HOV Times
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Topic: HOV Times
Posted By: wmcg
Subject: HOV Times
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2005 at 7:51am
I think its time to consider a change in HOV hours. These current times (0600-0900) - (1500-1800) have not been changed in years, if at all, while traffic has increased tremendously. It takes 30 minutes longer from RT17 to the 14th St bridge than it took 1 year ago. If you hit the HOV at just before, at or just after 0600, there are so many violators its just like riding on the 95 side. Can't we petition VDOT and the VASP to go to hours like 0530-0900 and 1500-1900 just to get back to where we were a few short months ago? I plan on conbtacting both today...anyone else care to write to them? Please consider this!!!
wmcg
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Replies:
Posted By: Baz
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2005 at 8:11am
wmcg,
I honestly think its a great idea also. It doesnt have to be an extreme change either...I thing the change in hours you suggested would be appropriate.
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Posted By: hotscr17
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2005 at 8:23am
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that's a good idea but I don't think it'll change much. i think the volume of traffic is what is causing the slow downs, not the HOV hours. Plus with the addition of 5 billion Hybrids the lanes just can't support the amount of traffic.
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Posted By: wmcg
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2005 at 8:46am
quote:
Originally posted by hotscr17
[br]that's a good idea but I don't think it'll change much. i think the volume of traffic is what is causing the slow downs, not the HOV hours. Plus with the addition of 5 billion Hybrids the lanes just can't support the amount of traffic.
I think by adding more time to the HOV lanes will help. It will get the non-HOV cars off before 0600 and allow for a faster commute.
I have just sent an email to VDOT, the VASP, Congressman Cantor and Senator Allen asking for support. If more did this we just might get somewhere. Hopefully the damn hybrids will lose their exemption this next July.
mwcg
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Posted By: MSCUSN
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2005 at 8:57am
Rather than change the times, why not ask them to enforce the current times; if they routinely started ticketing violators at 6am and 3:30pm, then the violators would be out by the time HOV started. In other words, do not make or change current laws, enforce the ones you already have first!
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2005 at 9:02am
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I hate to be so cynical, but VDOT has been stalling on anything that would help the HOV for a long time now, since they sold out to HOT. For example, the extreme need for re-paving of 395. Not done because of HOT.
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Posted By: VA4ver
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2005 at 10:38am
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Speaking of HOT, have the companies done a study on how the toll road will back traffic into DC? There will be slow downs as you hit a booth so that would push the back up right into DC. Wonder if DC has even paid attention to this.
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Posted By: wmcg
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2005 at 2:03pm
quote:
Originally posted by MSCUSN
[br]Rather than change the times, why not ask them to enforce the current times; if they routinely started ticketing violators at 6am and 3:30pm, then the violators would be out by the time HOV started. In other words, do not make or change current laws, enforce the ones you already have first!
I agree with you MSCUSN...we should demand that the current laws be enforced. But, here we are talking about the shear volume of traffic generated by the over-development of the 3 counties surounding Fredericksburg. Enforcement is good...more hours for them to enforce is better. And again I say...let's get rid of those damn Hybrids in July, '06 as planned.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2005 at 6:57am
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It STILL isn't the hybrids - it's the overall build up of traffic caused by increased development without the requisite improvements in infrastructure. Just look at the differences in population growth over the past 10 years vs. the road/public transportation improvements. Look to your right - is it better or worse over there?
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Posted By: scoobydoo
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2005 at 7:22am
I think it's worse. People wrecking and causing back ups aon the freeways, some will even wreck right on the HOV and then what? we are late for work. Lucky I have a door in my office, so I can just sneak in and no one knows I'm late. But what about those who have to clock in? I think the HOV lanes should have a wall dividing the others lanes.
And on another subject: Where are the slugs waiting in line for Mill Rd? I think we had a couple of slugs that got dropped off at the wrong destination and had to walk back.
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]It STILL isn't the hybrids - it's the overall build up of traffic caused by increased development without the requisite improvements in infrastructure. Just look at the differences in population growth over the past 10 years vs. the road/public transportation improvements. Look to your right - is it better or worse over there?
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Posted By: wmcg
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2005 at 8:56am
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]It STILL isn't the hybrids - it's the overall build up of traffic caused by increased development without the requisite improvements in infrastructure. Just look at the differences in population growth over the past 10 years vs. the road/public transportation improvements. Look to your right - is it better or worse over there?
OK, forget about the hybrids even though they are a problem. Lets stick with the idea of expanding HOV hours that will hopefully prevent huge back-ups caused by non-HOV vehicles who got on prior to 0600 and make no attempt to get off. Expanding the HOV hours and asking for increased enforcement will allow car-poolers and slugers to get to work on time. Right now it's getting more difficult every month. With the exception of more enforcement, does anyone have a better idea that would have a more immediate impact on commuting? Lets hear them if there are any. Could the VASP post a car at the entrance to the HOV with it's blue lights flashing? That would have an impact on violators but I fear it would also have a negative impact on revenues for the VASP.
wmcg
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Posted By: tangelo53
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2005 at 3:55pm
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]It STILL isn't the hybrids - it's the overall build up of traffic caused by increased development without the requisite improvements in infrastructure. Just look at the differences in population growth over the past 10 years vs. the road/public transportation improvements. Look to your right - is it better or worse over there?
I also think there are way too many Hybrids/single drivers on HOV. I am all for the environment, but I just don't understand why the Hybrid drivers can't pick up slugs....if they picked up slugs, that would be 2 more cars off the road. That would be awesome, considering there are now probably more Hybrids on HOV than anything else.
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Posted By: scoobydoo
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2005 at 4:14pm
Yeah, I've been late for work three times already this month. Once because someone wasn't supposed to be in the HOV lane and got pulled over. Well there goes that morning. The cop is blocking the lane and we had a difficult time getting over so we could go around them.
I wish we had the far right lane, it would make getting on and off alot easier.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2005 at 7:34am
quote:
Originally posted by tangelo53
[br]quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]It STILL isn't the hybrids - it's the overall build up of traffic caused by increased development without the requisite improvements in infrastructure. Just look at the differences in population growth over the past 10 years vs. the road/public transportation improvements. Look to your right - is it better or worse over there?
I also think there are way too many Hybrids/single drivers on HOV. I am all for the environment, but I just don't understand why the Hybrid drivers can't pick up slugs....if they picked up slugs, that would be 2 more cars off the road. That would be awesome, considering there are now probably more Hybrids on HOV than anything else.
And STILL the express lanes move far better than the regular lanes! On Thursday 11/10 commute outbound, regular lanes from Pentagon to 495 moving at 5 mph; express lanes ONLY moving at the speed limit. Is it any wonder that there is so much resistance to any change in the hours and so much momentum for HOT? Drivers in the regular lanes need the hours reduced so they can get to/from work - and based on the 11/10 commute, there are far more in those lanes than in the express.
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2005 at 7:58am
NoSUV,
That's probably not a good date to use as an example. Much of that traffic was folks trying to leave for their 3 day weekend, whether to get home to leave on it or already packed up with less than 3 so not HOV-3 qualified.
Acquiescing and accommodating the SINGLE-minded person who believes it is some fundamental Constitutional right to travel solo in America isn't going to help the problem. It's time to face that. You know it to be the truth yet continue to deny. I'm not certain your motives. You're obviously an educated person, yet you choose to continue with a one note trumpet that's not making any music (e.g. sense).
When moving into concentrated population centers, there are benefits that abound for those who realize there are individual preferences and desires that will have to be sacrificed.
A more balanced stance in what you'd like to see happen would probably make it easier to effect change in the minds of people here. I'll admit there are folks on the slug/HOV side of the argument who are just as stuck with their own personal preferences. The benefits of their preferences to the populace as a whole though outweigh what you desire to see become "standard".
Now, if these same people who slug/HOV would only get engaged in trying to effect change at all levels (the closest being the most effective), we'd all see the power of the vote in a people.
The highway counters will have new stats out shortly speaking to which options carry more people in a balanced sense (IF monetary incentives aren't used to suppress that data). Numbers will tell the tale. Those who could carry more than just themselves in their vehicle or ride in another commuting means and CHOOSE to stay at 5 mph in the mainlanes have the option to HOV.
All choices in life have either a benefit or downside. Why try to mask that? (of course, I ask this of you, but I already know your general response. Were you genuinely interested in improvements that would benefit the somewhat sacrificing majority, you'd have adopted reason and at least acknowledged that HOV is better than SOV in ALL cases.).
Back to you sir. I'll not engage in further dialogue with you on this matter until you've adopted a more reasonable approach.
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2005 at 1:34pm
NoSB: As I've said before, the logical extension of your argument is the elimination of ALL cars from the express lanes. As you say, those who choose to use private transportation are near-SINGLE minded people who believe it is their Constitutional right to travel in less than public transportation in America won't help the problem. As much as I, you also know that is the truth.
Is HOV "better" that SOV? Depends. Something needs to happen for more fuel efficient vehicles with newer technology, and either we must use taxpayer subsidies or provide non-financial incentives. I guess I could sit in the regular lanes if you paid me $6K/year to do so.
All of your statements can be used to advocate removing cars from the express lanes: individual sacrifices, changing mindsets, options to carry more people, and best of all, those who carry only themselves and up to 4 people and CHOOSE to stay at 5 mph in the regular lanes have the option to take public transportation.
I am tired of slugs trumpeting that the current system is the best. It's not. Might be for them, but not for the majority.
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Posted By: AveMaria
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2005 at 3:08pm
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I agree that the BEST solution would be mass transit ONLY. I would give up picking up slugs if the Metro was extended to PWC. I would take the OmniBus IF the fares were cheaper. How I would love to sit back and read a book during my commute.
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Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2005 at 8:08pm
quote:
Originally posted by AveMaria
[br]I agree that the BEST solution would be mass transit ONLY. I would give up picking up slugs if the Metro was extended to PWC. I would take the OmniBus IF the fares were cheaper. How I would love to sit back and read a book during my commute.
Be careful of what you ask for, you just might get it. Cheaper fares in mass transit? As it is, only about 40% of the operating costs and none of the capital costs of transit come out of the fare box.
Where does the money come from? Partly from the fuel taxes. Fuel taxes that were once dedicated to roads. Partly from sales taxes, partly from property taxes.
You must have a reason, or several reasons for citing mass transit only as the BEST solution. Care to share with the group?
Do you really want METRO? If so why?
Sit back and read? Have you tried the Itty-Bitty Book Light? or earphones and recorded books?
dickboyd@aol.com
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2005 at 8:43pm
As Americans we are too prone to look for a "silver bullet" solution to any challenge we face. It usually boils down to an all-or-nothing proposition in our minds since we don't want to give it too much thought (it's like thinking hurts our brains or something).
Yeah, sure, go all mass transit. You've now established a single point of failure in a system just like DB just pointed out.
A balanced approach to any system is to build in some redundant capability. The current solution needs tweaking and any REASONABLE person can see that decreasing vehicles should be a high priority to restore the flow rate. Any solution that goes in the opposite direction is downright foolish and unreasonable...except to anyone who has an outright equity in promoting that (faulty) solution.
Flow will increase with fewer vehicles in the HOV. Maybe someday the need will be there to eliminate all vehicles that carry less than 15 people. For the time being, the system appears to be able to handle vehicles carrying less than 15. Now comes the part where you need to incentivize people to get out of their single occupant vehicles and into something carrying more than 1. HOV-3 is a reasonable element in this regards. HOV-4 makes even more sense since most vehicles are engineered with seating for at least four.
Single occupant vehicles, regardless of the rationale, don't contribute to optimizing the system. They only serve to reduce the overall efficiency for all concerned---except those who are SOV in the HOV. Most see that.
Any call for an excessive response to a suboptimized system is unreasonable and unnecessary.
Dick makes the case many times elsewhere: recruit a slug. Who have you talked to about becoming a slug? Try it today and see if folks are interested in saving time, money, resources, the environment, and others I've not thought of yet.
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2005 at 6:59am
NoSB: Again, as you point out, the express lanes during commuting hours generally can carry the current load with vehicles with less than HOV-15; in fact, that also includes SOV hybrids. Still looking to your right?
Also, most new technology needs help to become mainstream. Remember the conversion from leaded to unleaded cars? There was little to no incentive to get the more expensive unleaded vehicles, and there were all sorts of people out there trying to figure out how to cheat the system. The conversion succeeded because the goverment made it so. Just as you so clearly see the need to get people to carpool, many of us also see that the nation must covert to hybrid technology - perhaps even with alternate fuel sources - to reduce fuel demand as well as better the environment. Non-hybrid vehicles, regardless of the rationale, don't contribute to optimizing that. Now comes the part where you need to incentivize people to get out of their non-hybrid vehicles and into something more fuel efficient, like hybrids or clean fuel vehicles. Hybrids are reasonable elements in this regard; clean fuel vehicles are even better. All calls for their elimination in the express lanes is unreasonable and unnecessary.
Perhaps we should instead be asking - have you recruited a vehicle owner to buy a hybrid today?
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Posted By: 122582
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2005 at 8:06am
Most SOV and hybrid drivers I know do not and will not pick up "hitchhikers". To get more drivers picking up riders, riders need to start sharing the cost. Slugs would improve their social status among the majority (folks who pay for their own ride to work) if it became known they offer tips.
If you don't believe me, just hold up a sign that says "I tip" and see if you aren't called even if you're 20 people back in line.
Keep slugging alive - tip your driver today!
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Posted By: wmcg
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2005 at 9:21am
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I don't know where some of these posts are coming from, but my original topic was looking for support from VDOT and members of congress along with the state police to get the HOV operating hours changed to start them earlier and continue them longer. I believe this, admititly a bandaid, could be valuable in allowing for a smoother commute.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2005 at 12:53pm
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wmcg: It ties, in a round about way. Increasing the HOV hours on the express lanes decreases the time for the express lanes to be used by SOVs. Currently, there are quite a number of SOV drivers who try to beat or outwait the rush by leaving earlier for work or returning later. Changing the hours for HOV might have the unintended problem of clogging the main lanes even more - and that is likely to be untenable with the state government.
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2005 at 1:59pm
Who gives a flying fig newton about the selfish drive-holes in the regular lanes? Let them move closer to their work or condescend to rideshare. If they don't like their commute, TOO BAD!
Now, let's get back to a more thoughtful discussion of the impact of extending the HOV-only hours...
One thing I fear would happen is that the lots would fill even earlier in the morning. The 234 lot, for example, now fills by 6:30. Push the HOV start time to 5:00 a.m. and it will fill by 5:30. The other lots, too, might fill an hour earlier. Probably would, IMO.
In other words, rather than spread the congestion out, it would move it forward an hour, then leave the lanes emptier in the final hour.
If you expand the times, then you need to expand the parking facility that supports it.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2005 at 2:25pm
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wmcg: It ties, in a round about way. Increasing the HOV hours on the express lanes decreases the time for the express lanes to be used by SOVs. Currently, there are quite a number of SOV drivers who try to beat or outwait the rush by leaving earlier for work or returning later. Changing the hours for HOV might have the unintended problem of clogging the main lanes even more - and that is likely to be untenable with the state government.
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2005 at 2:28pm
Hey 122582, why are you even here? Why are you polluting the bandwidth with your nonsensical babbling? Why would you even chime into this discussion but to spread your selfish, egotistical goofball theology? You are not even a participant in slugging, you're a taxi driver! Until you embrace the simplistic beauty and perfection of slugging, your opinion doesn't even matter.
The discussion about HOV hours, however, goes hand-in-hand with other valid suggestions such as HOV-4, no exemptions, and adding HOV lanes as a way to build on the success of the HOV system.
For the average sulgger who commutes during 'peak' hours, extending the HOV restriction hours would not really matter except maybe in finding parking. It would, however, adversely affect the SOV lanes as those early and late commuters who skirt the HOV times could be thrown back into the SOV lanes. For HOV commuters and slugs there are some real advantages; some commuters would exercise flex-time (early or late) schedules and use sluging, taking those riders and drivers off the roads during peak hours.
This is one of a very few good solid discussion points to come out of this forum in a long time!
Here's another: "Flex-lanes," or lanes that change direction to accomodate the traffic volume during the day. Imagine a whole highway with lanes that change direction based on commuter volume.
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