Hybrids: cost vs. savings
Printed From: Slug-Lines.com
Category: Archived Slugging Topics
Forum Name: Hybrids
Forum Description: This area is devoted to the discussion of hybrid vehicles and their impact to the HOV.
URL: http://www.slug-lines.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1823
Printed Date: 27 Apr 2024 at 7:55am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Hybrids: cost vs. savings
Posted By: Laura TG
Subject: Hybrids: cost vs. savings
Date Posted: 02 Jun 2005 at 12:55pm
23. AUTOS
Hybrids unlikely to save owners money, study says
Alex Kaplun, Greenwire reporter
Hybrid vehicles are not efficient enough to produce long-term savings for their owners, even with gas prices soaring, according to a study released yesterday.
An analysis by Edmunds.com Inc. found the increased total costs of owning a hybrid most likely will not be covered by the savings in gasoline use for most drivers. In calculating the total cost of owning a vehicle, the company considered the initial purchase price, insurance costs, maintenance costs and various tax credits and financing costs.
Overall, the company found the cost of hybrid ownership over the first five years for virtually all models would exceed the traditional counterpart by $3,400 to $5,200. To break even, a hybrid owner would either have to drive far more miles through that period than the average driver or gas prices would have to increase dramatically.
Michael Chung, a price and market analyst for Edmunds.com, said that while the technology may become more cost-effective in the long-run the current high demand for the vehicles will keep prices high for at least another couple years.
"They provide a lot of value on top of fuel economy," Chung said. "All these perks really drive up the value of these vehicles that are more intrinsic rather than qualitative."
For example, the study estimates the total cost of buying and operating a Ford Escape hybrid over five years at $50,521 -- almost $3,500 more than a non-hybrid counterpart. In order to cover those extra costs during the five year period, gasoline prices would have to reach an average of $5.60 per gallon or the driver's annual mileage would have to exceed 37,000 miles.
The cost difference is even more dramatic with the Honda Accord and Honda Civic hybrids, both of which cost at least $3,600 more than the traditional models. In both cases, the consumer would need to drive more than 60,000 miles per year or gas would have to increase to more than $9 per gallon in order to break even.
The only model currently available that would come close to breaking even for consumers is the Toyota Prius hybrid as compared to the traditional Toyota Camry vehicle. According to the study, at the current average price of $2.28 per gallon of gasoline and 15,000 miles in annual driving, the Prius would save the consumer $81 compared to the Camry over the first five years of ownership.
At the same time, the Prius would cost far more than another popular Toyota, the Corolla. The Prius driver would need to drive more than 66,000 miles a year or gas would have to rise above $10 in order to break even.
Chung admitted that consumers may see additional savings if they keep a hybrid beyond five years but also pointed out that there are many unknowns with the long-term viability of hybrid technology. Because hybrids have only been in mass use for a couple of years, questions remain about their reliability, the extra costs associated with repairing a hybrid battery and the resale value of the vehicles.
But Chung added that even if hybrids do not turn out to be the money-savers that consumers may think, they are likely to remain popular with consumers in the near-term because of their "cool" factor. He specifically cited the Prius -- by far the most popular of the hybrid models -- as becoming a hit with consumers because of its unique look, its environmentally friendly reputation and its use by some celebrities.
"The Prius of all hybrids became the cool car to own -- it was environmentally sound and it looked different," Chung said. "Toyota really pulled out all the stops with that vehicle, they really wanted to show it as the technology trendsetter."
|
Replies:
Posted By: qorc
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2005 at 8:04am
what the study left out is the RELATIVE savings to a driver, other advantages, and the tax break.
I got a $2,000 tax credit last year for buying one.
I get to drive to work more quickly and efficiently - that has value to me. I save at least 20 minutes each way by not slugging or picking up slugs
oh, and by trading in my truck (12-13 mpg), I only paid $11,000 for the Prius, and I get approximately 50mpg highway and 38 around town, for an average of 46 usually (drive more highway than city). Instead of paying $60 to fill up my truck 2x a week to drive to work, I fill up the Prius ONCE a week for $19.
SO this all has to be taken into context - what was the new hybrid owner doing BEFORE? and what was he/she driving?
Hence...it's quite worth it to me.
|
Posted By: DC2RV
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2005 at 8:34am
|
Qorc - do you pay for parking? If so, how much?
|
Posted By: scottt
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2005 at 8:42am
qorc, I think you missed the point of the article. The point is that you could have purchased a Toyota Corolla or such and still saved gas.
For example. I believe I read in one of my auto magazines (Car and Driver, or MotorTrend) that if you priced out a Ford Escape Hybrid, and a non-Hybrid Escape with the same features (power windows, locks, etc) and you drove 15k miles per year, it would take you 8 years to break even on the gas savings vs. the extra cost paid for the hybrid.
And if you are in the 28% tax bracket (like most of us) the $2000 tax credit only equals $560 in your pocket.
|
Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2005 at 9:12am
By this point, it ought to be obvious that gas savings and reduced pollution are not the motivating factors in deciding to purchase a hybrid: HOV use is. How else would one account for the fact that little ole Virginia has almost as many hybrids as huge California? The answer is obvious and qorc says it himself: he "gets to drive to work more quickly and efficiently." The me-first philosophy is what is driving people to buy hybrids.
So qorc saves 20 minutes not picking up slugs. How nice of him to spare us his presence.
|
Posted By: qorc
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2005 at 9:21am
|
$45 a month and right in my building. It's a sweet deal. And yeah its worth it to me to not have to slog back and forth from the pentagon twice a day.
|
Posted By: qorc
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2005 at 9:23am
quote:
Originally posted by scottt
[br]qorc, I think you missed the point of the article. The point is that you could have purchased a Toyota Corolla or such and still saved gas.
For example. I believe I read in one of my auto magazines (Car and Driver, or MotorTrend) that if you priced out a Ford Escape Hybrid, and a non-Hybrid Escape with the same features (power windows, locks, etc) and you drove 15k miles per year, it would take you 8 years to break even on the gas savings vs. the extra cost paid for the hybrid.
And if you are in the 28% tax bracket (like most of us) the $2000 tax credit only equals $560 in your pocket.
No, I got the point. But I wouldn't get the advantages of driving HOV solo, nor the tax credit, etc.
For ME, it was worth it. I got rid of a gas guzzler, I paid relatively little for the Prius ($11,000, and then got a $2,000 tax credit), I save the equivalent of $100 a week on gas, and I accrue all the advantages of driving solo on HOV. Yup, totally worth it to me.
|
Posted By: qorc
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2005 at 9:26am
quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]By this point, it ought to be obvious that gas savings and reduced pollution are not the motivating factors in deciding to purchase a hybrid: HOV use is. How else would one account for the fact that little ole Virginia has almost as many hybrids as huge California? The answer is obvious and qorc says it himself: he "gets to drive to work more quickly and efficiently." The me-first philosophy is what is driving people to buy hybrids.
So qorc saves 20 minutes not picking up slugs. How nice of him to spare us his presence.
whatever, dude. I was a slug for a long time too. You wouldn't know me from anyone else in line. Pretty much just like everyone else.
Yes, time and privacy are important to me. So of course, I only occasionally stop and pick up slugs. But at my lot, it's not an issue (234) - there are usually more drivers than slugs by the time I get there (6:30). I'm not keeping ANYONE from a ride by not stopping.
|
Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2005 at 10:17am
Yeah, I know; 234 is a bad place to commute out of -- did it myself from the day it opened until it started getting full too early. Now I meet my carpool at Horner, regrettably adding to the number of vehicles on I95 south each evening between Horner and 234. Oh well.
While you know my feelings on high-breds and smugs and all that, I do think these vehicles ought to be heavily subsidized by the government with tax breaks and other incentives. Big fat tax breaks that cut the price in half. Event though hybrids aren't the ultimate eco-answer we need, they are at least a step in the right direction. We ought to encourage their use (carrying 3 people, that is! [:D])
|
Posted By: qorc
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2005 at 2:20pm
if I passed the 234 lot and saw people waiting for drivers and there were no cars there, I would definitely turn in and pick them up (and have done so). But that almost NEVER happens. It's usually the other way around. By 6:30, the lot is pretty much full so there are relatively few slugs and drivers sitting in a long line waiting for SOMEONE to pick up.
Honest.
|
Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2005 at 12:35pm
The article seemed a little out of wack to me, cause our annual cost to operate the hybrid is not high at all.
So, I called the author to get his source and it's here.
http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/105827/article.html?tid=edmunds.h..pressrelease..1.*
And the real meat n potatos is the True Cost to Own (TCO) calculator here
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/cto/CTOintroController
With that calculator, the major difference is the delta in cash price, the cost of financing, and the depreciation. The article states a difference in the cash price of the Hybrid over the Civic as about $3500, but when I ran the two vehicles, it actually had a difference of $5286 with depreciation of the hybrid $3067 higher then the Civic. When I ran it, I got a 5-year cost of $27,111 on the hybrid and $24,818 on the Civic. That's what, a $2293 difference over five years or $458.60 per year.
I wonder if HOT is going to be less than $458.60 per year to drive solo? (sorry, wrong thread)
In reality, if my wife had not purchased the hybrid, we would have gotten the Accord 4 door which would have been $29,595 over five years so we actually saved $2,484. Actually more than that, because Edmunds didn't factor in the tax incentive, did they...
btw, here's one for my old buddies on this forum.
Top 10 Most Fuel-Efficient Cars for 2005
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/list/top10/103325/article.html
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
edited to correct typos - hope all were fixd.
|
Posted By: bolo5757
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2005 at 9:47am
|
Well as Prius owner I tell people it's a fools errand to by one to save money. $14k honda civic vs a $27k Prius, I gotta tell ya, the $13k difference buys ALOT of gas. I bought it because I get 13 hours of my life back every week and my kids enjoy that fact. Some things are more important than money.
|
Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2005 at 2:37pm
|
I bought my hybrid back when I lived in upstate NY - it was all about the milage. When I moved here along with 300,000 of my best friends, I had the unintended benefit of HOV. It's not all about the commute for every hybrid owner, but until we get toll roads to better balance the congestion between the regular and HOV lanes, using hybrids as a discriminator seems to make more sense than SUVs.
|
Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2005 at 2:44pm
Balance? You mean the HOV should be about as congested as the main lines?
The incentive to carpool is the time savings (which you've been able to benefit from and reduce by your very presence).
I'm glad you got the benefit. It shouldn't last too much longer though...
HOT will take years to actually impact the commute.
I should be living in a rural area working in a rural job by then...there's my selfish bent coming out...or is it altruistic in that I'll reduce the congestion by my absence...
That's awfully nice of me!
NoSb
|
Posted By: qorc
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2005 at 7:20am
it's all relative, my friend. I got the Prius for a net $11,400 after trading in my gas-guzzling Pickup truck.
And I got a $2,000 tax credit last year for buying it.
I was spending the equivalent of $120 a week in the truck in gas. I now spend $20. I get 50-51 mpg on my run to work and back each day. My truck got 12-13 mpg. Yeah, it's a big difference.
My commute is now faster, more certain and frankly easier. That counts for something.
Is it worth the money? You bet.
|
Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2005 at 3:40pm
|
Ahh, now I know he definition of a Smug!
|
Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2005 at 4:06pm
and the implementation of the definition of smug leads to utilizing all that "excess capacity" in the HOV
NoSb
|
Posted By: scottt
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2005 at 4:56pm
quote:
Originally posted by qorc
[br]
And I got a $2,000 tax credit last year for buying it.
Again, a $2000 tax credit is not $2000 in your pocket. It's whatever your tax bracket is (or $560 for me)
|
Posted By: qorc
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2005 at 8:23am
again, it doesn't make me "smug" - people here were challenging whether hybrids are worth it.
To me, it's worth it.
If that makes me "smug," so be it.
But get real. If you can't deal with the facts, I guess you have to resort to name-calling? Tacit admission that you've lost the argument.
Yes, a tax credit isn't cash, but it made a difference. My cost overall of buying this car is more than made up for by my savings in gas per month (at least $300, probably more like $375) and the convenience and time-savings of getting to work.
Why does this upset you so? You made your choice - I made mine. Mine works for me.
|
Posted By: VA4ver
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2005 at 8:58am
What upsets everyone is that the fact that times are a-changing (there's a song) and it's painful. This area is suffering from huge growing pains and the infrastructure (roads, hospitals, schools, etc.) isn't keeping up. This causes frustration and anger. The system is ailing but there's no quick or inexpensive fix to the problem. ALOT of people do not have the option to carpool -- they don't work in or near the city, or their hours are such that it's not feasible. Seems to me that it's the federal government 9-5'ers (or whatever your flex hours are) who do the majority of the carpooling.
Hybrids do save a little here and there. But really it's all about encouraging new technology so that we stop using gas for everything. I do have a bone to pick with the hybrid owners who taunt everyone else. Knock it off and, if you can, pick up a slug or form a regular carpool. There's no need to cause a riot.
|
Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2005 at 3:42pm
|
It's not the facts that upset me. It's the people coming here saying they save 30-40 minutes per day by driving themselves instead of slugging. Then they say that the traffic needs to be "balanced" between the regular and HOV lanes because they (the smugs) are still going faster than the regular lanes...
|
Posted By: qorc
Date Posted: 20 Jun 2005 at 7:13am
I'm not taunting anyone else here. In fact, it's hybrid owners who are constantly taunted and ridiculed.
The same people that think nothing of allowing exemptions for motorcyles and children counting on HOV - as if THAT reduces congestion and removes drivers.
Who's taunting? I got my hybrid. I'm saving time and about $300 in gas per month! That's $3600 a year, conservatively, and the more that gas goes up, the more I'm saving. Yeah, I'm happy with my choice.
to ME, it makes sense. I couldn't get to the 234 lot early enough to park and slug. It fills up so early now.
Am I hurting slugs by not picking them up? No. By the time I pass 234, the lot is FULL and there are HUGE numbers of cars waiting for slugs who now show up in a trickle, due to the lack of parking. Thus, no one is being delayed by me. What is my choice? pull in there and sit in line another 15 ore more minutes waiting for slugs to show up? why?
I don't care what the rest of you do.
|
Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 20 Jun 2005 at 8:53am
qorc sez: Thus, no one is being delayed by me.
Oh, really? Did you happen to notice all the traffic piled up in the HOV today? If the numbers are correct and 18% of vehicles in the HOV are hybrids, then you did delay someone.
qorc sez: I don't care what the rest of you do.
There's the reason people get called names. People who won't pick up others to reduce congestion, who don't think they are impacting an increasingly difficult situation and "don't care".
It's an open forum here. I just wonder why SOVs even bother to sign on here. They're not slugging, they're not picking up riders, they're only contributing to the congestion in the HOVs and on this forum with inputs that don't work towards any workable solution.
Why ask why?
NoSb
|
Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 20 Jun 2005 at 9:16am
N or S Bound: long ago the rest of us decided to ignore Qorc in the so-far-vain attempt that he would complete his metamorphosis into a cockroach. Judging from recent posts, he's progressing nicely.
Reality and reason are not Qorc's strong points, so one need not pester him by pointing out the obvious: fewer people in more vehicles = slower commutes for everybody (including smugs like him.)
It is, you see, all about Qorc and Qorc's wants and wishes. He'd rather sit alone in his high-bred stuck in traffic, than be bothered with going to Potomac Mills, where there remains plenty of parking until 9:00 a.m.
Save your typing, N or S Bound: you can't teach a pig to sing or a smug to share.
|
Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 20 Jun 2005 at 10:47am
Point taken Sponge.
:-X
NoSb
|
Posted By: qorc
Date Posted: 20 Jun 2005 at 11:13am
just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't have a point to make.
When you name-call you're acknowledging that you've lost the argument.
Thanks so much!
|
Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 20 Jun 2005 at 11:51am
|
I believe there probably have been several thousand CF plates issued since that 18% number was determined.
|
Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 20 Jun 2005 at 12:12pm
"Names" as such are descriptors as well. They can serve to abbreviate the discussion which enables getting to the point more quickly--that is, if you have a point.
Having to describe ALL that is rolled up into the labels given to those who drive hybrids would just take up too much space.
Thanks for playing. Bring on some real competition next time!
NoSb
|
Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 20 Jun 2005 at 12:14pm
Er, amend my previous reference to hybrids. It's not the vehicle, it's those who CHOOSE to drive them for the express purpose (pun intended) of driving in the HOV without meeting the requirement to have 3 people in the vehicle (in the case of HOV-3).
My apologies to those who drive vehicles with CF plates who do indeed carry the minimum number of people. There's a couple of them out there.
Those are people WITH A CLUE!
NoSb
|
Posted By: pocket52
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2005 at 8:53pm
Okay if you say so. [:D]
http:// - - -
|
Posted By: JKnight
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2005 at 8:56pm
Could someone help clue in a SoCal interested-bystander?
What's the requirement for a hybrid to drive solo in the HOV lane? Are all hybrids exempt, or only certain ones? Is there a limit to the number of clean vehicle plates issued?
And BTW, I'm really envious of your slugging ability. Here, the destinations are too diverse to make carpooling feasible for any but a relatively few. Our HOV lanes are mainly HOV-2.
Jan
|
|