KATRINA'S IMPACT
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Topic: KATRINA'S IMPACT
Posted By: flatulentsluggerhugger
Subject: KATRINA'S IMPACT
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2005 at 11:29am
Experts: $4 a gallon gas coming soon
Pricing analysts say consumers can expect even higher prices at the pump.
August 31, 2005: 11:18 AM EDT
By Grace Wong, CNN/Money staff writer
$4 gasoline coming
NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Consumers can expect retail gas prices to rise to $4 a gallon soon but whether they stay there depends on the long-term damage to oil facilities from Hurricane Katrina, oil and gas analysts said Wednesday.
"There's no question gas will hit $4 a gallon," Ben Brockwell, director of pricing at the Oil Price Information Service, said. "The question is how high will it go and how long will it last?"
OPIS tracks wholesale and retail oil prices and provides pricing information for AAA's daily reports on fuel prices.
Brockwell said with gasoline prices now exceeding $3 a gallon before even reaching the wholesale level, it "doesn't take a genius" to expect retail prices to hit $4 a gallon soon.
"Consumers haven't seen the worst of it yet," Brockwell said.
He expects consumers in the Southeast and Northeast to be pinched first, following the impact of Hurricane Katrina on the Gulf Coast region.
Katrina forced operators to close more than a tenth of the country's refining capacity and a quarter of its oil production, which sent gasoline prices surging.
"With this kind of hiccup in refinery capacity, in stretched markets like California, you could see over $4 a gallon in gas," Evan Smith, an analyst at U.S. Global Investors, told CNN/Money.
While it's still too early to fully assess the damage caused by Katrina, efforts to build up inventories of crude oil, natural gas and other products like gasoline will be set back by the storm, according to Nariman Behravesh, chief economist at Global Insight.
In a research note, Behravesh laid out a worst-case scenario that puts average prices for regular unleaded gasoline at about $3.50 a gallon for the next four to six months.
"The impact on consumer spending in such a scenario would be very dramatic, cutting the growth rate by as much as 3 percent and pushing real GDP growth in the fourth quarter closer to zero," he wrote.
In a best-case scenario, he forecast retail pump prices to peak at $3 a gallon for a couple of months, but then fall back to around $2.50 by year-end.
The nationwide average price for a gallon of regular unleaded hit a fresh high of $2.619 Wednesday, according to AAA, the largest U.S. motorist organization, formerly known as the American Automobile Association.
Average gasoline prices have gained 40 percent in the last year.
Prices for crude oil are also up sharply and are currently hovering near record highs just under $70 a barrel.
VOTE HOT!!!! SO GAS PASSERS LIKE ME WON'T ANNOY YOU!!!
whoever smealt it dealt it!!!!
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Replies:
Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2005 at 12:13pm
Hey Flatu ...
Are you ready to be "pinched"? [}:)]
Might feel rally good -- depending on who's doing the pinching and what they pinch! [;)]
Keep on sluggin'! [:D]
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Posted By: flatulentsluggerhugger
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2005 at 12:43pm
My advice is to go buy gas tonight before the prices go up in a couple of days even if you only have half a tank it's worth it.
VOTE HOT!!!! SO GAS PASSERS LIKE ME WON'T ANNOY YOU!!!
whoever smealt it dealt it!!!!
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2005 at 1:35pm
http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/altfuel/ethanol.html
Would this qualify me for the HOV exemption? Ok, bogus question since the anwer's already embedded in the article.
Serious question: Why have we, as Americans, not pushed our government representatives towards this as a proven means to 1. reduce dependence on oil (foreign and domestic), 2. reduce emissions, and 3. support farmers who are already receiving subsidies to NOT grow crops that could be used to produce ethanol?
I would assert one thing: big oil. Now, who owns stock in the oil companies and whose trust funds are loving the price runups. Don't just go to the guy at the top of the heap, look at all your representation starting at the lowest levels on up.
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: getmehome pweeze
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2005 at 2:01pm
Our president has his and his daddy's greedy little paws in private oil, didnt ANYONE see Farenheight 9/11!!??? HE should be the one to get off his took-ASS and do SOMETHING for us,, instead of answering a question with a non sensical mumble and playing cowboy down in Texas
(sorry...pissed off at all this crap...)
:'}
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Posted By: avalanche22
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2005 at 2:04pm
100% agree with you Getmehome pweeze.
FYI: It wasn't me who voted him back in office. Another what 3 years of this crap.
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Posted By: cdatkins
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2005 at 2:21pm
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Wow. Blaming President Bush for hurricane-induced damage to our nation's oil and gas infrastructure. Congratulations on sinking to a new low.
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Posted By: avalanche22
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2005 at 2:27pm
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LOL. New Low. That's funny. I guess the increase in gas prices before the hurricane just happen on it's on. Yeah RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Posted By: avalanche22
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2005 at 2:27pm
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LOL. New Low. That's funny. I guess the increase in gas prices before the hurricane just happen on it's on. Yeah RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Posted By: getmehome pweeze
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2005 at 2:28pm
must be a Republican. NO- actually I was commenting on Nosb's comments. In case you hadnt noticed, gas prices have been going up, before the hurricane-induced damage.
BTW- I am not getting into an argument with anyone about this, so bash me for my opinion if you want, but its just that,an opinion. Remember the saying.. "opinions are like.." nevermind.
:'}
FYI- I DIDNT vote that "Man" (ha!) back into another four years of doing a bad job either.
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Posted By: KCWolfPck
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2005 at 2:32pm
quote:
Originally posted by getmehome pweeze
[br]Our president has his and his daddy's greedy little paws in private oil, didnt ANYONE see Farenheight 9/11!!??? HE should be the one to get off his took-ASS and do SOMETHING for us,, instead of answering a question with a non sensical mumble and playing cowboy down in Texas
(sorry...pissed off at all this crap...)
:'}
Actually, he did. Today he released some of the national reserve. The result pushed gas prices downward.
Now, thank your President and qwit yer bitchin'!!
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Posted By: avalanche22
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2005 at 2:38pm
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LOL... I guess it take a natural disaster before he would consider releasing some of the national reserves. But this topic is a stall mate.
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Posted By: cdatkins
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2005 at 2:39pm
quote:
Originally posted by avalanche22
[br]LOL. New Low. That's funny. I guess the increase in gas prices before the hurricane just happen on it's on. Yeah RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The pre-hurricane increase was largely due to a run-up in demand (largely due to China) and a supply capacity unable to meet this demand because of a lack of refining capacity.
For the record, the recent energy bill is a boondoggle and will do nothing to address the needed supply of oil.
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Posted By: flatulentsluggerhugger
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2005 at 2:45pm
Just because some oil is being tapped from the National Reserve DON'T expect prices to drop soon or alot.
ALSO, I DOESN'T MATTER WHO YOU VOTE FOR!!!!!!!! BIG BUSINESS REALLY RUNS THE COUNTRY FROM BEHIND THE SCENES!!!!!!! IF YOU FEEL THAT POLITICIANS ARE CROOKED(understatement of the year!!!!) THEN RUN FOR OFFICE!!!!!!!!!
VOTE HOT!!!! SO GAS PASSERS LIKE ME WON'T ANNOY YOU!!!
whoever smealt it dealt it!!!!
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Posted By: Dhacim
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2005 at 3:13pm
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Why would they? This is all a price gaulging ploy to get everyone used to paying exorbitant prices for gas so that when they drop it to $2.10 we feel like we are getting a bargain....
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Posted By: stewart
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2005 at 3:31pm
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I feel like I've got to step in to the debate here. I work for a certain segment of the petroleum industry. Releasing the SPR won't help us much because it is crude oil that still needs to be refined--and we get our refined product here from the gulf. It will help ease the shortages in the midwest since they have their own refineries. Also, although there are certain a**holes who have a certain place in hell, most of the gas station owners are not gouging. If they had product delivered last night, they most likely paid .30 cents more per gallon and are only passing along their costs. For today, if anyone is charging more than $3/gallon for regular, pass them by because they are gouging, but don't be surprised if that is "cheap" by Monday. If you need to direct your anger at anyone, the large refineries are the guys making the big bucks (although not now or for the forseeable future.) Also....a heads up....shortages are coming to Virginia fast. South Carolina has over 200 stations that have run out of product and Tennessee and at least double that many. The problem is quickly spreading northward...Virginia stations are already on strict allocations so it is predicted that some stations in the area will run out by Monday. Enjoy....
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Posted By: Route 17 Slugger
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2005 at 3:50pm
No, some of us just take the time to know what's really going on. The Bush family values...just can't sink any lower....oil, crony capitalism and economic top 1% of Americans! yee haw!
My bad! My NY roots are showing! [:X]
quote:
Originally posted by cdatkins
[br]Wow. Blaming President Bush for hurricane-induced damage to our nation's oil and gas infrastructure. Congratulations on sinking to a new low.
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2005 at 4:03pm
Stewart!
Great post. I agree that there are segments of the supply chain who are not gouging. Other points made above are somewhat relevant. It really doesn't matter if it's Repub, Dem, Indy, Libertarian, Bush 2, Kerry, Gore, Bush 1, Reagon, Johnson, Nixon, pick your flavor...it is about big companies. We as free choosing Americans need to think on our own (stop watching CNN/Fox) and think this through. We can CHOOSE other fuels which are proven and available. There are oil-producing countries using a 75% mix of ethanol with their petroleum-based fuel. Why? Because some people care about the environment I guess (I haven't found out why they use ethanol over their own home-grown oil). I think they're just downright smart.
We could have ethanol available, if we created the demand for it. It could be more affordable, if we created the demand for it. Our environment could be cleaner, if we created the demand for it.
Of course, it still wouldn't relieve the congestion, but maybe high gasoline prices will solve that side of the equation.
OH, I'm going to the gas station with all my fuel cans tonight to stock up! Hoarding isn't hoarding at this point is it?
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: stewart
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2005 at 4:23pm
Wow...a newbie gets a compliment from an advanced member! :-)
The only problem with ethanol is the distribution of it. For instance, one reason Democratic Senators like California's Boxer and Feinstein are against mandating ethanol use is because it will cost an arm and a leg to get it over the Rockies to their state. No doubt ethanol and biodiesel are coming, just need some kinks in the distribution chain worked out.
Oops... and I was wrong about some parts of the SPR. Refineries in Texas are up and running and we do get some supply from them. Still...be wise and fill up sooner rather than later. Tennessee just reported more than 400 stations without product. Ouch!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2005 at 4:37pm
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A lot of this is about supply and demand. Much of the Energy Bill and our current crisis seems to be around the supply side. What has been missing is doing more about the demand side. Best way to help that in our area is ban all vehicles except busses and hybrids from Express (HOV) lanes. As soon as we get enough people with the more fuel efficient cars to clog the Express lanes, go back to HOV. Guarantee you that we will have a tremendous effect in our local area on the oil demand.
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Posted By: Route 17 Slugger
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2005 at 4:44pm
Thanks for the information Stewart.
I can choose where I spend my money, like, I don't shop at WalFart, etc. Because of my job, I am aware of the legal protections that are afforded to oil companies that believe it or not, other corporations can only wish they had. Its all about the corporations and the mighty dollar, not you and I my friend or our precious environment. I agree, ethanol is a perfect example of alternative fuel. You hit the nail on the head. They are smart. They educate themselves on the issues.
quote:
Originally posted by N_or_S_bound
[br]Stewart!
Great post. I agree that there are segments of the supply chain who are not gouging. Other points made above are somewhat relevant. It really doesn't matter if it's Repub, Dem, Indy, Libertarian, Bush 2, Kerry, Gore, Bush 1, Reagon, Johnson, Nixon, pick your flavor...it is about big companies. We as free choosing Americans need to think on our own (stop watching CNN/Fox) and think this through. We can CHOOSE other fuels which are proven and available. There are oil-producing countries using a 75% mix of ethanol with their petroleum-based fuel. Why? Because some people care about the environment I guess (I haven't found out why they use ethanol over their own home-grown oil). I think they're just downright smart.
We could have ethanol available, if we created the demand for it. It could be more affordable, if we created the demand for it. Our environment could be cleaner, if we created the demand for it.
Of course, it still wouldn't relieve the congestion, but maybe high gasoline prices will solve that side of the equation.
OH, I'm going to the gas station with all my fuel cans tonight to stock up! Hoarding isn't hoarding at this point is it?
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2005 at 4:50pm
Stewart,
I don't judge by the number of stars, it's the quality of the post that counts. There's some "big star" folks who post buffoonery. There's some "no star" folks who do likewise.
Best to recognize a good quality post when there is one. Of course, that's me determining what I consider a "good quality post"....could be danger in taking my kudo too seriously...
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: getmehome pweeze
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 7:24am
Where you from Rt17?? I'm from LI!! Miss it, but love VA!! (except the pizza...)Gas was 2.99 for mid grade this morning- YECK!!!
:'}
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Posted By: flatulentsluggerhugger
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 8:37am
Stewart is correct. Gas station owners are raising their rates because they have to. They get their shipment in and it cost $.30 to $.40 cents more and they pass it off to us. It's not their fault. They get their instructions from the big oil companies. Since 90% of our supply comes from LA and MS we're really in for the long run. Gas stations only make a few cents on the dollar as profit from gasoline(less than $.10 to be exact)
I went out to get gas for the first time in a month last night and the lines are starting to form.
MY ADVICE, GET YOUR GAS TONIGHT BECAUSE THE LINES WILL REALLY START THIS WEEKEND!!!!!
VOTE HOT!!!! SO GAS PASSERS LIKE ME WON'T ANNOY YOU!!!
whoever smealt it dealt it!!!!
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Posted By: Moody Girl
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 10:37am
The increase in gas prices around here is a small price to pay considering all that our southern states have lost! [:(!] Or is everyone on this post so consumed with themselves that it really doesn't matter that there is a much bigger picture here?
These people have lost everything! Need I remind you, they have no cars to fill up with gas (not that they have any gas!), no homes, no clothes, no food, no clean water. They have lost everything they own and many of them have lost their lives. [V]
This was a catastrophic weather event and as much as you would like to blame the President, Mother Nature is the only one to blame. [:(]
So instead of feeling sorry for yourselves because you have to pay more at the pump. Go to your local grocery store, purchase some canned goods and bottled water and drive to the Donation Center in the Four-Mile Fork shopping center on Friday and do something positive. You never know, it might put things in perspective for you.
As far as saving money on fuel goes, pick up a couple of board games, a deck of cards, a few movies and some snacks and spend some quality time at home with your family this weekend. Nothing is more important than family. [:)]
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Posted By: Route 17 Slugger
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 11:15am
getmehome pweeze, SI (Dongan Hills area)! I miss it too but VA is great! Not for nothing, the pizza stinks. The mozzarella is not fresh and the sauce is not sauce! That's a whole other story...boy what I would be willing to pay for a decent pie....lol
Moody Girl, I am sure most if not all that post here have made donations to the relief efforts. Even though a few here seem to be so self absorbed, I think all of us here have compassion for those surrounded/affected by all the devastation and chaos.
Who knows, maybe we can talk 122582 into donating his $3 score from this morning....turd
quote:
Originally posted by getmehome pweeze
[br]Where you from Rt17?? I'm from LI!! Miss it, but love VA!! (except the pizza...)Gas was 2.99 for mid grade this morning- YECK!!!
:'}
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 11:29am
MG,
On the lighter side of things: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9156603/ They might get some quality time on one of these.
More seriously, yes, it's a tragic thing that's happened. Now the question is how to help them. We can buy a couple items and drive (burning fuel) down to some dropoff point and assuage our feelings. Or we could just cut a check or make a donation online (no gasoline burned here). But really to truly empathize with them involvement at a deeper level is necessary. Most suggestions in the media are for monetary donations. Some people have to respond physically. Whatever, one needs to be moved to compassion.
Now, as to this thread which is labelled "Katrina's Impact", how about the impact to the functions of the nation. This is going to have what looks to be a pretty significant effect on our immediate way of life, the economy will be influenced, your tax dollars will be spent, gas will be more expensive and potentially less available, material good transhipment will touch just about everyone to some extent.
The question would be: what do we do to minimize the overall impact now and plan for distributing future impacts due to events of this nature. This has tremendous potential to influence the global economy in addition to our own. The ripples will be felt on a larger scale, even though less severely than those in the LA/MS areas. What changes do you and I need to make in our life to reduce our consumption of items that may be in limited supply in the near future.
Or do we all just go about our daily lives as though nothing like this will ever happen again?
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: getmehome pweeze
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 11:58am
How cool!! Suffolk County!! Im goin home next weekend for a Christening, Tony's Pizza, Rt.112, how much ya got for a pie? Yes, we call them Pie's in the north!! ha..any who-
I donated to Petsmart, I forgot that not just people need help from this tragedy, but our 4 legged friends, if we dont take care of them who will?
(sorry for going off topic)
:'}
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Posted By: Dhacim
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 12:05pm
quote:
Originally posted by stewart
[br]Wow...a newbie gets a compliment from an advanced member! :-)
The only problem with ethanol is the distribution of it. For instance, one reason Democratic Senators like California's Boxer and Feinstein are against mandating ethanol use is because it will cost an arm and a leg to get it over the Rockies to their state. No doubt ethanol and biodiesel are coming, just need some kinks in the distribution chain worked out.
Oops... and I was wrong about some parts of the SPR. Refineries in Texas are up and running and we do get some supply from them. Still...be wise and fill up sooner rather than later. Tennessee just reported more than 400 stations without product. Ouch!
Would not be a problem here in VA. I used to work at the Bowman liquor factory in my teens. My entire duties consisted of filling 55 gallon drums with pure ethanol (98.6% alcohol) for export to Russia.
For those of you that do not know, Bowmans is located on Route 2 in Fredericksburg. BTW for those of you filling gas cans, keep in mind you are creating a false demand and only helping to drive the prices further north. "Fear and Consumption" this is a case of that, plain as day.
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Posted By: getmehome pweeze
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 12:07pm
I agree Dhacim, I saw a man a wawa last night filling up about a dozen of those plastic gas cans, and piling them into the back of his minivan, kind of dangerous too!
:'}
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Posted By: Dhacim
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 12:07pm
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BTW, All 2005 model Ford Explorer's come standard equipped with flexible fuel engines that allow them to run on ethanol. If you work at the Pentagon and drive an Explorer, you may want to check out the Citgo by the Navy exchange. They sell ethanol.
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Posted By: cdatkins
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 12:28pm
quote:
Originally posted by Route 17 Slugger
[br]No, some of us just take the time to know what's really going on. The Bush family values...just can't sink any lower....oil, crony capitalism and economic top 1% of Americans! yee haw!
My bad! My NY roots are showing! [:X]
quote:
Originally posted by cdatkins
[br]Wow. Blaming President Bush for hurricane-induced damage to our nation's oil and gas infrastructure. Congratulations on sinking to a new low.
Then I can't wait to see your evidence for your assertions. I'll wait.
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 12:31pm
dhacim,
Is that E10 or E85? For both the Explorer and what they sell at the NEX Citgo.
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 12:50pm
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It was my understanding that "flexible fuel vehicles" are not eligible for clean fuel plates in VA. Reason is there is no way to enforce usage of anything other than gasoline.
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Posted By: Dhacim
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 1:07pm
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N or S Bound....E85 for both, and Bob you are indeed correct, because FFV run on any combination of gasoline and clean fuel.
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 1:12pm
Bob, you are most astute! You've brought to the forefront the very issue which does show that our state legislature doesn't really have "best interests" at heart unless it's their own pockets being lined for their next election opportunity.
If CF plates mean "clean fuel", shouldn't the fuel that powers the vehicle be CLEANER than the predominant vehicles in use?
Yes, I understand FFVs burn both gasoline and ethanol (E85 which is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline). But what do the hybrids burn when the HOV is running free and clear?
Then of course, diesels can burn both diesel and biodiesel. How is one to know if the "cleaner" fuel is being used?
Ok, at highway speed we've already ascertained that hybrid gas-electrics are running solely on gas, so we know there is no benefit from them there as to CF criteria. At highway speeds (e.g. HOV lanes) for FFVs or diesels, the possibility of them burning a clean fuel is still existent.
Question: why do VA legislators allow hybrid gas-electrics in the HOV?
Doesn't take a genius to see this one, even from miles away, eh?
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 1:59pm
quote:
Originally posted by N_or_S_bound
[br]Bob, you are most astute! You've brought to the forefront the very issue which does show that our state legislature doesn't really have "best interests" at heart unless it's their own pockets being lined for their next election opportunity.
If CF plates mean "clean fuel", shouldn't the fuel that powers the vehicle be CLEANER than the predominant vehicles in use?
Yes, I understand FFVs burn both gasoline and ethanol (E85 which is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline). But what do the hybrids burn when the HOV is running free and clear?
Then of course, diesels can burn both diesel and biodiesel. How is one to know if the "cleaner" fuel is being used?
Ok, at highway speed we've already ascertained that hybrid gas-electrics are running solely on gas, so we know there is no benefit from them there as to CF criteria. At highway speeds (e.g. HOV lanes) for FFVs or diesels, the possibility of them burning a clean fuel is still existent.
Question: why do VA legislators allow hybrid gas-electrics in the HOV?
Doesn't take a genius to see this one, even from miles away, eh?
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
NoSb - actually, you have errors with your facts. You are wrong in your assumption that at highway speeds, hybrids provide no benefit. The only way your statement would be accurate is if there was always increasing accelleration. During times of reduced accelleration (taking your foot off the gas pedal), the hybrid battery is charged, which is why at lower speeds, you don't need to use gas.
Thank goodness the VA legislature is smarter than you!
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 2:04pm
All vehicles run "cleaner" (e.g. burn less fuel) when we take our foot off the gas pedal. That fact is accurate.
Yeah, VA legislature smarter than me. Never disputed that, they get paid for selling their opinions as facts, I only submit mine for free for consideration of the educated among us.
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 2:05pm
quote:
Originally posted by N_or_S_bound
[br]All vehicles run "cleaner" (e.g. burn less fuel) when we take our foot off the gas pedal. That fact is accurate.
But not all vehicles charge the battery to the point where the battery can move the vehicle without using gas. Sheesh.
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 2:10pm
Ok, this wasn't about bashing hybrids, hybrids only offered the "grounding point" from which to compare to truly beneficial alternatives in a lot more aspects.
Sorry you took it as hybrid bashing, that was not the intent. The real fact is that other true alternatives offer more promise on many fronts (2 I know of, reduced dependence on oil and cleaner environment) yet don't receive their just consideration before our "representatives".
What we get is vocational politicos, bought and paid for by big business, with little regard for where the true problems lay.
Take an objective stance please: hybrids aren't "bad" per se, other alternatives appear better, but don't get the support.
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 2:20pm
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NoSb: I agree with both - hybrids aren't bad, and they aren't the total solution. For right now, they are better than conventional vehicles, and unless the government helps to mandate elimination of conventional vehicles, folks aren't going to want to pay the initial higher cost of thes better vehicles. There was a thread a few months ago proclaiming that you'd never get your money's worth from a hybrid. Maybe not, but we MUST reduce demand for gas. And hybrids do that.
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 2:24pm
Agreed!
I'm just hoping this time around we can learn from this dependence on a non-renewable source that is predominantly coming from people who really don't care very much for us. We forgot the 70s, let's see what happens here.
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 2:55pm
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I thought this was a discussion about gasoline? Hybrids burn the same gasoline as 99% of the other cars use. That is a fact. Hybrids do not, on the other hand, burn "clean fuel". Another fact.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 4:02pm
quote:
Originally posted by MDC
[br]I thought this was a discussion about gasoline? Hybrids burn the same gasoline as 99% of the other cars use. That is a fact. Hybrids do not, on the other hand, burn "clean fuel". Another fact.
And hybrids burn LESS gas than 99% of the other cars. And when powered by battery, they "burn" clean fuel.
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Posted By: Route 17 Slugger
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 4:55pm
cdadkins, Assertions??? You might want to do some research on the toxic Texan's many misleading and outright FALSE assertions and disastrous policies. Were you holding your breath for an explanation for those too? Didn't think so. This Administration does not enforce environmental laws that are in place. The energy bill that took 5 years to put together is a complete joke. Take a look at current and recent environmental legislatation do you purchase gas from ExxonMobil? sheesh. EDUCATE YOURSELF. Ask questions. Read a book or surf the web and read an article now and then. My assertions are based upon facts and from those facts I came to conclusions.
N_or_S_bound you are a kindred spirit to me. Thanks for your great posts.
Then I can't wait to see your evidence for your assertions. I'll wait.
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2005 at 5:48pm
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Ok then. Disable the gas motor on a hybrid and be clean all you want.
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2005 at 5:37am
Has anybody considered the last 10 days run-up in gas prices might be due to Labor Day opportunism instead of Katrina which could be a good excuse to "gouge" the public over one of the most heavily gas-consuming holidays?
I don't deny what happened in the Gulf. I just question the impact at this point. How do they really know production and distribution have been so heavily impacted.
I know there's folks familiar with the oil biz who read this site who might offer a more educated input than my suppositions.
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2005 at 7:46am
quote:
Originally posted by MDC
[br]Ok then. Disable the gas motor on a hybrid and be clean all you want.
MDC - I gather you said that tongue in cheek, or else you are an idiot. The gas motor is needed to charge the battery. I tried to not use the gas motor once when I ran out of gas - the hybrid was only good for about 2 miles before it conked out. After waiting 10 min, I was able to get it the extra 1/4 mile to the gas station.
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2005 at 8:08am
MDC,
That's cool. Are you able to do grocery shopping, etc locally on just battery power? Kind of like a segway?
Rte 17- Thanks for the affirmation. Knowing theirs "like minds" out there is good, but the best interactions are with ones who don't believe YET!
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: stewart
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2005 at 10:21am
quote:
Originally posted by Route 17 Slugger
[br]cdadkins, Assertions??? You might want to do some research on the toxic Texan's many misleading and outright FALSE assertions and disastrous policies. Were you holding your breath for an explanation for those too? Didn't think so. This Administration does not enforce environmental laws that are in place. The energy bill that took 5 years to put together is a complete joke. Take a look at current and recent environmental legislatation do you purchase gas from ExxonMobil? sheesh. EDUCATE YOURSELF. Ask questions. Read a book or surf the web and read an article now and then. My assertions are based upon facts and from those facts I came to conclusions.
N_or_S_bound you are a kindred spirit to me. Thanks for your great posts.
Then I can't wait to see your evidence for your assertions. I'll wait.
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Posted By: stewart
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2005 at 10:32am
Originally posted by stewart
[br]Originally posted by Route 17 Slugger
[br]cdadkins, Assertions??? You might want to do some research on the toxic Texan's many misleading and outright FALSE assertions and disastrous policies. Were you holding your breath for an explanation for those too? Didn't think so. This Administration does not enforce environmental laws that are in place. The energy bill that took 5 years to put together is a complete joke. Take a look at current and recent environmental legislatation do you purchase gas from ExxonMobil? sheesh. EDUCATE YOURSELF. Ask questions. Read a book or surf the web and read an article now and then. My assertions are based upon facts and from those facts I came to conclusions.
N_or_S_bound you are a kindred spirit to me. Thanks for your great posts.
Please educate YOURSELF on some of the facts. One small example: the "toxic Texan's" administration updated and suceeded in writing one of the most punative environmental regulations regarding gasoline and diesel storage tanks, i.e. terminals and bulk storage plants. (What a friend he is to the oil business!) Every previous adminstration since the rule first came out about 30 years ago conducted, oh maybe, a half-dozen inspection per year. Since 2001, EPA inspectors have conducted well over 100 inspections on storage facilities, resulting in several hundred thousand dollars in fines. Hmm...didn't find this particular fact out on the all-knowing "web"???
Granted....most on the liberal side of the aisle don't think the current administration is doing enough but give some credit where credit is due. Even I can say some good things about the Clinton years.
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Posted By: stewart
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2005 at 10:48am
Originally posted by N_or_S_bound
[br]Has anybody considered the last 10 days run-up in gas prices might be due to Labor Day opportunism instead of Katrina which could be a good excuse to "gouge" the public over one of the most heavily gas-consuming holidays?
I don't deny what happened in the Gulf. I just question the impact at this point. How do they really know production and distribution have been so heavily impacted.
I know there's folks familiar with the oil biz who read this site who might offer a more educated input than my suppositions.
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
One reason for the run up in prices around both Memorial Day and Labor Day is due to federal environmental regulations. During the summer months, EPA requires over 40 different fuel blends across the U.S., due to the fact that summer temperatures can cause emissions from gasoline vapors to increase pollution levels. For instance, during this time period, Northern Virgina, Richmond and the Norfolk area are required to sell an entirely different blend of gas than the rest of the state. The highly populated Atlanta, GA region is required to sell an entirely different blend, not only different than Virginia, but different from the rest of the entire state of GA. This goes on across the entire country. So just before the two holidays, refineries must change their production processes, and gasoline tranport vehicles and gas station owners must empty and clean out their tanks. Now.....if a station keeps their prices up a week or two after the holidays, there might be some extenuating circumstances but you also might want to question....
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Posted By: tangelo53
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2005 at 12:30pm
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I heard on 107.7 last night that Bush put a stop to this fuel-blend in order to produce product more quickly.
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Posted By: stewart
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2005 at 1:46pm
quote:
Originally posted by tangelo53
[br]I heard on 107.7 last night that Bush put a stop to this fuel-blend in order to produce product more quickly.
Yep--he gave a temproary waiver until September 15 so areas like northern Virginia won't have to worry about selling in-spec fuels. If he hadn't we'd be running out of gas very quickly. The turnover between summer and winter fuels this year is September 15th anyway so hopefully nobody will be too upset that there will be two weeks where a little more pollution is created, given the circumstances that put us in this situation.
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2005 at 2:44pm
The point was that without burning gasoline, your hybrid is worthless. There is no battery power without burning ordinary gasoline.
Hybrids are not gasoline AND electric powered. They are gas powered.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2005 at 10:41am
quote:
Originally posted by MDC
[br]The point was that without burning gasoline, your hybrid is worthless. There is no battery power without burning ordinary gasoline.
Hybrids are not gasoline AND electric powered. They are gas powered.
MDC - I guess you just don't get it; were you a liberal arts major? Tell me, how many miles (or yards) can a convetional gas only car travel without gas? Can you compare that to how far a hybrid can travel without gas - it's a simple calculation, even if you studied jounalism!
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2005 at 7:26am
stewart,
You've got some great inputs to some vexing questions here. Why don't you hang around awhile and keep enlightening us? There's enough other people who might learn something if they'd read what you write!
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2005 at 10:28am
NoSUV,
You just don't want to get it. The point is that Hybrids are not "alternative fuel". That's all.
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Posted By: Dhacim
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2005 at 11:21am
Originally posted by Route 17 Slugger
[br]getmehome pweeze, SI (Dongan Hills area)! I miss it too but VA is great! Not for nothing, the pizza stinks. The mozzarella is not fresh and the sauce is not sauce! That's a whole other story...boy what I would be willing to pay for a decent pie....lol
Moody Girl, I am sure most if not all that post here have made donations to the relief efforts. Even though a few here seem to be so self absorbed, I think all of us here have compassion for those surrounded/affected by all the devastation and chaos.
Who knows, maybe we can talk 122582 into donating his $3 score from this morning....turd
Originally posted by getmehome pweeze
[br]Where you from Rt17?? I'm from LI!! Miss it, but love VA!! (except the pizza...)Gas was 2.99 for mid grade this morning- YECK!!!
You Yanks are just getting Pizza from the wrong place. Try Padrino's II on Route 1 in Stafford. It's a dump, but its almost as good as any slice I have had in in the NYC. Place is run by a 300 lb. italian guy named Tiny. I kid you not. Check it out, it won't disappoint.
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Posted By: VA4ver
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2005 at 11:43am
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MDC is right, NoSUV. Hybids aren't alternative fuel vehicles because they don't run without gas. A gallon will last a bit longer, so there's the advantage.
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Posted By: 122582
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2005 at 11:46am
Dhacim,
I already sent my contribution to my brother and family down in Biloxi.
Keep slugging alive - tip your driver today!
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Posted By: Dhacim
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2005 at 11:49am
quote:
Originally posted by flatulentsluggerhugger
[br]Stewart is correct. Gas station owners are raising their rates because they have to. They get their shipment in and it cost $.30 to $.40 cents more and they pass it off to us. It's not their fault. They get their instructions from the big oil companies. Since 90% of our supply comes from LA and MS we're really in for the long run. Gas stations only make a few cents on the dollar as profit from gasoline(less than $.10 to be exact)
I went out to get gas for the first time in a month last night and the lines are starting to form.
MY ADVICE, GET YOUR GAS TONIGHT BECAUSE THE LINES WILL REALLY START THIS WEEKEND!!!!!
VOTE HOT!!!! SO GAS PASSERS LIKE ME WON'T ANNOY YOU!!!
whoever smealt it dealt it!!!!
That is actually entirely false....VA taxes gasoline at 17.5 cpg, add an additional 18.4 cpg federal tax for a combined total of 35.9 cpg. Wholesale gasoline prices on the mercantile exchange were 2.17 this morning, as high as 2.41 early last week....Lets use a middle figure...say $2.30. So $2.30 + 35.9 = $2.65.9 per gallon....cheapest I saw this morning (with wholesale gas going for 2.17) was $3.15 pg. Nearly 5 times the profit you cite in your above post....
Conclusion- WE ARE GETTING SCREWED. Its no wonder all the major oil companies are recording record profits in these times....
"Keep slugging, it saves gas"
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2005 at 1:24pm
Dhacim,
Thanks for that. I saw the wholesale price last Thursday afternoon at 2.18/gallon (off .25 that day) and forgot to account for taxes when I was thinking about it.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2005 at 1:52pm
quote:
Originally posted by VA4ver
[br]MDC is right, NoSUV. Hybids aren't alternative fuel vehicles because they don't run without gas. A gallon will last a bit longer, so there's the advantage.
Hybrids use electric drive to power their transmission, in addition to gas. It's not alternative in that either you have to go downhill to use the brakes to charge the battery to later drive the motor (but then, back when I drove a stick shift I just glided) or you have to use gas to charge the battery, BUT YOU STILL GET MORE OF AN ADVANTAGE THAN CONVENTIONAL FUELED VEHICLES. Hybrids are clearly part of the overall solution to reduce our reliance on just gas alone. Thank goodness for our legislature to embrace that.
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Posted By: Dhacim
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2005 at 1:56pm
Wow! You really love your Hybrid. You have been defending it for two pages now. Unfortunately, there are many hybrids that get worse gas mileage than small sedans that are not hybrid. I'm not talking about the Prius or the Insight. I'm talking about the Escape, and the Accord sport (which uses the battery to give more power to the fuel motor).
Unfortunately, Hybrids are merely a stop gap, and in reality don't do a whole lot to curb the nations demand for gas...Sorry. You are doing the right thing by driving one, but if you really want to curb the dependence for gasoline, you would burn Bio-Diesel or Ethanol...
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2005 at 2:04pm
I guess I make the mistake of categorizing all hybrids as if they were like my Prius. Without the exemption, is it more likely that the regular lanes will become even more congested than they are now? Wouldn't you say that the express lanes with the hybrid exemption tend to move better (25-35 mph) that the regular lanes? Don't you agree that if the congestion becomes worse in the regular lanes than currently felt that the general population will clammor even louder for toll roads to allow tolls to provide the balance between the lanes?
And, yes, if ever car in the US was a hybrid, we WOULD see our consumption drop significantly. What do we have to do for the auto manufacturers to only produce hybrids?
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Posted By: stewart
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2005 at 2:35pm
That is actually entirely false....VA taxes gasoline at 17.5 cpg, add an additional 18.4 cpg federal tax for a combined total of 35.9 cpg. Wholesale gasoline prices on the mercantile exchange were 2.17 this morning, as high as 2.41 early last week....Lets use a middle figure...say $2.30. So $2.30 + 35.9 = $2.65.9 per gallon....cheapest I saw this morning (with wholesale gas going for 2.17) was $3.15 pg. Nearly 5 times the profit you cite in your above post....
Conclusion- WE ARE GETTING SCREWED. Its no wonder all the major oil companies are recording record profits in these times....
"Keep slugging, it saves gas"
Uh....Wrong. The breakdown in gasoline prices, according to a 2004 study by the Government Accountability Office (GAO-05-525SP) is as follows: 48% of the price is the price of a barrel of crude (thank you King Abdullah), 23% is taxes, 17% is the refining cost, 12% is distribution.
You have hit upon something as far as the markets go.....I'm not super well-versed on this part of the market but most people don't realize that the majors have little influence over the actual price paid at the pump. The Nymex sets future prices at 30 days out. Now where the majors screw us is that they were never supposed to go by the futures market to set prices but somehow the system has evolved in to this. So whatever the traders think the cost of oil will be in a month, the majors use this as their current price. And if you think they are like the airlines where if one company lowers their price then they all will, that doesn't happen. If Exxon lowered their price today by 20%, they would be out of oil so fast and the other majors would be laughing all the way to the bank.
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Posted By: Dhacim
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2005 at 2:49pm
Stewart, I was not talking about oil futures. I speak of wholesale gasoline futures, ie. already refined. The numbers I quoted were from July 2005. My point is, oil companies are making record profits because they are constantly increasing the margin on which they sell gasoline. When Exxon pays 2.17 a gallon and directly distributes to stores where they can charge $3.15 a gallon they just grossed a dollar on one gallon minus the taxes which as of July 2005 where 17.5 cpg for VA, and 18.4 cpg federal. We are being screwed. If we were not, and oil companies consistently provided the world market with gas priced comparably to the past, then we would not see huge companies like Exxon double their profits in one quarter.
You are comparing apples to oranges.
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Posted By: Dhacim
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2005 at 2:58pm
BTW Stewart, The price of gas in Pearl River, Al was reported as $2.59 today. This in an area where there is very little power, and next to no gas.
what does this mean...We are getting screwed.
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Posted By: stewart
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2005 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by Dhacim
[br]Stewart, I was not talking about oil futures. I speak of wholesale gasoline futures, ie. already refined. The numbers I quoted were from July 2005. My point is, oil companies are making record profits because they are constantly increasing the margin on which they sell gasoline. When Exxon pays 2.17 a gallon and directly distributes to stores where they can charge $3.15 a gallon they just grossed a dollar on one gallon minus the taxes which as of July 2005 where 17.5 cpg for VA, and 18.4 cpg federal. We are being screwed. If we were not, and oil companies consistently provided the world market with gas priced comparably to the past, then we would not see huge companies like Exxon double their profits in one quarter.
You are comparing apples to oranges.
Or apples to bananas....which I apparently was when I first read your post. I guess I part ways with some on this thread that it is big business out to destroy us and I may be a tad defensive. The American consumer deserves just as much blame. Some lady on the news was stating she absolutely had to have her SUV to carry her kids around from school to sports, etc. Made me wonder how the heck my Mom carted my brother and I around in our VW bug. I mean, the football, lacrosse stick and band instruements were in our laps so we didn't get a good view of the DVD playing (oh wait....there wasn't one) but I don't remember complaining.
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Posted By: Dhacim
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2005 at 3:48pm
Or apples to bananas....which I apparently was when I first read your post. I guess I part ways with some on this thread that it is big business out to destroy us and I may be a tad defensive. The American consumer deserves just as much blame. Some lady on the news was stating she absolutely had to have her SUV to carry her kids around from school to sports, etc. Made me wonder how the heck my Mom carted my brother and I around in our VW bug. I mean, the football, lacrosse stick and band instruements were in our laps so we didn't get a good view of the DVD playing (oh wait....there wasn't one) but I don't remember complaining.
You make a fine point my friend. It is us the consumers allowing ourselves to be screwed through our overzealous consumption. I whole-heartedly agree with you.
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Posted By: getmehome pweeze
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2005 at 10:28am
Thanks Dhachim, I googled it. Goin to NY Saturday though, I'll get the real thing, save Pardrino's for a future craving!! Happy almost Friday!
:'}
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Posted By: Dhacim
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2005 at 10:43am
quote:
Originally posted by 122582
[br]Dhacim,
I already sent my contribution to my brother and family down in Biloxi.
Keep slugging alive - tip your driver today!
That wasn't me buddy, I just replied with a Moody Girl quote.
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Posted By: getmehome pweeze
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2005 at 7:25am
Ok Dhacim, we were out and about last night, and happened apon Padrino's II, you were rite!! Good, hot crunchy greasy pizza!! BTW- the Chinese restaurant next door is very good also, we used to go there.
:'}
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Posted By: Route 17 Slugger
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2005 at 4:49pm
Please educate YOURSELF on some of the facts. One small example: the "toxic Texan's" administration updated and suceeded in writing one of the most punative environmental regulations regarding gasoline and diesel storage tanks, i.e. terminals and bulk storage plants. (What a friend he is to the oil business!) Every previous adminstration since the rule first came out about 30 years ago conducted, oh maybe, a half-dozen inspection per year. Since 2001, EPA inspectors have conducted well over 100 inspections on storage facilities, resulting in several hundred thousand dollars in fines. Hmm...didn't find this particular fact out on the all-knowing "web"???
Granted....most on the liberal side of the aisle don't think the current administration is doing enough but give some credit where credit is due. Even I can say some good things about the Clinton years.
Stewart, what regulation was updated? Please enlighten me. I'm glad the EPA is giving citations to those who violate UST regulations. I work with environmental lawyers and legistlative consultants. I also have a friend that works at CQ. Do you know what resolutions and bills are on the agenda for today? What's passed? What has been amended? I do. I am a WTC survivor and have since 9/11 developed asthma so I guess I have a personal stake in environmental issues, more than I used to. I can give credit where credit it due but it won't be to this administration regarding environmental issues and for the record, I'm not a liberal.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2005 at 11:03am
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Ah, but most slugs are anti-environiment. Just notice the hybrid bashing. One would think those who care about the envirionment would embrace all incentives to reduce pollution by getting more on the road as replacements for higher polluting cars anyway possible.
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Posted By: ehoberg
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2005 at 4:49pm
let us see.. we're are allowed to look to the government for help us out of disasters but we are not allowed to hold it responsible for the price gouging occurring in favor of industries with which certain key governmental figures have direct interest and affiliation.
got it.
I do agree there is strength in numbers. Get involved and stop letting that socio-path have his way.
When the oil companies are making the biggest profit margin in world history right now, it's hardly digestable that the hurricane or anything but inconceivable greed, caused the price of gas to raise.
pretty soon no one will afford to drive to work and there will be no incentive to commute to DC because the cost to do so will weigh against the benefits. oh how our wannabe towns will suffer.
nicely done.
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Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2005 at 9:04am
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]Ah, but most slugs are anti-environiment. Just notice the hybrid bashing. One would think those who care about the envirionment would embrace all incentives to reduce pollution by getting more on the road as replacements for higher polluting cars anyway possible.
More distortions. Letting hybrids have their exemption is not automatically pro-environment. First, some of the hybirds are dirty. Basically, half the models currently out aren't any cleaner than the average conventional car. Second, giving the exemption gives and incentive to move further out and driving more miles since they can just jump on the HOVs and make up the time. Third, it clogs up the HOVs lanes and slows down buses and carpoolers nullifying the time advantage necessary to entice people to use these options.
I'm all for hybrids and happy to see them in the HOVs with the the occupants.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2005 at 10:48am
quote:
Originally posted by Wagonman
[br]quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]Ah, but most slugs are anti-environiment. Just notice the hybrid bashing. One would think those who care about the envirionment would embrace all incentives to reduce pollution by getting more on the road as replacements for higher polluting cars anyway possible.
More distortions. Letting hybrids have their exemption is not automatically pro-environment. First, some of the hybirds are dirty. Basically, half the models currently out aren't any cleaner than the average conventional car. Second, giving the exemption gives and incentive to move further out and driving more miles since they can just jump on the HOVs and make up the time. Third, it clogs up the HOVs lanes and slows down buses and carpoolers nullifying the time advantage necessary to entice people to use these options.
I'm all for hybrids and happy to see them in the HOVs with the the occupants.
Wagonman, the distortions are from you. Most of the hybrids are not dirty, and giving them the exemption helps not only clean up the environment, but also reduces overall consumption. The Express (HOV) lanes are far less clogged than the regular lanes - just look to your right. We must continue the exemption until the lanes are at about the same pace - and then eliminate all non hybrids, since the other cars will just slow down the buses and environmentally better and consumption better cars. Once that becomes clogged, then we can go back to HOV hybrid, keeping regular cars out of the express lanes.
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Posted By: Dhacim
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2005 at 2:04pm
quote:
Originally posted by getmehome pweeze
[br]Thanks Dhachim, I googled it. Goin to NY Saturday though, I'll get the real thing, save Pardrino's for a future craving!! Happy almost Friday!
:'}
Hey...what are slugs for. Its not quite NY....but its the best they got around here...
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Posted By: getmehome pweeze
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2006 at 3:59pm
Ahhhh.....bored and running through old topics...
A year ago we were arguing about high gas prices and our wonderful president (sarcasm people)
Now, gas prices are falling, and wonderful old Bushy's approval rating is at 36%- ha.
And, I still get some great almost NY pizza from Padrino's!
Happy almost Friday everyone!
GMHP was hea!
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