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"8 Mile Backup" ?

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Topic: "8 Mile Backup" ?
Posted By: sluDgE
Subject: "8 Mile Backup" ?
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 7:50am
Just heard on the radio that there's an 8-mile HOV backup from Va 7100 south due to "HOV enforcement" at 7100. [V]
That must be why we're waiting for a couple of our officemates who live in Dumfries and Stafford to get to work. [:(]
HOV's were easy drive from Va 644 to P'gon at 6:20 this morning. [^]
[?] How was your commute in today? [?]

Keep on sluggin'! [:)]



Replies:
Posted By: CallmeMrSlug
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 7:57am
The commute took an hour and a half from Stafford. They had about 30 cop cars participating in the enforcement this morning, and I think they had 4 violators when we came by. It makes you wonder about the effectiveness and the timing of the enforcement since alot of people take this week off anyway. Oh well, hopefully this is a once in a blue moon event. I had never seen them back up the way to DC for enforcement like that. I think its alot more tolerable on the way home than on the way to work...


Posted By: slugcarrier
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 7:57am
Don't ever accuse the State Police of being brain surgeons. I am all for HOV enforcement but that wasn't the way to do it. There was a checkpoint at 644, on both shoulders. Had to be at least 15 State Police vehicles and 20-25 State Police checking each car. Problem was, 3/4 of them were standing around with their thumb up their butt shooting the breeze. Your VA tax dollars at work. Delayed me about 40 minutes getting in.


Posted By: flatulentsluggerhugger
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 7:59am
Sure did enjoy my 25 minute commute to work this morining. It's nice to live close to work in this area!!!!!

VOTE HOT!!!! SO GAS PASSERS LIKE ME WON'T ANNOY YOU!!!

whoever smealt it dealt it!!!!


Posted By: KCWolfPck
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 8:22am
When VA State Police call my house again this year begging for their donations....I am going to remind them of this day and how they already cost me $15 for missing 1/2 hr. of work.

Booyakasha!!!


Posted By: carleric
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 8:26am
Just so we understand: When people complain about the back up today what is YOUR solution to the issue of how to enforce? On several of the ramps violators can avoid the enforcement by turning around. At least this way more (in theory) can be caught. Is your objection the FACT of the enforcement or the NUMBER of idle-looking police?


Posted By: KCWolfPck
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 8:29am
I didn't say I had an objection. I'm all for enforcement.


Posted By: coulbc
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 8:34am
The problem here is the violators, not the enforcement. This reminds me of a little story. A man gets pulled over by the police for speeding, The officer then makes a request for his credentials and the man says "Hey, other people were speeeding also." The officer then says "You ever been fishin'?" The man replies "Lots of times." The officer then replies "You ever catch all the fish?"


Posted By: slugcarrier
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 8:35am
quote:
Originally posted by carleric
[br]Just so we understand: When people complain about the back up today what is YOUR solution to the issue of how to enforce? On several of the ramps violators can avoid the enforcement by turning around. At least this way more (in theory) can be caught. Is your objection the FACT of the enforcement or the NUMBER of idle-looking police?



No objection to enforcement, but this was overkill and just plain stupid. You would have thought there was a terrorist alert on the HOV the number of wasted assets there. Random presence in the HOV by police actively looking and pulling people over is much more efficient and less disruptive to the legal HOV cars and traffic flow. Knowledge of regular presence without a massive checkpoint is the way to deterrence.


Posted By: coulbc
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 8:40am
Considering many vehicles have tinted windows, are going 70 mph or more, or have someone laying down in the backseat, it's hard to watch every vehicle speed past. Predictable enforcement allows violators to find the loopholes. I agree a backup is bad, but the random traps are probably most effective. It would be nice to see how many are ticketed daily. I've heard a lot of statistics. Let's see the numbers please.


Posted By: jojobean
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 9:06am
My problem is not the enforcement but come on ....do you need that many cops? Then there is the timing, why not do it on a Friday afternoon when traffic is backed up anyway? I understand the surprise element but all they did this morning is give drivers a reason to slow down and wonder why the heck they need 30 cops to pull people over.


Posted By: cdatkins
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 9:30am
Enforcement: good

The way enforcement went down today: bad

Honestly, it doesn't make much sense to enforce like this if the extra time you will cause commuters is more than the extra time caused by cheaters.

The only positive for an event like this is the hope that a massive show of force will deter future cheaters.


Posted By: flatulentsluggerhugger
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 9:51am
Like I say vote HOT!!!!!!!! Violations will be reduced meaning reduced enforcement since the violators will now be paying!!!!!!!!!!

Meanwhile, I will enjoy my less than 1/2 hour commute each day!!!

VOTE HOT!!!! SO GAS PASSERS LIKE ME WON'T ANNOY YOU!!!

whoever smealt it dealt it!!!!


Posted By: WBSlug7
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 9:54am
WHAT?!! This is what the "police activity" was this morning? Just another random checkpoint HOV crackdown? We sat for nearly an hour from Potomac Mills to Lorton! I was over an hour late to work! Here I am thinking it was some accident or incident and it was just poor judgement to catch violators? Why can't they just stick to being at the ramps, that's way less disruptive. I agree with cdatkins...enforcement-good, this method-bad.

Forget Horner Rd, use Potomac Mills!


Posted By: koakui
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 9:54am
When we got on HOV this morning, the Potomac Mills onramp was backed up, just sitting still. I was 30 min late to work this morning. I was told that they brought the lanes down to single file at Newington with 15 officers on the ground - that is what WTOP reported. They said they were there for 1.5 hours. Once traffic got backed up, they left. I don't see what was wrong w/ having officers at the onramps. That seemed effective to me. Having them at only one place to catch people from further south seems distracting and of course causes back ups from people stopping/slowing and just plain ole' nosey people slowing down to take a look. The guy I rode in with this morning put in a call to the state police and they said they will be doing this more often and we are all lucky they didn't stay until 9:00 a.m. They told him this is the way they deemed most effective and they didn't see the problem in an ocassional backup. I sure hope they don't do this again and cause this traffic. This is going to be a major problem once school starts and there are more cars on the road.


Posted By: koakui
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 9:57am
I just saw this on WTOP: http://www.wtop.com/index.php?nid=25&sid=555388


Posted By: msticaries
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 10:20am
Okay it makes sense to have to have the violator in the lanes before they can ticket, BUT how many exits from HOV are there between Dumfries and DC? three? four? so why not wait for them on the exit ramps. If they are exiting they have been in the lanes. :)



Posted By: KCWolfPck
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 10:30am
[sarcasm] Think about it....if they continue to do this that would be a perferct deterence. They keep backing up the HOV like this and nobody will WANT to violate because it would be slower in the main lanes. In addition, carpoolers and vanpoolers will start using the main lanes because it is faster. Enforcement by removing the advantage of the HOV lanes. Pure genius!!!! [/sarcasm]


Posted By: koakui
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 10:35am
Well for what its worth, I just sent my 2 cents off via email to the State Troopers. Hopefully if enough people complain, they may not do this again and will go back to just waiting at the on-ramps or come up w/ some other solution that hopefully won't stop traffic dead in its place.


Posted By: ronin718
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 10:40am
quote:
Originally posted by msticaries
[br]Okay it makes sense to have to have the violator in the lanes before they can ticket, BUT how many exits from HOV are there between Dumfries and DC? three? four? so why not wait for them on the exit ramps. If they are exiting they have been in the lanes. :)


Because if they wait to do the busting at the off-ramps, all of you who complain about the backups from enforcement/no enforcement down south will complain about being backed up at the off-ramps. The boys in blue can't win!!!

My suggestion... If you think you can do a better job enforcing the HOV, quit your current job, earn the badge, and put your plan in action. In the meantime, be grateful for the enforcement. You guys say there isn't enough of it as is.



Posted By: carleric
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 10:52am
Read the WTOP article. It makes an excellent point - you cannot do enforcement on the on ramps because violators are only in violation once they reach the highway itself. It is not illegal for them to be on the on ramps.


Posted By: cedarcitynative
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 10:52am
Does anyone have a good contact for the VA State Police, so that we may all send in a kind note??


Posted By: msticaries
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 11:02am
quote:
Originally posted by ronin718
[br]
quote:
Originally posted by msticaries
[br]Okay it makes sense to have to have the violator in the lanes before they can ticket, BUT how many exits from HOV are there between Dumfries and DC? three? four? so why not wait for them on the exit ramps. If they are exiting they have been in the lanes. :)


Because if they wait to do the busting at the off-ramps, all of you who complain about the backups from enforcement/no enforcement down south will complain about being backed up at the off-ramps. The boys in blue can't win!!!

My suggestion... If you think you can do a better job enforcing the HOV, quit your current job, earn the badge, and put your plan in action. In the meantime, be grateful for the enforcement. You guys say there isn't enough of it as is.





I rarely complain about enforcement. When they have done them in the past traffic was nowhere near this messed up. And yes I have sat on the merge lane at the END of the HOV while they were doing enforcement and it hasn't bothered me one bit.

I think our guys in blue do have a tough job, but all those officers this morning was a bit OVERKILL.


Posted By: EnufisEnuf
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 11:03am
I just sent my email complaint off too asking them to come up w/ a better solution. After all that is what they get paid to do. I know they aren't the brightest bulbs in the package but come on, the HOV has been here long enuf where they can figure this out on their own time and not make us legit commuters suffer!


Posted By: EnufisEnuf
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 11:15am
Curtis Bailey is the public affairs officer and the one they quoted in WTOP. I emailed him. His info is: curtis.bailey@vsp.virginia.gov


Posted By: KCWolfPck
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 11:44am
quote:
Originally posted by EnufisEnuf
[br]curtis.bailey@vsp.virginia.gov




Ok....everybody put this e-mail address in your favorite "free porn daily via e-mail" list. That'll teach him!!! Haha. j/k, of course


Posted By: pbergin
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 11:46am
This is the letter I sent to VDOT, The Washingtonpost, Gov. Warner and the Va State Police:

Although I heartily agree in principal with enforcing HOV restrictions, there must be a better way of doing so without causing over 100,000 people to be late for work. This morning myself, the three other people in the car with me and the 50,000 or so other cars (most of which were carrying a minimum of four people) in the HOV lanes of I-95 were delayed by at least an hour because of HOV enforcement.

I'd like to know how the proceeds from HOV violation tickets reconciles with the hundred thousand or more man-hours lost by this debacle.

Those of us who play by the rules, car or van-pool, use slug lines or drive hybrids should not be penalized for the actions of the relatively few who violate the law. Is there no way to enforce these restrictions other than severely impacting the commutes of law abiding drivers? Especially during a week in which the only alternative transportation system, VRE, was rendered dysfunctional due to track and switch problems. For crying out loud, does no one in your office read the news?

Patrick Bergin
Senior Network Operations Engineer
Highland Technology Services Inc.
202-586-7504


Posted By: jojobean
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 12:22pm
Thanks for the trooper email. I sent off my "note", lets hope others do the same!


Posted By: Paladin
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 12:55pm
If this was the State Police's solution to dealing with HOV violators, then we need some new police. This has to be the most boneheaded thing I've ever seen.

How about posting officers at exits where traffic is slow anyway - and maybe use some technology like a red-light camera? Maybe some really stiff fines would help - like 1 violation = $500, 2nd violation you lose your license for 6 months.



Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 1:31pm
It would have been worth it if I had seen one of the Hybrids without proper credentials pulled over, but I didn't.

I guess I was lucky that it was only backed up to Lorton at 6:30.


Posted By: cdatkins
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 1:48pm
If the law is a problem, it can be changed.

And is it really the law that a person is not violating HOV until they are actually ON HOV? If that was the case, what have the police been doing when they set up their stings on the entrance and exit ramps?

But if the law really is a problem, you can either:

a) make it a violation to be on an HOV entrance ramp in addition to the HOV, or;

b) make a new offense called "Attempted HOV violation" to write for single riders on entrance ramps during HOV hours.


Posted By: carleric
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 2:00pm
I am NOT defending violators, but think about it logically: How can I be convicted of being on the HOV lanes illegally until I am actually ON the HOV lanes?
Granted, it's a very nitpicky (technical legal term) interpretation.

Then again, it is confusing because we have ALL seen on-ramp enforcement. I wonder what gives?


Posted By: Moody Girl
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 2:39pm
If you are on the HOV On-Ramp and you are not driving a Hybrid and do not have 3 people in your vehicle.....you have every intention of breaking the law!

If you are coming off of the HOV lanes and you are not driving a Hybrid and do not have 3 people in your vehicle.....you have broken the law!

I was late to work this morning as well and I agree that enforcement could have been handled differently. However, if you start attacking the methods of the State Police you risk losing their support and the HOV lanes will again become overcrowded with violators.


Posted By: msticaries
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 2:49pm
Look at it this way, every time I want to kill one of my kids, it could be argued that I INTEND to kill them, but until I acutally do. . . thus one must be in the HOV Lanes before being ticketed.


A friend of mind has a hybrid without the clean fuel plates and last week as she was exiting the HOV lanes she was stopped and told to get her plates because they are going to start ticketing the hybrids without clean fuel plates.



Posted By: shahedC
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 2:53pm
msticaries, when the car is entering the ramp, they have no choice but to enter the HOV, they can't back out, right?

If you were going to harm one of your children, hypothetically speaking, it's true that you won't be guilty of anything until you actually do..... but the car analogy would be comparable if you said that you fired a gun at your child, and the bullet was on its way to hitting the person. At that point, you are so far gone, that you already guilty of the crime about to be committed, there's no backing out.

Someone getting on the ramp not only did so with the intention of getting on HOV, but is also unable to go any other place but HOV.

Agreed?


Posted By: msticaries
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 3:02pm
quote:
Originally posted by shahedC
[br]msticaries, when the car is entering the ramp, they have no choice but to enter the HOV, they can't back out, right?

If you were going to harm one of your children, hypothetically speaking, it's true that you won't be guilty of anything until you actually do..... but the car analogy would be comparable if you said that you fired a gun at your child, and the bullet was on its way to hitting the person. At that point, you are so far gone, that you already guilty of the crime about to be committed, there's no backing out.

Someone getting on the ramp not only did so with the intention of getting on HOV, but is also unable to go any other place but HOV.

Agreed?



I can agree. Hmm wonder if it would hold up in Court? Never mind I don't want to test it. :)

I think they should be ticketed entering the HOV just as if they were already in the lanes. I do however think it would be easier to have the officers at the exit ramps all the way down the HOV corridor.

btw, I would never harm any of my children. :)


Posted By: SpotsySlugBug
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 3:09pm
INCREASE THE HOV FINES!!!

1st offense $500 + court costs
2nd offense $1000 + court costs
3rd offense lose license for 2 months + 2 points on driving record

Ok, maybe this is a little extreme, but something needs to change. Obviously some people are willing to risk a $50 ticket for a first offense. There would be a lot less violators if it were $500! Those [:o)] would think twice.



Posted By: koakui
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 3:16pm
Well I got my response to my email. They were pretty quick. Here it is:

Lieutenant Colonel E.A. Stockton, Director of the Bureau of Field Operations for the Virginia State Police asked that I thank you for and respond to your e-mail of August 18, 2005 concerning HOV enforcement.
I regret your displeasure with the State Police regarding HOV enforcement.

Please be assured that it is not the intent of the State Police to impede the flow of traffic, or disrupt the commute for law abiding motorists in the HOV lanes.

In response to growing public complaints and an increased frequency of HOV violations we implemented a program to increase enforcement and visibility on the HOV lanes to address those violators who routinely use the HOV lanes for their commute. This enforcement initiative has been effective, and well received in the Northern Virginia region by motorists who legally utilize the HOV lanes routinely.

I am forwarding a copy of your e-mail to our Division Headquarters in Fairfax to make them aware of your concerns regarding the enforcement methodology utilized to identify violators.

Bud Cox
Business Manager
Virginia State Police
804-674-2127
Bud.Cox@vsp.virginia.gov


Posted By: msticaries
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 3:25pm
quote:
Originally posted by SpotsySlugBug
[br]INCREASE THE HOV FINES!!!

1st offense $500 + court costs
2nd offense $1000 + court costs
3rd offense lose license for 2 months + 2 points on driving record

Ok, maybe this is a little extreme, but something needs to change. Obviously some people are willing to risk a $50 ticket for a first offense. There would be a lot less violators if it were $500! Those [:o)] would think twice.





I believe it's $150 first offense and 2 points on your driving record. :)


Posted By: cedarcitynative
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 3:38pm
quote:
Originally posted by MDC
[br]It would have been worth it if I had seen one of the Hybrids without proper credentials pulled over, but I didn't.

I guess I was lucky that it was only backed up to Lorton at 6:30.



I saw a white 2005 Prius without CF/CX plates pulled over just south of Springfield this morning. Oops, it made me smile!


Posted By: avalanche22
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 3:41pm
I would love to see that. You should of asked somebody to take a picture. Digit camera, picture phone something. That would of been priceless. lol....


Posted By: cedarcitynative
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 3:42pm
quote:
Originally posted by koakui
[br]Well I got my response to my email. They were pretty quick. Here it is:

Lieutenant Colonel E.A. Stockton, Director of the Bureau of Field Operations for the Virginia State Police asked that I thank you for and respond to your e-mail of August 18, 2005 concerning HOV enforcement.
I regret your displeasure with the State Police regarding HOV enforcement.

Please be assured that it is not the intent of the State Police to impede the flow of traffic, or disrupt the commute for law abiding motorists in the HOV lanes.

In response to growing public complaints and an increased frequency of HOV violations we implemented a program to increase enforcement and visibility on the HOV lanes to address those violators who routinely use the HOV lanes for their commute. This enforcement initiative has been effective, and well received in the Northern Virginia region by motorists who legally utilize the HOV lanes routinely.

I am forwarding a copy of your e-mail to our Division Headquarters in Fairfax to make them aware of your concerns regarding the enforcement methodology utilized to identify violators.

Bud Cox
Business Manager
Virginia State Police
804-674-2127
Bud.Cox@vsp.virginia.gov




What enforcement initiative is he referring to: causing 8 mile backups which brought this morning's commute to a standstill and cost businesses $1,000s in lost productivity. Certainly not something, I, as a commuter, would laud them for.


Posted By: EnufisEnuf
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 3:54pm
You got that right. We should ask good ole Bud what he is talking about. I bet its some pre-done response to this morning's problem. I bet a lot of us complained. I might send Bud an email asking him what initiatives the public is supporting. lol


Posted By: cdatkins
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 4:15pm
They should simply change the law to say that the entrance ramps are, actually, the HOV lanes. Then they can enfore on the entrance ramps.

But I find it hard to believe the statute wasn't written to include attempted HOV violation, which a person would be guilty of if they were on an enclosed, one way entrance ramp without 3 riders or the requisite hybrid plates.


Posted By: 122582
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 4:23pm
So do you want enforcement or not?

Cops were just trying to do a job. Maybe they didn't do so well this morning, but law enforcement just doesn't attract rocket scientists.



Posted By: EnufisEnuf
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 4:38pm
I agree with you cdatkins. They should change it. There was no reason for what happened today. 122 has a point though, the boys in blue aren't the smartest bunch and I think he would know!


Posted By: SpotsySlugBug
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 4:41pm
Msti, I don't think so, I checked the VDOT website. [;)]



Posted By: Moody Girl
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 5:01pm
quote:
Originally posted by msticaries
[br]Look at it this way, every time I want to kill one of my kids, it could be argued that I INTEND to kill them, but until I acutally do. . . thus one must be in the HOV Lanes before being ticketed.










Nice analogy...and to be quite honest, a little scary.[B)]

ShahedC seems to understand exactly what I was saying. Once you hit those ramps you have no choice but to enter the HOV lanes and therefore you ARE in violation.



Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 7:05am
Local TV news gave yesteray's I-95 HOV enforcement & backup a lot of coverage last night. HOV's becoming famous! [;)]

Keep on sluggin'! [:)]


Posted By: msticaries
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 7:53am
Spotsy, you checked the VDOT website re: fines?

Moody: If you have kids tell me you have NEVER once thought of killing the little boogers. not that I ever would. :)


Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 8:04am

Article on yesterday's fiasco in the Fredericksburg paper (Friday)

http://www.fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2005/082005/08192005/123296


Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 8:34am
A poll ....

[?] With all this publicity on enforcement, do you think the number of violators will drop significantly? [?]

[^] In our commute from Burke this morning we didn't see a single violator between the VA644 on-ramp and the P'gon. [^]

[:)] Keep on sluggin'! [:)]


Posted By: Lone Wolf
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 9:30am
OK, so can you stand a post from a biker who regularly runs HOV from Stafford? I (thankfully) opted to run the mainline yesterday morning. Turned out to be a good idea. I felt for all of the bikers trapped in the HOV lanes, sidled along the shoulder letting their scoots cool. Ridiculous.
Personally, I would like to see lane splitting legalized on HOV. Similar accommodations are in place in California. For certain you can count on this happening the next time the State Police resort to such buffoonery. (The old 'fool me once' addage comes to mind here.)Course, if similar enrcement strategies are utilized beyond next July 1, we all may not even notice.
Ride on.


Posted By: VA4ver
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 9:30am
The radio said they ticketed 52 cars. Today I saw two more.


Posted By: 122582
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 9:44am
Hey Wolf,
You ever tried lane splitting in CA? I really had to watch peoples mirrors - they would open doors on you just to be butt heads.

Legalizing riding the shoulders might be safer.


Posted By: Lone Wolf
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 10:25am
Yes. On a visit to a friend's place in Sacremento few years ago. The experience WAS nerve wracking. Certainly shoulders would be preferable.


Posted By: SpotsySlugBug
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 10:47am
Msti -- yes, regarding the fines. maybe their website needs to be updated....or maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part... [;)]

quote:
Originally posted by msticaries
[br]Spotsy, you checked the VDOT website re: fines?

Moody: If you have kids tell me you have NEVER once thought of killing the little boogers. not that I ever would. :)



Posted By: carleric
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 11:13am
Forgive my non-biker ignorance, but what is lane splitting? I know what I think it sounds like, but I think I'm better served by actually asking people with knowledge... :)


Posted By: RCA
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 11:16am
Considering I saw at least 4 violators drive smooth past the police picnic - I'd say the strategy was flawed. I saw more officers waiving signs and laughing with each other than observing the lanes. I even saw a motorcycle cop on the left shoulder flying past traffic with siren blazing JUST TO GET TO THE PICNIC that his fellow officers were so graciously holding. Now, I'm not saying it's the indians fault for doing what the chiefs order them to do - and I'm not saying that HOV enforcement is a bad thing...but when you gridlock a 10 mile stretch of highway simply because your plan of execution was flawed I do have a problem.

I read on a previous post that Officers can't pull over drivers on "on ramps" that is wrong. That would be like saying "I saw the guy jimmy the lock and get in the car, but he never actually drove away in it" or " I saw the guy walk into the bank with a handgun but he didn't attempt to rob anyone"...Does that mean all those folks I see everyday pulled over on the Woodbridge HOV exit shouldn't be allowed to be ticketed - I mean TECHNICALLY they are not on the HOV anymore...

If there are cars entering the HOV without 3 riders - and you can't ticket them - the least you could do is SERVE THEM a plate of information and PROTECT them from violating the law - but TURNING THEM AROUND...or make them sit there until traffic is free and clear and they can back out.

Either way - locking up the HOV at that over-pass.......priceless.


Posted By: RCA
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 11:23am
quote:
Originally posted by shahedC
[br]msticaries, when the car is entering the ramp, they have no choice but to enter the HOV, they can't back out, right?

If you were going to harm one of your children, hypothetically speaking, it's true that you won't be guilty of anything until you actually do..... but the car analogy would be comparable if you said that you fired a gun at your child, and the bullet was on its way to hitting the person. At that point, you are so far gone, that you already guilty of the crime about to be committed, there's no backing out.

Are you kidding me? No pun intended. There is a thing called "Conspiracy to Commit" and people are prosecuted with it ALL THE TIME!

Someone getting on the ramp not only did so with the intention of getting on HOV, but is also unable to go any other place but HOV.

Agreed?



Posted By: Lone Wolf
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 11:24am
Cal,
Lane splitting is where motorcycles may ride on the staggered white line separating two lanes of same directional travel, between automobiles, both when traffic is moving at less than expressway speed and when stopped. It is an allowable practice in CA.

lw....Ride on


Posted By: SpotsySlugBug
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 11:29am
There was a a blatantly obvious violator this morning to our right and a state police car was 2 cars behind us. When the violator got off at Springfield, do you think he pulled her over? NO. grrr


Posted By: VA4ver
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 12:07pm
Lane splitting is stupid. Cycles should follow the same rules as other vehicles. If you ride a cycle you choose to sit with your two feet planted on the pavement when traffic is stopped.


Posted By: carleric
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 12:08pm
LW - Thanks for the info. That sounds like potentially incredibly dangerous for the guys (and gals, of course) on the bikes.....


Posted By: vabigblue
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 12:11pm
Lane splitting is common in the United Kingdom. When I was stationed there, that's all you saw going in and coming out of London. I mean cyclists would be lined up behind each other between 2-3 lanes of traffic.


Posted By: Lone Wolf
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 12:24pm
VA4ver....
Interestingly, I happened upon a govt sponsored link this morning that substantiated the allowance for motorcycles in the HOV lanes by suggesting the fact that two wheeled vehicles are safer when they are *rolling*. Hmmmm... I'll buy that.

And so, as the traffic in this area grows to the point that things come to a California-type standstill, well, I'll let your imagination take it from there.

lw - Ride on


Posted By: VA4ver
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 12:36pm
Safe when moving only because you are exposed -- it's your skin and the pavement. It's your choice on the mode of transportation but the same rules apply.

You are probably one of the responsible cyclists out there, but give those fools who ride those made-for-speed cycles the ability to lane split, and see what happens. We would have the fools zipping this way and that.

Of course, this is off the subject of why the police were out in such force (and it wasn't the end of the month) and how they could do it better to prevent a tie up.


Posted By: SlugR
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 12:52pm
Enforcement objective = good; execution = bad. Let's say, for argument's sake, that 50,000 people were 1 hour late yesterday from this enforcement. At an average of $30/hr salary means $1.5M in lost productivity. There were about 52 violators caught; so, even at $1000 per violator, the fines collected would be $52,000. Subtract from that the additional law enforcement costs and it's a no-brainer that this action cost the area much more than it gained. There may be long-term benefits if the number of violators goes down, but it will take a long time to recover what was lost.

Random enforcement at exits--including north of 495--seems to be a better way to catch violators.


Posted By: Max_28756
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 1:39pm
Did anyone ever think the police might have used the HOV enforcement as a cover for other motives? Maybe they were looking for someone and for legal reasons had to stop everyone so the person they were looking for couldn't cry they were singled out by the police with profiling. There may just be some things the police were aware of that morning that we don't know about. Food for thought.


Posted By: Lone Wolf
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 2:19pm
VA4ver....
Agreed. The pinheads sporting the latest Power Ranger chic on board the Japanese crotch rockets scare the he!! out of me as well. Though in the minority, these riders have been fairly successful at trashing the the image of the typical biker/rider. These guys would be killed off in no time were lane splitting leagalized.
But I digress. Apologies to all for the temporary hijack/sidebar to the thread.

Max...
Excellent observation. Recall the effort to hunt for the 'DC Snipers'?


Posted By: jerryclapham
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 3:23pm
Back to the topic of enforcement. THe State Police have been ticketing violators as they come down the ramps at Horner Rd (Prince William Parkway) and Dale Blvd. So I don't understand it why all of a sudden the ramps are not part of the HOV lanes. Where do the Lanes begin and end. This had to be a lawyer who came up with this. (No offense to Slugging lawyers) The Fairfax State Police and the Prince William State Police should coordinate a crack down on the entrance ramps. If the ramps are not considered HOV lanes, than give the drive a ticket for backing up on an entrance ramp and reckless driving.

I do know of one State Trooper who was working the ramp at Dale Blvd when a violator spotted the Troopers she backed up on the ramp and then got on the regular lanes. The Trooper climbed over the Jersey wall and pull the person over and gave her three ticket - HOV, reckless driving and backing up. We need more aggressive enforcement like that.


Jerry


Posted By: P8R10TZ
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2005 at 1:12pm
Wow, Jerry...

I saw that woman do that as well. I didn't realize she got ticketed for that. I salute that Trooper.


Posted By: EnufisEnuf
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2005 at 4:25pm
Yep, she did it again. She made me believe we were more than just friends! Oh baby! Let's slug baby!



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