.
4. Virginia is one of the very few States that allow hybrids in HOV and they are doing so cautiously as a "Pilot" program and will quickly cease if they are confronted by Federal Highway Association.
5. Many states have pending legislation that will allow hybrids in HOV. They are probably waiting on the outcome of
6. HR 243 IH Hybrid Vehicle Incentive Act which would change the US Code to allow hybrids in HOV
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:h.r.00243:
Notwithstanding all that I have learned, my opinions have not changed, nor do I think yours will.
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
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Posted By: eziggy3
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2003 at 7:51am
You people are just angry because you don't like the idea that you have to buy a hybrid to avoid picking up slugs. If someone parked a hybrid in your driveway you would be using it tomorrow...alone.
I slug to work on a daily basis and I don't see all the hybrid congestion everyone is claiming.
eziggy3
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Posted By: mycroftt
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2003 at 8:30am
quote:
Originally posted by mroyal
The real answer is Hydrogen, but our Lords of Petrol will find that battle till the end.
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
Indeed it is the answer - better living through hydrogen! Just look how successful it was in the Hindenburg.
Cheers,
Mike
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Posted By: eziggy3
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2003 at 8:31am
Look at I95 now. Apparently the HOV isn't doing much for congestion. So taking a few hybrids out of the mix is a good thing.
eziggy3
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Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2003 at 12:24pm
Here are the EPA rating for the Prius: http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-TOYOTA-Prius-03.htm
Notice, nationally it is only a 7. Here is the rating for a small SUV:
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-VOLVO-XC90-03.htm
Notice that the 5 cylinder version is CLEANER than the Prius for most of the country, including VA. Should we let them in the HOV lanes also? Look on that list and you will find numerous cars that are cleaner than the Prius's 7 rating.
Hydrogen cars are a pipe dream used to placate the masses so that no tough changes will be forced on the oil and automobile industry in the near term. Hydrogen power is not a clean fuel source, it needs to be made from the same old dirty energy sources we already use. The oil industry loves it because the easiest way to make hydrogen is to make it from oil. It is a pollution displacement technique. Remove pollution from the tailpipe and place it at the hydrogen source.
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Posted By: cbanitap
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2003 at 3:37pm
quote:
Originally posted by Eric
[br]Amen! Since these hybrids don't have 3x the mileage of a regular car, and I seriously doubt they have 1/3 the emissions, widespread use of hybrids in HOV is a net loser for the environment. And the added congestion will slow EVERYBODY down, thus causing even MORE pollution.
Well, it's not like most of the people making that decision are chock full of logic or common sense -- those are qualities that are generally a detriment to a political career...
- Eric.
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Posted By: cbanitap
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2003 at 3:43pm
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Eric -- I just joined and am very perplexed by your comments relative to hybrids. First of all, what does getting 3x the mileage have to do with anything. My car, the Toyota Prius is a SUPER ULTRA LOW EMISSIONS CAR!! The purpose of the HOV lanes is to reduce the emissions. Don't worry about the lanes being clogged -- people are buying at a slow rate. Maybe the more they improve, the more people will buy. If you wish to ride in a car by yourself, buy one!!! I average 49 - 52 miles per gallon in addition to the low emissions and the hov use. Not only that, I received 10% TAX credit just for buying one. Are you going to complain to the IRS? Thanks to eziggy3 for his comments. I agree wholeheartedly. Right now, it isn't illegal, I'm within my rights (free country), until they say stop, right now, I'M RIDING HIGH and LOV'N IT> See you in the HOV !:)
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Posted By: cbanitap
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2003 at 3:50pm
quote:
Originally posted by Eric
[br]Amen! Since these hybrids don't have 3x the mileage of a regular car, and I seriously doubt they have 1/3 the emissions, widespread use of hybrids in HOV is a net loser for the environment. And the added congestion will slow EVERYBODY down, thus causing even MORE pollution.
Well, it's not like most of the people making that decision are chock full of logic or common sense -- those are qualities that are generally a detriment to a political career...
- Eric.
Eric -- I am a bit perplexed by your comments. What does 3x the gas mileage have to do with anything? My Prius is SUPER ULTRA LOW EMISSIONS and I average 49 - 52 miles per gallon. The purpose of HOV is to reduce the emissions, not to have 2+ people in the car. Well my car is ultra low. At the rate people are buying the hybrids it will be sometime before the lanes are clogged with them.....Try urban over development!!!!! Don't see you complaining about all the houses being built (i.e., added vehicles). THe only reason I gave up my Mazda 626 was because of my privilege to use the HOV lane.... I jumped at the chance. Not to mention the tax credit I received. Are you now going to complain to the IRS? I love my car and am enjoying flying in the HOV. Try one, you'll like it. Quit complaining!
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Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2003 at 4:20pm
quote:
Originally posted by cbanitap
[br]
Eric -- I am a bit perplexed by your comments. What does 3x the gas mileage have to do with anything? My Prius is SUPER ULTRA LOW EMISSIONS and I average 49 - 52 miles per gallon. The purpose of HOV is to reduce the emissions, not to have 2+ people in the car. Well my car is ultra low. At the rate people are buying the hybrids it will be sometime before the lanes are clogged with them.....Try urban over development!!!!! Don't see you complaining about all the houses being built (i.e., added vehicles). THe only reason I gave up my Mazda 626 was because of my privilege to use the HOV lane.... I jumped at the chance. Not to mention the tax credit I received. Are you now going to complain to the IRS? I love my car and am enjoying flying in the HOV. Try one, you'll like it. Quit complaining!
You should read some of the earlier posts about just how clean your car really is.
For instance, a 2002(last year it was made) 626 get a 7 rating http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-MAZDA-626-02.htm
Your ultra clean Prius gets the same rating in Virginia:
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-TOYOTA-Prius-03.htm
People driving hybrids with clean fuel plates should feel guilty!
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Posted By: cbanitap
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2003 at 4:50pm
quote:
Originally posted by Wagonman
[br]quote:
Originally posted by cbanitap
[br]
Eric -- I am a bit perplexed by your comments. What does 3x the gas mileage have to do with anything? My Prius is SUPER ULTRA LOW EMISSIONS and I average 49 - 52 miles per gallon. The purpose of HOV is to reduce the emissions, not to have 2+ people in the car. Well my car is ultra low. At the rate people are buying the hybrids it will be sometime before the lanes are clogged with them.....Try urban over development!!!!! Don't see you complaining about all the houses being built (i.e., added vehicles). THe only reason I gave up my Mazda 626 was because of my privilege to use the HOV lane.... I jumped at the chance. Not to mention the tax credit I received. Are you now going to complain to the IRS? I love my car and am enjoying flying in the HOV. Try one, you'll like it. Quit complaining!
You should read some of the earlier posts about just how clean your car really is.
For instance, a 2002(last year it was made) 626 get a 7 rating http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-MAZDA-626-02.htm
Your ultra clean Prius gets the same rating in Virginia:
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-TOYOTA-Prius-03.htm
People driving hybrids with clean fuel plates should feel guilty!
Do I feel guilty!!! Heck no!! I like the idea of driving something that does not pollute the air and I'm using less gas so all you SUV owners can have more for your big, gas guzzlers!!! that dirty the air and take up more space[:D][:D][:0]
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