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Tired of choking on hybrid fumes

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Category: Archived Slugging Topics
Forum Name: Hybrids
Forum Description: This area is devoted to the discussion of hybrid vehicles and their impact to the HOV.
URL: http://www.slug-lines.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2884
Printed Date: 22 Nov 2017 at 3:24pm
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Topic: Tired of choking on hybrid fumes
Posted By: Bob
Subject: Tired of choking on hybrid fumes
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2006 at 9:00am
I think it is ridiculous how polluting some hybrids are when they are accelerating on an entry ramp. I'm sitting there and all of a sudden I can hardly breathe because of the noxious SO2 (rotten egg) fumes. I look up and there is a hybrid (or two or three) in front of me.

If we can't get these things out of the HOV, at least we should force them to meet some exhaust standards.



Replies:
Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2006 at 11:28am
Bob,

They need the gas engine to get up to hiway speeds and to charge the batteries. Toyota Prius hybrids run all-electric only below 35 mph; and from what I read, the other manufacturers' gas engines run all the time and are supplemented by the electric when needed.

Do you know of anyone who really likes the smell of rotten eggs?
Those persons may be only the hybrid SOV drivers in the HOV lanes.


Posted By: LDOMAJ
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2006 at 2:31pm
Rotten egg smell... interesting. Hybrids or inadvertant bodily function? (grin)

I certainly don't profess to be knowledgeable (quite the opposite I'am afraid) on the hybrid vs. regular issues but checked to see how my vehicle faired... I got this off of fuel economy website when compared side-by-side 4 cylinder, 4WD, automatic regular escape to a 4 cylinder 4WD, automatic hybrid. I only had time to look at mine so I cannot say that it is homogeneous with the rest of the community.

Ford Escape Hybrid 6.2 tons annual greenhouse gas emissions
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_sbs_SUVs.shtml

Ford Escape 8.2 tons annual greenhouse gas emissions
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm



Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2006 at 9:52pm
quote:
Originally posted by Bob
[br]I think it is ridiculous how polluting some hybrids are when they are accelerating on an entry ramp. I'm sitting there and all of a sudden I can hardly breathe because of the noxious SO2 (rotten egg) fumes. I look up and there is a hybrid (or two or three) in front of me.

If we can't get these things out of the HOV, at least we should force them to meet some exhaust standards.


Bob, according to raymond, what you smelled is impossible since he claims that hybrids use exactly the same energy source as your vehicle. Which of you is wrong?


Posted By: rodmunera
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2006 at 11:42pm
The Rotten egg smell on HOV is from hybrids? I thought it was weird, I always assumed that it was some sort of industrial byproduct coming off the Route 1 Corridor. I had no Idea why it seemed to plague the entire length of 395 / 95.

That explains a lot.


Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2006 at 8:41am
I can expand a little on what I said earlier. First, I have noticed this literally dozens of times, so there is something systematic here with at least some of the hybrids. I think it is mostly with the older Hondas, and may not involve Toyotas, but am not positive.

It happens on acceleration, although I have been at highway speed and noticed it then as well. In some cases it is pure rotten egg, and in other cases it just creates a burning sensation making it hard to breathe. It could be a tune up or computer setting issue, dont know.


Posted By: Luddite
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2006 at 2:52pm
I've noticed the smell too. One more time folks...hybrids aren't about the environment or efficiency. They are about riding solo. Sheesh.

Hybrids
Killed
HOV


Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2006 at 8:51am
Bob, You may have been a few cars behind one of those "clean-burning" diesels (do they get special plates too?). I have noticed that they emit an unusual smell similar to the sulphur smell you describe.

Luddite, welcome to the light! You hit the nail on the head, but missed the benefit to the automaker's bottom line. Hybrids are just another product designed to market to people who are environmentally sensitive. Think of it, how in good conscience could anyone work at WWF or Greenpeace and drive a gas-hog (like the rest of us)? Now people can buy a hybrid, feel like they are making a positive difference, and sleep well at night in eco-ignorance.

Folks, hybrids burn gas too! And any gains in MPG are negated by SOV commuting and the future ecological threats of battery disposal. Wake up! Hybrids as ecological salvation is a falacy! Soylent Green is people!


Posted By: PennyPrius
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2006 at 9:46am
Had to join this group just because I find it interesting that there are so many concerned citizens wishing to keep things so pure like limiting HOV lanes to vehichles with 3 or more people in them.

I am sure it has been covered before, but please humor me, why is it ok for motorcycles to be in the HOV if they only can carry a maximum of two people? For the purists out there who want to protect the HOV for those that have 3 or more people in them, this seems to be contradictory.

As far as wrotten egg smells, I think there is misinformation out there. I have not smelled that smell coming from hybrids. And besides that, I rarely have my windows open and rarely do I see many cars on the road with windows open. So this smell permeates the a/c system?

This whole concept of taking hybrids out of the HOV seems more sour grapish than anything else.

As far as I am concerned if there is a way to pull a few more cars off the regular lanes without too much inconvenience to anyone else, let it be. Moving traffic efficiently should be the first priority and removing hybrids from HOV is only going to make it worse for the regular folks on the regular side.

I admit, I am not a daily HOV commuter, but often enough to see that there is no real issue with extra traffic because of hybrids in HOV lanes. I think it has been blown out of proportion and your voices were way louder to the legislators than those of the hybrid owners and that is why the laws were modified.

As far as treehugging goes, I bought and drive a hybrid because I thought it was a neat technology and a nice car to drive. It has all the features of a more luxurious car such as navigation, HID headlights, bluetooth,etc. for the price of a normal sedan, and I get upwards of 40 MPG on top of it all. Will I make my money back? I don't even understand what that sentence means. I bought the car because it is what I wanted, which most upwardly mobile people do. I don't think I paid a premium, I think I got a good deal and a great car.

Where is the outrage for drivers who consistently break the law by not using directional signals? That urks me more than any other single issue in driving. A few extra cars in a HOV lane does not tweak me at all compared to the lack of courtesy on the roads, including use of directionals which isn't even a courtesy, it is a law!

And BTW, where is the outrage for the exemption for Law Enforcement Officers being able to use the HOV lanes without 3 people? Why should they be expempt? Why not let trash collectors and Starbucks workers on too? Afterall, LEO's are just coming/going to work like everyone else.

Thank you......I feel better already.


Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2006 at 10:08am
The Sponge is going to come out in favor of hybrids. Yes!

Just not a lifetime extension of the HOV privilege.

My best friend bought a Prius in May after reading (yet another) liberal history of the Middle East that left him righteously fuming about U.S./Euro energy policy.

I told him he could use the HOV at his will. He said he could not care less -- he lives in Arlandria and works near Reston, so he already has a reverse commute.

The reason he bought the car is shown by his license plate: F-XOM.

He makes no claims to being super-green, but he is proud of his mileage. When they build a greener car, he'll buy it. Until then, he's doing what he can.

I think there are more people like him out there, and that's a good thing.


Posted By: slugjo
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2006 at 10:20am
Hi PennyPrius. WRT motorcycles, it's a safety issue. There aren't enough motorcycles to jam up the express lanes, and there isn't an avalanch of new ones being added every day, like hybrids have been. I ride a motorcycle (not for commuting), and I know that they are a bad vehicle to be on when there is heavy congestion. They are not made for going slow or repeatedly stopping. I think you are right about most of the things you posted. IMHO it is the violators who are most of the congestion problem in the express lanes. Even NoSUV is right about traffic flow on 395, inside the beltway. It moves along just fine, barring accidents. And express lane planning and policy has to be a give & take, with public transportation, HOV, exceptions, etc. We don't need HOT.
p.s. My wife and I call the Prius the "Priapus." (Greek god of fertility, gardening) Go ahead and google him, and look at the pictures. Funny.


Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2006 at 11:52am
Penny, welcome to the discussion. I don't think anyone really hates hybrids, or those who drive them. I have said that I applaud hybrid drivers for taking steps that they feel are positive in addressing the issues.

I think most people on this side of the fence oppose the special treatment regarding the hybrid/HOV exemption. I have detailed several reasons for my opposition of the hybrid exemption including socio-economic discrimination and marketing manipulation/deception by the auto industry.

But we really need to understand the hybrid/HOV issue is more about moving commuters and managing traffic, and the hybrid/HOV exemption only adds to the problems here. ANY SOV car adds to traffic management problems.

Now, if you want to talk ecology; fill those hybrid seats on your way into and out of town which will take cars off the road reducing pollution and fuel consumption while you reduce traffic congestion! Please see my prior posts where I discuss the "Passenger" MPG comparison; a smart way to level the discussion on vehicle effeciency.

The smart answer (that hybrid owners do not want to hear) is to HOV commute. It goes a long way to solving so many problems and requires little changes in our lifestyle (beyond what most people in this area already do).


Posted By: PennyPrius
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2006 at 2:57pm
quote:
Originally posted by raymond
[br]Penny, welcome to the discussion. I don't think anyone really hates hybrids, or those who drive them. I have said that I applaud hybrid drivers for taking steps that they feel are positive in addressing the issues.

I think most people on this side of the fence oppose the special treatment regarding the hybrid/HOV exemption. I have detailed several reasons for my opposition of the hybrid exemption including socio-economic discrimination and marketing manipulation/deception by the auto industry.

But we really need to understand the hybrid/HOV issue is more about moving commuters and managing traffic, and the hybrid/HOV exemption only adds to the problems here. ANY SOV car adds to traffic management problems.

Now, if you want to talk ecology; fill those hybrid seats on your way into and out of town which will take cars off the road reducing pollution and fuel consumption while you reduce traffic congestion! Please see my prior posts where I discuss the "Passenger" MPG comparison; a smart way to level the discussion on vehicle effeciency.

The smart answer (that hybrid owners do not want to hear) is to HOV commute. It goes a long way to solving so many problems and requires little changes in our lifestyle (beyond what most people in this area already do).



From what I have read, it seems that people resent SOV's. Why doesn't anyone speak of the LEO's that also take advantage of their HOV status? They are driving (usually) big v-8 gas hogs solo but I have yet to see them mentioned. Also, motorcycles.

If HOV is strictly for High occupancy, than NO exemptions should be granted. Once one exemption is made, then we can make as many as we (the people) want, as long as our legislators agree. I still maintain that some exceptions are realistic and others not so much so. Personally, I think the timing of HOV should be extended beyond 6 PM. or perhaps after 6 make it HOV 2 instead of 3. The bottom line is that the regular lanes IMHO are too crowded and moving a few cars over to HOV makes good sense, if no more lanes are to be added.


Posted By: rodmunera
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2006 at 3:28pm
Ok, 2 things:

Motorcycles (a dead horse that keeps on taking a beating): it's a safety issue, as explained in detail on other posts in this forum.

LEOs: It is actually Illegal for LEO's to drive SOV on HOV lanes while off-duty (e.g. on their way to work - on their way home). The exception is only for ON-DUTY LEO.

Whether off-duty LEOs get a pass from on-duty LEOs who are monitoring HOV as a professional courtesy is another matter entirely.


Posted By: PennyPrius
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2006 at 5:50pm
quote:
Originally posted by rodmunera
[br]Ok, 2 things:

Motorcycles (a dead horse that keeps on taking a beating): it's a safety issue, as explained in detail on other posts in this forum.

LEOs: It is actually Illegal for LEO's to drive SOV on HOV lanes while off-duty (e.g. on their way to work - on their way home). The exception is only for ON-DUTY LEO.

Whether off-duty LEOs get a pass from on-duty LEOs who are monitoring HOV as a professional courtesy is another matter entirely.




The following is taken from the VDOT website:

Exemptions to the Rules:

1. Motorcycles are permitted to use HOV lanes throughout Virginia during HOV hours.
2. Motorists traveling to and from Dulles International Airport on business are permitted to use I-66 inside the Beltway during HOV hours.
3. Vehicles powered exclusively by clean special fuel, including Hybrid gasoline/electric, hydrogen, hythane, methane, compressed natural gas, electricity, liquefied natural gas, liquefied petroleum gas, ethane, and solar energy and registered with clean special fuel license plates are permitted to use HOV lanes. Hybrid fuel vehicles (i.e., gasoline engines that are assisted with electricity) that are registered with clean special fuel license plates also qualify to use the HOV lanes. (See FAQ above for more information or visit www.dmvnow.com.)

Not all hybrids qualify for clean special fuel license plates, but the following do: Toyota Prius, Honda Insight, Honda Civic, 2005 Ford Escape, 2006 Ford Escape, 2006 Toyota Highlander, 2006 Lexus RX 400, 2006 Mercury Mariner, 2006 Honda Accord, 2007 Mercury Mariner, 2007 Lexus GS450h, 2007 Ford Escape.

4. Emergency vehicles (fire, ambulance, rescue) and law enforcement vehicles are exempt. Public utility vehicles are permitted to use HOV lanes when responding to emergency calls.


I interpret #4 as any Law enforcement vehicle which would include on and or off duty marked or unmarked cars. So an officer on the way to or from work in a vehicle issued to him/her for use on and off the job IS exempt and CAN use HOV.

That is my point. Where does one draw the lines for exemptions? Apparantly VA draws the line to include certain Hybrids, motorcycles, Law enforcement vehicles and vehicles with three or more people in them.




Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2006 at 3:44pm
Thanks for the update on VDOT exemption laws, I'm glad that the exemption is not a blanket 'free pass,' but identifies a few cars. Realistically there are few motorcycles and fewer LEO cars, compared to the thousands of SOV hybrids that clog the HOVs. (Although I think law makers and enforcers have applied a liberal interpretation of #4 in the name of national security. But who are we to analyze, we only know what we are told.)

This thread has an interesting title, "Tired of choking on hybrid fumes." Of course it's accurate, no matter if the smell is sulfur or CO2. Hybrids burn fossil fuels. Why the heck are they granted special exemptions?

Bottom line: ANY SOV contributes to our problems, HOV helps to solve them! HOT is discrimination!


Posted By: slugjo
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2006 at 7:10pm
Yep. One of my vehicles gets over 40 mpg, and is a very low emissions vehicle, hardly needing to be tested, and another gets over 50. Neither one is a hybrid. I'll probably own a hybrid someday, unless I can get a hydrogen burner and a place to "gas" it up. I also have a vintage outboard engine I call the "Smoker and a Joker and a Midnight Toker" that gets a couple of miles per gallon and leaves a blue smoke trail over the water. I'm so ashamed.


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2006 at 11:46am
quote:
Originally posted by raymond
[br]Realistically there are few motorcycles and fewer LEO cars, compared to the thousands of SOV hybrids that clog the HOVs.



raymond - perhaps you missed what Penny said. To paraphrase: What clog?

Another quiz for you:
What happens to the express AND regular lanes if 300,000 more people move to the area? How about a million? 3 million? Are you going to tell us that HOV is going to solve the problem?

Yet still, on 395, regular lanes crawl and express lanes move above the speed limit. Perhaps, for now, I-395 needs to be decoupled from I-95.

And raymond - is Bob wrong or is it you on the smell?


Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2006 at 3:25pm
NoSUV, Penny said a lot of things, ex. "If HOV is strictly for High occupancy, than NO exemptions should be granted." (That is a quote, BTW, not a ficticious paraphrase) Some of what Penny says makes lots of sense, especially for a newcomer to the debate. And new ideas are always welcome.

Answer to your quiz: HOV commuting will go further to solve these problems than SOV hybrids will! And if the HOV lanes flow as well as you say, then once the SOV hybrids are cleared off they will be able to accomodate aditional HOV traffic that population growth will bring.

What was your question again?


Posted By: PennyPrius
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2006 at 9:28am
I just reversed commuted from National Airport and what a surprise, (not) Regular NB lanes were literally bumper to bumper from the mixing bowl and beyond, down to Dale City where I got off. Of course as per my limited experience, the HOV lanes were free flowing with light traffic. This was from around 0830 to 0915 me headed SB. I saw one Trooper car with a stopped alledged violator before 0900 on the HOV lanes.

I either hit it right all the times I use the HOV's or there is not as large a clog as many onthis site maintain even with hybrid vehicles using the HOV.

I say they should try HOV 2 for a few months as an experiment and see if that aliviates some of the non HOV lane congestion on the 95/395 corridor.


Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2006 at 9:46am
HOV-2 would immediately eliminate slugging, as a large part of the perceived safety quotient comes from the old adage, "three's a crowd."

If you want to alleviate the clogs in the regular lanes, get people to carpool, to slug, to ride the bus, or telecommute.

Encouraging MORE cars to be on the road, which is what HOV-2 would do, is EXACTLY what we do not need!

(I don't mean to flame a newbie quite so hard, but we keep having the same brilliant ideas put forward time and again.)

Instead of HOV-2, we will probably need to go to HOV-4, build more commuter lots, and expand the hours of HOV operation. That is, until the toll roads make it all moot.


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2006 at 2:43pm
Sponge - have you ever thought that there might be legitimate reasons why people are in the regular lanes and can't carpool? What happens if their commute ends prior to the Pentagon by several miles, for example?

It makes no sense for the regular lanes to be jammed and for the express lanes to have almost no traffic. Thank goodness the toll system will help bring balance to the dark side of slugging.


Posted By: PennyPrius
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2006 at 2:52pm
quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]HOV-2 would immediately eliminate slugging, as a large part of the perceived safety quotient comes from the old adage, "three's a crowd."

If you want to alleviate the clogs in the regular lanes, get people to carpool, to slug, to ride the bus, or telecommute.

Encouraging MORE cars to be on the road, which is what HOV-2 would do, is EXACTLY what we do not need!

(I don't mean to flame a newbie quite so hard, but we keep having the same brilliant ideas put forward time and again.)

Instead of HOV-2, we will probably need to go to HOV-4, build more commuter lots, and expand the hours of HOV operation. That is, until the toll roads make it all moot.



IMHO I think many slugs slug because it is easier, cheaper, for them to do so. It eliminates having to spend on gas, parking fees, good highway vehicles (ever hear of the term "station cars") where I grew up people had those. Many of the ones who pick up slugs do it because they want the convenience of HOV status. I think it is a mutual relationship between the two parties. The last reason is the environment and or wanting to do their part to reduce traffic congestion.

Opening up HOV to a few more cars would help matters on both sides of the highway divider.


Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2006 at 3:03pm
quote:
Originally posted by PennyPrius
[br]I just reversed commuted from National Airport and what a surprise, (not) Regular NB lanes were literally bumper to bumper from the mixing bowl and beyond, down to Dale City where I got off. Of course as per my limited experience, the HOV lanes were free flowing with light traffic. This was from around 0830 to 0915 me headed SB. I saw one Trooper car with a stopped alledged violator before 0900 on the HOV lanes.

I either hit it right all the times I use the HOV's or there is not as large a clog as many onthis site maintain even with hybrid vehicles using the HOV.

I say they should try HOV 2 for a few months as an experiment and see if that aliviates some of the non HOV lane congestion on the 95/395 corridor.



First comment: Troll alert.

Second comment: August traffic patterns are not representative of the entire year. Generally HOV inhabitants take a lot of summer time off becuase they tend to be professionals, vs the regular lanes.

Third comment: Incorrect observation re this morning. I was 15 minutes later than usual this morning due to HOV congestion on 395.





Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2006 at 3:31pm
Yes, Bob, troll alert indeed.

The point to HOV is to reduce the total number of vehicles in the roadway. The roadway is the three regular lanes and the two divided lanes. They are one road.

Now, on to flaming: Pennyprius, thank you for the extremely helpful and insightful remarks on slugging. Who would have thought that people slug for convenience? Wow. Thank you for that.

But your assertion that "Opening up HOV to a few more cars would help matters on both sides of the highway divider," is... mindbogglingly... ignorant.

If your assertion were true, then it would be even more helpful to open up all five lanes of the roadway to ALL traffic. But then very few people would carpool, and none would slug. And with all the extra cars those former slugs and carpoolers add to the mix, the roads would be clogged on both sides, all five lanes.

All you have to do is look around Horner Road lot one morning, then imagine all those thousands of cars on the road. And add Seidenstricker, and Potomac Mills, and 610, and Old Hechinger's, and 234, and so on...

Please.

NoSUV next.



Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2006 at 3:43pm
One definition of a troll is someone who purports to use the HOV and proposes that it be changed to HOV2 to allow in thousands of additional cars. Doesn't sound too logical does it?


Posted By: PennyPrius
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2006 at 3:43pm
quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]Yes, Bob, troll alert indeed.

The point to HOV is to reduce the total number of vehicles in the roadway. The roadway is the three regular lanes and the two divided lanes. They are one road.

Now, on to flaming: Pennyprius, thank you for the extremely helpful and insightful remarks on slugging. Who would have thought that people slug for convenience? Wow. Thank you for that.

But your assertion that "Opening up HOV to a few more cars would help matters on both sides of the highway divider," is... mindbogglingly... ignorant.

If your assertion were true, then it would be even more helpful to open up all five lanes of the roadway to ALL traffic. But then very few people would carpool, and none would slug. And with all the extra cars those former slugs and carpoolers add to the mix, the roads would be clogged on both sides, all five lanes.

All you have to do is look around Horner Road lot one morning, then imagine all those thousands of cars on the road. And add Seidenstricker, and Potomac Mills, and 610, and Old Hechinger's, and 234, and so on...

Please.

NoSUV next.


Only comment is a question? Who died and left a very few of you arrogant and rude folks in charge of having opinions and being able to disseminate them?



Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2006 at 3:46pm
Dear NoSUV:

No, I am guilty, as everyone here will tell you, of thinking only about myself. (snicker.)

That is called sarcasm.

Your question was, if I recall: "have you ever thought that there might be legitimate reasons why people are in the regular lanes and can't carpool? What happens if their commute ends prior to the Pentagon by several miles, for example?"

Hmm. You mean like mine did when I worked in Alexandria for two years? Or when I worked in the Mount Vernon area?

So yes, I've thought about it because I've been there. Here's how I handled it: I thanked the people who were using the carpool lanes for getting their sorry butts out of my way.

I thanked the people in the vanpools and the Omniride buses for leaving their cars in lots rather than adding them to the mix.

I thanked also the other people who adjusted their schedules to spread out the traffic, so that those of us with set reporting times and daycare deadlines could stand some small chance of making it on time.

I discovered a ten minute window in the morning when I95 was somewhat clear to the Beltway.

I got up earlier each day, because I had, after all, accepted these jobs knowing where they were located.

Here's what I didn't do: troll a website where my arguments repeatedly were brought down in flames by a mere cartoon character.



Posted By: PennyPrius
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2006 at 3:51pm

Not sure what a troll is but it doesn't sound very polite or adult like in behavior, Bobby!

Secondly, I have stated I was more of an occaisonal HOV user several times and was strictly speaking from my personal experiences.

Thirdly, I mentioned exact times I was driving when I made my observations this morning. I don't know what time you commuted. How is what I stated at the time I stated it incorrect?

If you want to start a confrontation with me, you are off to a great start Bob. I come in peace.





Posted By: PennyPrius
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2006 at 4:07pm
quote:
Originally posted by Bob
[br]One definition of a troll is someone who purports to use the HOV and proposes that it be changed to HOV2 to allow in thousands of additional cars. Doesn't sound too logical does it?



Bob, I mentioned in my very first post that I was an occaisonal user of the HOV lanes. My job is such that I don't report to work on a daily basis, so I don't need to be on the road everyday. (You can thank me now) When I do go to or come home from work, I take the HOV lanes if available (in my Prius)

It didn't seem logical to me to go to war in Iraq but we did anyway. So your point is pointless. Logic to one is illogical to another.

Trying different things to alliviate congestion is better than sitting around thinking your entitled to use a road because you slug. Or trying to prevent others from using it because of your opinions, Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot, I am a troll, and my opinions don't count.

Personally, I think it is illogical and borderline illegal to use my tax dollars to build something and then tell me I can't use it because I don't meet the criteria. What kind of crap is that? Only special people can use a federal Hwy?

Now, if you want to start something with me, be my guest, I can hold my own, I deal with arrogance, rudeness and ignorance on a near daily basis for my job so it is nothing new to me to have to answer your type of personality.

I thought this was a place to discuss issues, not to put people down because they have a differing view than yours.


Posted By: SlugsB1tch2Much
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2006 at 7:27pm
Penny,

Are you new to the area? If so, then I think that your idea of HOV-2 comes from a lack of experience. From the time I've been living in Woodbridge, it is my opinion that HOV-2 is the most asinine commuting solution for this area. That would flood the HOV lane and totally ruin any chance of a 25 min commute b/w the hours of 6:00 and 6:30 in the morning. Why don't you just suck it up and try following the rules, instead of bitching, you'll love the results.

PS
Do my military friends a favor and leave Iraq out of a conversation about HOV-3; it's a trite and played out analogy for just about every topic that has little or no relation to it.


Posted By: VA_Hybrid
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2006 at 9:09pm
quote:
Originally posted by Bob
[br]I think it is ridiculous how polluting some hybrids are when they are accelerating on an entry ramp. I'm sitting there and all of a sudden I can hardly breathe because of the noxious SO2 (rotten egg) fumes. I look up and there is a hybrid (or two or three) in front of me.

If we can't get these things out of the HOV, at least we should force them to meet some exhaust standards.


You all contradict yourself all the time. I thought my hybrid emitted the same as your SUV?? How come you are choking on hybrid fumes but not on your SUV's fumes? How about diesel fumes ever chocked on those?


Posted By: scottt
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 8:22am
quote:
Originally posted by PennyPrius
[br]

Personally, I think it is illogical and borderline illegal to use my tax dollars to build something and then tell me I can't use it because I don't meet the criteria. What kind of crap is that? Only special people can use a federal Hwy?


There are lots of things build with tax dollars that you can't use. Try walking into the US Mint and see how far you get. Ask to view Ft. Knox. The Situation Room of the White House. Etc, etc, etc.....


Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 9:44am
PennyP wrote: "Personally, I think it is illogical and borderline illegal to use my tax dollars to build something and then tell me I can't use it because I don't meet the criteria."

Oh, but please notice that PennyPrius is all too happy to take advantage of the hybrid exemption on the HOV!

What a total hypocrite.


Posted By: SlugsB1tch2Much
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 9:59am
Thank you Bob and Scott for your cogent analyses regarding Penny; you can only thank God when idiocy is so obvious in her ridiculous statements.


Posted By: PennyPrius
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 10:36am
It is an absolute shame that so many know how to read, but so few have the ability to comprhend what they actually have read.

Me saying I don't think it fair that my tax dollars go to something that I can't really use is quite being a hypocrite because I own the type of vehicle that can use the road. HOV 2 would allow that many more vehicles on to a road that is under utilized and free up the regular lanes a bit more. To me a win win situation. Or at the very least a lose less/lose less situation.

The problems with our country are many, some wonderful expamples of the problem are right here in this chat. Being so insolated and narrow minded does not a country good. Being so quick to snap and judge is not healthy for America either. Opinions are OK people, but to put someone down for having a differing one than yours is immature, unhealthy and unacceptable.

That being said, our leadership says we don't need more roads but more tele-commuting, more affordable housing close in, more jobs further out, yatta-yatta. The simple fact remains that a road system designed 50 plus years ago, is simply not working. It is highly obvious that our road system was designed for much less traffic than what is on it today.

The laws of physics apply here. But roads are very expensive to put in. So our lawmakers tell us we need to do this do that and the next thing. Yet, the solution is simple, build more roads (lanes) to handle the more cars that are on the roads. It isn't rocket science, it's politics. They would rather allocate the funds to other projects that make more money for the rich. I think it was Marie Antoinette that once said, "Let them eat cake"

Put into modern terms, the conversation would be,

Common folk: "Your majesty, the roads are too crowded, the accidents too many, there aren't enough lanes for the amount of cars on them."

Leaders: "Oh, let them tele-commute"

The attitude Marie had did not bode well for her since she was beheaded. The attitude is not good here either. Think about it people, 3 lanes in the 60's was ok, but now? I don't think so.





Posted By: PennyPrius
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 10:43am
quote:
Originally posted by scottt
[br]
quote:
Originally posted by PennyPrius
[br]

Personally, I think it is illogical and borderline illegal to use my tax dollars to build something and then tell me I can't use it because I don't meet the criteria. What kind of crap is that? Only special people can use a federal Hwy?


There are lots of things build with tax dollars that you can't use. Try walking into the US Mint and see how far you get. Ask to view Ft. Knox. The Situation Room of the White House. Etc, etc, etc.....



Ok, let me simplify it for you. "National Parks go HOV-3" Do you think that would be fair?


Posted By: PennyPrius
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 10:47am
quote:
Originally posted by SlugsB1tch2Much
[br]Penny,

Are you new to the area? If so, then I think that your idea of HOV-2 comes from a lack of experience. From the time I've been living in Woodbridge, it is my opinion that HOV-2 is the most asinine commuting solution for this area. That would flood the HOV lane and totally ruin any chance of a 25 min commute b/w the hours of 6:00 and 6:30 in the morning. Why don't you just suck it up and try following the rules, instead of bitching, you'll love the results.

PS
Do my military friends a favor and leave Iraq out of a conversation about HOV-3; it's a trite and played out analogy for just about every topic that has little or no relation to it.



What rules am I not following? The comment about the war was in now way meant to take away from what our military people do. I am not that insensitive or naive.


Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 11:55am
Penny,

Historical factoid ... I-95 wasn't three lanes between Dale City and Richmond until the mid-to-late 1980's. [;)]

[8D] Have a great Labor Day weekend! [8D]


Posted By: PennyPrius
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 12:02pm
quote:
Originally posted by sluDgE
[br]Penny,

Historical factoid ... I-95 wasn't three lanes between Dale City and Richmond until the mid-to-late 1980's. [;)]

[8D] Have a great Labor Day weekend! [8D]



Good to know. Since then, traffic has increased again. They thought to widen the road then, perhaps they should think about that again instead of these crazy rules.


Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 12:29pm
Periodically, PennyP, we have a new troll like you who shows up to tell us how selfish we are for carpooling and "keeping the lanes for ourselves."

These new trolls often use the "U" word: under-utilized.

It is the dead giveaway that we are talking to a Toll Road Troll. Would you happen to be an employee of one of the companies that wants to make money by stealing the taxpayer-built carpool lanes on I95?

Your arguments are invalid and have been refuted on this board so many times over the years that we have little left but scorn to heap on your anti-carpooling mentality.



Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 12:35pm
quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]
If your assertion were true, then it would be even more helpful to open up all five lanes of the roadway to ALL traffic. But then very few people would carpool, and none would slug. And with all the extra cars those former slugs and carpoolers add to the mix, the roads would be clogged on both sides, all five lanes.

All you have to do is look around Horner Road lot one morning, then imagine all those thousands of cars on the road. And add Seidenstricker, and Potomac Mills, and 610, and Old Hechinger's, and 234, and so on...



Of course, where ya gonna park all those vehicles once they get "into the city"? Seems you've now shifted the parking problem from areas that have more land to convert to parking spaces to a place that doesn't have land unless you convert buildings to rubble. Interesting quandry.

Why is it the SOVs don't see a problem when it comes to parking? Curious that.

A possibility for those who choose (or "don't have a choice") the main lanes, is that they could usually pick up a slug or ten, still drop off at the Pentagon or like area, then backtrack AND STILL save time/money/fuel. A final note about the group that "don't have a choice" but to mainlane, many are blue-collar workers who don't park on the north end of the drive--they use their vehicles thruout the day in the normal course of events. How much better if they were hybrids, getting BETTER mileage (on the whole) as they sit in the mainline, not having to park, and using their vehicle for their daily work in some fashion of stop&go traffic throught the day?

NoSb

SOV because you can, HOV because you care!


Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 12:46pm
Now, now, sponge and SB2M, is this any way to talk to a newbie to this forum?! Penny is entitled to her opinions, and while posting them and discussing the issues she will learn, as the rest of us have, the relevant facts and the battlelines that we are fighting for. I think there is always room for new views of old ideas (ex. "tele-commuting, more affordable housing close in"), so lets keep our minds open. And lets try to be nice to others.


Posted By: PennyPrius
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 12:47pm
HOV because you care? Give me a break. Some sluggers are making a politcal statement I am sure, but no way will you convince me that there are many that do it because they care, they do it because it is fulfilling some other need. Time, lack of vehicle, saving money, etc. Not because they care about saving our natural resources. WEAK!

Oh and I am so sorry to those who have been here posting for a longer period of time than I have. I didn't realize that once a topic was covered, that it could not be covered ever again. I will try to read the thousands of posts and limit myself to only those topics that have NOT been covered before.

Do any of you read what you type before clicking "post" if you did you would save us all alot of postering and bluster. As well as arrogance, ignorance and lack of tolerance for any opinion that differs from your own.


Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 1:35pm
quote:
Originally posted by PennyPrius
[br]HOV because you care? Give me a break. Some sluggers are making a politcal statement I am sure, but no way will you convince me that there are many that do it because they care, they do it because it is fulfilling some other need. Time, lack of vehicle, saving money, etc. Not because they care about saving our natural resources. WEAK!




Penny,

Welcome to the board!

Yep, I put that sig on my posts, but it does have another meaning for certain folks. There are those who can choose to SOV, because they can. There are those who can choose to SOV, but choose to HOV because they care. It's for each to decide why they HOV/SOV.

Sometimes we make choices that do have benefits beyond our motives for doing something. Slugs do fall into that category whether everyone wants to agree with it or not.

I'm sorry if you still view my statement as "weak", but it's my statement and you're entitled to your opinion. Again, welcome to the dialogue. You and others may choose less than gracious behavior, I'll not choose to respond in like kind. On the contrary, I'll gladly agree to meet face to face for a more genial and potentially more effective exchange of ideas on commuting in Northern VA.

NoSb

SOV because you can, HOV because you care!


Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 2:04pm
Stop whining, PennyP. We're all big boys and girls here. You have two tools to use on this board: words and your wit. (Maybe wisdom, too, but that is not a requirement.) If you can't keep up, get thee to the sidelines.

Now, if your points are good, we'll accept them. If not....

So far you have offered HOV-2 and paving more lanes and allowing even more SOV's into the carpool lanes.

What, did you just get done reading the Fluor plan to build a private concession inside the public conveyance?


Posted By: PennyPrius
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 2:08pm
Not a whiner at all, but if the shoe fits...
Do we all agree that things are not good the way they are?


Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 2:23pm
Good point Penny! (that is, in the form of a question).

More people per vehicle (pick your poison, er, type of vehicle) WILL remove vehicles from the mix which provides all kinds of additional benefits.

They can't build enough roads for everyone to ride SOV like we, as Americans, have a propensity to do.

HOV-2 only adds more vehicles to the road.

HOV-4, which wasn't considered during discussions surrounding HOT, seems a more logical choice. Even HOV-40 makes more sense although it will require a really big influx of bus companies to absorb what HOV-3 currently carries. Whole nuther set of issues with HOV-40 that would need to be explored too...

One observation, a hybrid traveling SOV at any time does nothing to reduce congestion which increases emissions and complicates parking problems.

With your permission, I'd like to refer back to one of your earliest posts concerning something to the effect of being "upwardly mobile". There are lots of people who need to travel daily who aren't "upwardly mobile" (by many different understandings of the definition). Many of these need to slug. Many of them don't read this website, they're too busy doing many of the "less mobile" tasks that need to occur to make things work around here. Many are on hourly wages and only get paid when on the clock. Granting them a bit of grace in their quandry, which is all about getting to work on time, would seem to be the order of the day.

Things can be better, agreed. Just not sure SOV hybrids and HOV-2 will result in those. Convince me.

NoSb

SOV because you can, HOV because you care!


Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 3:17pm
NoSB, you are wasting your time. PennyP hasn't thought about these issues long enough to form a considered opinion. HOV-2? More lanes?

Time spent arguing these points is time we could spend drinking.

Now, PennyP asked, "Do we all agree that things are not good the way they are?"

And the answer is: No, we do not all agree that things are not good.

We have the world's BEST HOV SYSTEM. It moves More People, Faster, Farther, and with Less Eco-Impact, than any other form of transportation in our region.

Those are facts you can find in VDOT's December 2005 report.

Can we make the carpool lanes even more efficient? Yes.

How? Try HOV-4, more and bigger and better designed commuter lots, a PR campaign to encourage carpooling and busriding, more Omniride routes, later and earlier Omniride routes, subsidized Omniride routes, state-subsidized vanpools, longer hours for HOV, tax-incentives for carpoolers, better and more frequent policing, and so on.

Oh, we have plenty of ideas around here.

My personal favorite is the re-striping of Horner Road to allow for at last another 300-500 cars. Easy to do and cheap.

You were saying, PennyP?


Posted By: PennyPrius
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 3:25pm
Sponge,
Are you some sort of seer? How do you know how long I have thought about these topics? Your ignorance and arrongance don't amaze me, they just annoy me!

If things were so good, then why do you have suggestions to change/improve them? Obviously they could be better if you offer suggestions to improve them. Think before thy type!

PS, Your attempts at humiliation and bullying WILL NOT WORK ON ME! Perhaps they work on others here, but OOOPS, not me. [:)]


Posted By: PennyPrius
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 3:36pm
quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]Periodically, PennyP, we have a new troll like you who shows up to tell us how selfish we are for carpooling and "keeping the lanes for ourselves."

These new trolls often use the "U" word: under-utilized.

It is the dead giveaway that we are talking to a Toll Road Troll. Would you happen to be an employee of one of the companies that wants to make money by stealing the taxpayer-built carpool lanes on I95?

Your arguments are invalid and have been refuted on this board so many times over the years that we have little left but scorn to heap on your anti-carpooling mentality.





I own a Hybrid, I live in PW County, I ride the HOV lanes during restricted hours on occaison. Would I slug if I did it daily? perhaps. Do you slug or drive? I am sorry I don't know your backround as far as commuting goes. I admit, I am new to posting here. I am not a troll, nor an employee of any HOT LANE company. Just an average Joe who is glad they don't commute daily in this region.


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 4:29pm
Hey Sponge! If we have the "world's BEST HOV SYSTEM," then why do we have almost the worst commuting time in the country? Could it be that (gasp) we have the WORST HOV SYSTEM?

Perhaps if the slugging system never caught on, then we WOULD have a comprehensive transportation solution that would not only work now, but for the next decade as well.

There are numerous regions in the US with a greater population density. They don't use a slug system, and they have shorter commuting times. Hmmm.


Posted By: SlugsB1tch2Much
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 5:10pm
*sigh*


Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 5:26pm
Really, SB2M.

All you can do is laugh.


Posted By: SlugsB1tch2Much
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 7:05pm
Yep, I feel like the name of the thread should be:
"Idiots Who Miss the Point About Every Aspect of Commuting in Northern Virginia: A Case Study of PennyPrius et al."


Posted By: PennyPrius
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2006 at 11:50pm
It just gets better!
When someone makes a valid point all you can do is "sigh" or make stupid snide remarks. Oh, I forgot, if it isn't your opinion, then it isn't. This ones for you Spongie and Slugbit!


Posted By: SlugsB1tch2Much
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2006 at 12:42am
What is valid about your point? You have no quantitative data that directly supports the notion that HOV-2 would in fact alleviate congestion nor do you have any quantitative data that directly supports the notion that the HOV lane is underutilized. What are we to believe? PennyPrius' experience driving herself to work? You and many others are the same, you use weasel words and make unsubstatiated claims. Trust me, this idea of yours isn't original, many other dumbasses concocted the same points. Valid my ass.


Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2006 at 7:56am
Ok, y'all sold me. Trolls abound in this thread.

the ones who sold me aren't the reliable posters of old, the ones who convinced me are the posters who are indeed trolls...I too sigh at this point...

The best thing about slugging is it WORKS no matter how many politicians, car companies, tollroad administrators, misled hybrid zealots pile on to tell us of the "dangers" (huh, what dangers?) and the wrong-headedness of riding in a "stranger's" vehicle. Slugging WORKS, period.

Less cars, less pollution, less parking challenges, quicker commutes, more interesting people met, the list goes on.

Slugging works.

NoSb

SOV because you can, HOV because you care!


Posted By: PennyPrius
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2006 at 8:24am
I have never stated that slugging is bad at all. I feel from observation on my part that the HOV lanes are under utilized and that there is way too much congestion on the regular lanes.

That being said, I think that in order to alleviate some of the congestion on the regular lanes, something needs to be done. Many of the regular lane drivers perhaps have valid reasons for not being able to slug (which is a wonderful concept)I am sure the reasons are as varied as the drivers. I would even venture to say that some of the reasons are selfishness, lack of concern for the environment and more, but some of it has to do with timing or where these folks work.

So, I think that something needs to be done. Without building more roads, in other words using the assets we have, we should be able to come up with a solution(s). Staggered work hours, making the HOV lanes available to more people, improving mass transit options,etc.

That is all I have been saying inbetween defending myself from the 2 or 3 of you who are predators on this site and attack anyone who dares have differing or already discussed views.

This medium is wonderful to have, but not everyone got here the first day, week or year it began so discussions will likely be repeated time and again. Sorry for your lack of patience. Perhaps that is why you all are so protective of maintaining the HOV-3 rules. No patience.


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2006 at 8:52am
Gee, no valid response? Let me post it again:

If we have the "world's BEST HOV SYSTEM," then why do we have almost the worst commuting time in the country? Could it be that (gasp) we have the WORST HOV SYSTEM?

Perhaps if the slugging system never caught on, then we WOULD have a comprehensive transportation solution that would not only work now, but for the next decade as well.

There are numerous regions in the US with a greater population density. They don't use a slug system, and they have shorter commuting times. Hmmm.


Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2006 at 10:00am
>>> Reply moved to general section <<<


Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2006 at 10:16am
One unique factor to our region is the fact we are driven by a corridor in which to commute for VA. This in turn was driven by a couple factors that many who've never studied terrain might not appreciate.

In Houston, for example, there are multiple routes from which to choose in order to get to find your way around that metropolis. When one route crumps, drivers simply reroute to an alternate route. I-95/395 and Route 1 hardly compare to the situations available elsewhere.

Don't think you're gonna bulldoze all those high-rent homes for more roads either to provide the kind of flex available elsewhere (newbies to this region don't catch this difference in their early years here).

Consider more factors when making an accusation about "best hov system" vs "worst hov system". One can have the BEST HOV system and still have a terrible commute which only gets worse with additional SOVs in the HOV lanes. Maybe if you consider things from a holistic point of view you'll come out closer to the truth of the matter. Just a thought.

NoSb

SOV because you can, HOV because you care!


Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2006 at 11:24am
Question: "...why do we have almost the worst commuting time in the country?"

Answer: because there are far more people who commute from the sub/exurbs into DC proper than in ANY other US city. While many other cities have commuters who travel daily from place to place for their jobs (LA, NY, Houston, Chicago), DC has far more commuters who travel to ONE place every day.

Example: in NY (the number 1 worst US commute), the population in Manhattan does not grow nearly as much during a work-weekday as DC does. NY has far more Manhattan workers who also live in the city, as well as those who commute to other boroughs for jobs. The population in DC grows each workday morning from the +-600,000 residents, to Millions as government workers fill the offices in government buildings each day.

The TRUTH is that we DO have one of the most effective and best people-moving systems in our "HOV/Slug/Carpooling" system. We should be grateful that we can commute via the HOV express lanes. Why would anyone want to mess with a good thing? Ask you local politician!


Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2006 at 3:15pm
To say that HOV is causing us to have the second longest commutes in the country, and that we have the worst HOV system in the country, drifts so far into the realms of pure idiocy, ass-like obstinance, willful blindness, and self-delusional prating ignorance, that I fear Ole NoSUV is finally losing his mind.

Pity him, for he (apparently) know not what he typeth.

I'm sure the I395 HOV lanes are having an effect on people in Rockville riding the Metro. Yeah, right. What a maroon.


Posted By: slugjo
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2006 at 3:43pm
Too Funny! There was a Bugs Bunny cartoon where he used the insults "what a maroon, what a imbessell, what a in-cow-poop!" I think Penny Priapus and NoSUV are the same troll. NoSUV is occasionally correct about some things, but when he is wrong (often) it is very entertaining.


Posted By: PennyPrius
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2006 at 7:44am
<=======Not a troll


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2006 at 8:18am
So, let's review:

This is the only region that uses a slug system.
This region is not in the top 5 of highest population density.
This region has the 2nd worst commute.

No cause and effect? Hmmm.


Posted By: slugjo
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2006 at 8:39am
Sorry Penny. Spongebob, Raymond, et al., once again, NoSUV has demonstrated his inability to evaluate the validity of his own argument. Being much greater intellectual giants than he, I'm sure you can easily refute his latest.


Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2006 at 9:39am
Every morning I log on here and, to my never-ending surprise, I find that NoSUV has topped all his previous efforts with another brilliant display of illogicity.

Is it conceivable that he cannot see the logical fallacy of his "argument" above?

Really, I mean, willful blindness only goes so far. What this looks like is calculated taunting. He knows perfectly well that what he is saying is B.S., but he says it anyway simply to continue the sniping.

It is a classic troll maneuver.


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2006 at 10:33am
Nice answer, Sponge - as usual, irrelevant and pointless. Still trying to soak up how the "best" HOV system causes nearly the worst congestion?


Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2006 at 11:05am
Pointless? Me? A sponge? Of course I'm pointless, you moron, I'm a rectangle! But I'm irreverent, not irrelevant.

Ahem. So "HOV causes congestion"?

Carpooling ALLEVIATES congestion. Slugging is a form of carpooling.

Solo driving ADDS to congestion: on the carpool lanes as well as at your destination.

So let's see how your argument works: Hmmm... DC traffic is worse now than it was two years ago... what's different... Hmmm... could it be, er, hybrids?

By your "logic", NoSUV, hybrids could be the cause of worsening congestion, since they happen to be driven on the region's roads.

(Don't get all confused and think I believe that. I'm just demonstrating the inherent fallacy of your cum hoc ergo propter hoc argument.)


Posted By: slugjo
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2006 at 11:10am
WOW! He did it again! Spongebob, that's why I won't engage him in discussion. A person with no credibility or ability to conduct an intelligent conversation is best ignored. Maybe you've noticed, but he has never replied to me, either. Maybe in his twisted logic he thinks I have no credibility. This is fun.


Posted By: PennyPrius
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2006 at 12:19pm
Perhaps congestion on our roadways could be because this is a growth region of the country as well as adding certain vehicle types to the HOV lanes.

Of course these facts will be refuted by the sponges et al of the world but oh well.

National average population growth 200-2005 is 5.3% The regional growth here is 6.9%. I wonder how many of the folks that moved here have cars. I will go out on a limb and say most of them do so it is no wonder that congestion is getting worse.

I will also suggest that hybrid drivers might have at one time been slugs but found that system less appealing than driving on their own. Now that may add to the congestion, but I still see little evidence suggesting that there is a need to limit hybrids from the HOV lanes so far. Perhaps if hybrids continue to gain in popularity it will become necassary to change the rules, but not yet. However, hybrid sales have gone flat or decreased over the last few months.

Now that fuel prices have gone down, I would think hybrid sales witll continue to plummit.

Pennyprius<=============not a troll.


Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2006 at 1:56pm
Thanks for the stats, Penny, they reinforce the argument in favor of carpooling/sluging that most forum participants support.

Also while many SOV hybrid drivers tout MPGs and ecological concerns as their noble motivation to endorse hybrids, you honestly state that you prefer driving on your own. And although I still think all DC commuters should carpool, your lack of pretention is refreshing.

Thanks for the breath of fresh air!


Posted By: PennyPrius
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2006 at 3:21pm
Thank you Raymond.

Without boring the group with the details, yes I did go hybrid for the cost savings in fuel first, HOV exemption second. Now that I know it tweaks some of the arrogant posters on here, I have a third reason to love my HOV exempt-2005 Toyota Prius with option package 6-(all the bells and whistles)

<============Not a troll


Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2006 at 10:26am
PennyPrius <-------------------- a troll


Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2006 at 12:17pm
PP, for what it is worth... why don't you go back to the Sponge's very first ever post on this board -- October 6, 2004...

(Twilight Zone sound effect...) "The question to ask is whatever happened to the huge lot we were promised at I95 and Rte. 234? I went to a public discussion on it in mid-2001, and VDOT's rep said they would do it, even that they HAD to do it. Now look, they are building a conference center there (like that'll ever work!)

The pressure on Horner comes from four things:
1. PWC population has grown from 280,813 in 2000 to estimated (by PWC) 341,077 people. That is 61,000 in less than four years.
2. New home construction has been concentrated along the I-66 and I-95 corridors, but the I-95 corridor is zoned for greater density.
3. Stafford and Fredericksburg are growing almost as fast as PWC, and if you travel north driving solo, the first regular back-up you come to is around Horner Road.
4. The BIG PROBLEM is that NOT ONE SINGLE COMMUTER PARKING SPACE has been constructed on the eastern end of the county since the expansion of the 234 lot back in 2000/2001. NOT ONE! Yet we add tens of thousands of people.

It's only going to get worse."
----------------------------------------
OK. Got anything NEW to add, PP?

We're all so glad you're here to tell us that the problem is growth. Whodathunkit?

Don't go crying to mommy about the bullies, please. [B)]


Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2006 at 9:54am
PP,

Your stated reasons do seem to indicate a bit of selfish interest and not the altruistic motives you have wished to rightly claim as your rationale for buying a hybrid. The admission of SOV in HOV lanes as a reason for purchasing only serves to further reveal who you REALLY ARE and not who you'd like to view yourself as being.

It is really simple, but those who buy hybrids would like to think otherwise (so they can continue to think they are "holier-than-thou"), more cars on the road equals more congestion. Not just on the roads, but in the parking lots. SOV equals more cars on the road. Most who aren't blinded by false claims in order to make themselves feel better, get that. Those who don't see that, won't get it.

NoSUV has finally arrived to the point where even his somewhat salient points early on are completely lost in the latest attempts to attribute congestion to HOV.

NoSb

SOV because you can, HOV because you care!


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2006 at 11:45am
Actually, I remain firm in my belief that all new vehicles should be either hybrids or alternate fuel. At the same time, our regular lanes are clogged, and slugging has been around for a few decades. We need to follow the path from where we are to where we need to be, and the answer is that either the legislature needs to limit what can be sold in the region (has to be national or else people will just go to a different state to make their purchase) or find an incentive to guide consumer decisions. I, for one, prefer for those incentives to NOT be taxpayer based.

Toll roads are a possible solution with hybrid/CSF exemption and the revenue generated going to subsidize public transportation (take an express bus to/from current slug line for $1/trip).

Nearly every week there's another article about the affects of global warming, and every other week an article about dwindling fuel supplies. And still, how many of you have purchased a vehicle within the last 5 years that isn't a hybrid/CSF? Would your purchasing decision been different if you couldn't get into the express lanes unless you were in one?


Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2006 at 12:24pm
No one really disagrees that hybrids are, by and large, "better" for the environment than regular vehicles. One day, most vehicles in this country will use some form of the hybrid engine, and that will be a good thing.

But it does not necessarily follow that the government should therefore promote solo driving over carpooling, or create a special class of privileges for those who can afford the latest technology.

Nor do we need the government to guide consumer decisions. Hybrids are being advertised all over the TV, if you haven't noticed. Even Clinton bought one. He didn't need a carpool-lane exemption as incentive, either.

Unlike you, there are some hybrid buyers who do it for unselfish reasons. And others for whom the gas savings is reason enough.


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2006 at 12:40pm
quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]
Unlike you, there are some hybrid buyers who do it for unselfish reasons. And others for whom the gas savings is reason enough.


It's not the hybrid buyers who are the problem, Sponge. It's the non-hybrid buyers!

How do we get EVERYONE to buy a hybrid over a conventional vehicle, Sponge?


Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2006 at 1:04pm
So, NoSUV, you say everyone else is the problem? NoSUV is sane and the rest of the world is crazy? Sounds like you need to get a new shrink! Just because everyone does not do as you do, does not make us wrong. NoSUV, the problem with your hybrid is there is a loose nut behind the wheel!

Not only is your assertion incorrect, it is just plain lunacy! First, hybrids are not the only choice in our search for solutions. Second, hybrids have their own set of problems (detailed in previous posts). Third, it is not reasonable to assume that EVERYONE will do any one thing. Fourth, for a solution to earn widespread adoption, it must require as little change in established habits as possible. The additional costs associated with hybrids makes that inprobable. Take away all the incentives and hybrids will disappear like you do when confronted with reason.

BTW, this is America, and we have a little thing here called freedom of choice (look it up). Anyone who asserts that EVERYONE should do anything is either a communist of an idiot. Which are you? Your comments are obvious attempts to inflame, and they have. Like fuel for any a reasonable position, your arguments go up in smoke!


Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2006 at 1:14pm
NoSUV through his troll alter egos, wants to open up HOV to HOV2 regular cars, then keep the hybrid exemption for SOV hybrids. OF course that screws the HOV3 and slugging. Then he says that everyone should be hybrid, presumably eventually with HOV also. Sorry, but if you implemented hybrid+HOV, the utilzation of HOV lanes would plummet. That negates his argument that we need more utilization of the HOV lanes.

He is just spewing garbage because he has been trashed so many times.


Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2006 at 1:49pm
Easy Raymond. That was a decent post by NoSUV. There are good points to be made.

As to my purchasing decisions (I'm not seeking affirmation, but seeking to illuminate the "why" as to currently owned vehicles)....

I believe in having less debt in my budget. That is sound from any number of perspectives. Most reliable financial advisors would suggest not carrying vehicle debt. My vehicles are paid for.

I have a 2000 and a 2001 vehicle. The 2000 gets an average of 28 mpg combined hwy/city driving. The 2001 is a truck which gets used regularly as a truck (e.g. not a pretty boy city SUV crossgender vehicle). It only gets 18 if I pay attention to my driving habits.

The 2000 vehicle has 126K on it. It's only about one-third of the way thru it's lifecycle in my estimation. The 2001 has 79K and will make it a good many years beyond the 2000...working as a truck.

Paid for vehicles, even getting less mileage, still in the prime of their service life, make a pretty strong case for me to be able to do plenty else with my dollars--some selfishly and some spent less selfishly.

By the time these vehicles come to their time for the boneyard, there will be technologies (maybe gas/elec hybrid) that are viable and helpful to any number of "problems" claimed and proven. The technologies will be proven by that point too. A question comes up though: should one then buy "old" hybrid technology or pay top dollar for "unproven" technologies that will emerge in about 10 years? Quite the quandry for one who doesn't believe in constantly feeding the "marketing monsters" that are out there telling us what we need or should have. Guilt is an interesting marketing tool that many are going to start using since there is a slow-down in the marketplace that is on the horizon (if not already here). PP even mentioned that in a previous post concerning slowing hybrid sales.

Glad to see this thread return to more redeeming and cordial dialogue.

NoSb

SOV because you can, HOV because you care!


Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2006 at 2:50pm
I assert that some evolved form of the hybrid engine will eventually crawl out of the primoridal ooze and reign supreme in the final days of the combustion engine.

Exhibit A would be the ads we saw during the Redskins' [xx(] game -- the ads for the new Lexus RX300h, with the "h" for hybrid.

Toyota didn't make that ad because of carpool lane access.

They think you will buy the vehicle, as they say in the ad itself, to save gas and be a little better for the environment.

NoSUV, you failed, again, to get my point: there are incentives at work beyond what the government need do.
Gas prices alone make hybrids more attractive on the dealer lot.
Climate change fears drive some purchases.
And others, like my best friend, hate the impact of Big Oil on the global political scene, so they'll do anything to fight it.


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2006 at 3:01pm
quote:
Originally posted by raymond
[br]So, ... Just because everyone does not do as you do, does not make us wrong. ...

... First, hybrids are not the only choice in our search for solutions. Second, hybrids have their own set of problems (detailed in previous posts). Third, it is not reasonable to assume that EVERYONE will do any one thing. Fourth, for a solution to earn widespread adoption, it must require as little change in established habits as possible. The additional costs associated with hybrids makes that inprobable. Take away all the incentives and hybrids will disappear ...

BTW, this is America, and we have a little thing here called freedom of choice (look it up). Anyone who asserts that EVERYONE should do anything is either a communist of an idiot. ...


raymond - all of what you say can also be applied to slugs.
"Just because ..." - yep, same for slug system.
"First...not the only solution." - same for slug system.
"Second...problems." Actually, the problems cited about hybrids have been debunked. The problems with the slug system remain (as does the 2nd worst congestion EVEN THOUGH (or is it because) of the region using informal car pools.
"Third..." - still same for slug system.
"Forth..." - actually, the slug system is MORE of a change from standard norms. That's one of the reasons no other area really uses it.


Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2006 at 3:33pm
Like playing tennis against a wall. The bonehead responses just keep coming back. No reason, no sense, no direction, they just bounce back. Yep, NoSUV is a communist and an idiot.


Posted By: PennyPrius
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2006 at 11:14pm
three pages back I said that if we exempt one group, (motorcycles) and another, cops, where do we draw the line. Some of you said motorcycles are a safety reason. That sounds good to me too. Hybrid exemptions sound good to me as well since they ease some of the congestion on the non-HOV lanes. We can go round and round on this and still come up with the same answer. Things need to change and soon.

And, please don't tell me that slugs are so environmentally concious. I don't buy it for a minute. Sure some are, just as hybrid owners may be, but some others do it for other reasons. Lack of parking, lack of extra vehicles, convenience, not liking to drive, and the list goes on. So don't try to tell me that slugs are good and hybrid SOV's are bad. I don't buy it for a minute.

And finally, do you think repeatedly calling me a troll has an impact on what I think or say? Oh, it does, but not about slugging or the hybrid issue, just about some of the immature morons who poplulate this planet. BTW, you know who you all are. I would imagine you are the same jerks I see out and about in stores and other public venues that are oblivious to the rest of the world and only think about themselves. I see them every day on my job as well.
<==========not a troll, never was, never will be.


Posted By: scottt
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2006 at 9:41am
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]
quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]
Unlike you, there are some hybrid buyers who do it for unselfish reasons. And others for whom the gas savings is reason enough.


It's not the hybrid buyers who are the problem, Sponge. It's the non-hybrid buyers!

How do we get EVERYONE to buy a hybrid over a conventional vehicle, Sponge?



I'd buy one if you'd give me the $8000 more it would cost to get one (over the car I purchased).


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2006 at 10:00am
scottt - ah, a taxpayer financed incentive, you say. Can you think of a non-taxpayer incentive that will get you to buy a hybrid?


Posted By: scottt
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2006 at 9:16am
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]scottt - ah, a taxpayer financed incentive, you say. Can you think of a non-taxpayer incentive that will get you to buy a hybrid?



Sure, lower the price of the Hybrid. I didn't have the extra $8k in 2005 (when I got my car) to get a Hybrid, and I don't have it now.

And I wasn't asking for a taxpayer incentive. I was asking you to cough up the $8,000.


Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2006 at 9:42am
Please don't ask NoSUV to cough up anything! God knows what we'll end up with. [:0]

The high-bred extension served its purpose, and I think it was a good thing to have. It did encourage people to buy an expensive vehicle they might not have splurged on otherwise.

But the need for that incentive is now gone. People are snapping up hybrids across the country, without ANY carpool lanes exemptions, simply because of gas prices. And the manufacturers are now promoting the vehicles left and right.

Between gas prices and the power of advertising, high-breds are the new SUV's of our time -- soon Toyota or Honda or somebody is going to announce that their entire fleet is available in hybrid form.

So let's not bash hybrids -- let's promote carpooling.


Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2006 at 1:20pm
Agreed. I have always restricted my bashing to SOV hybrids and psudo-eco, and egocentric high-bred drivers. As I have said many times, I am neutral on the product, its the loose nuts behind the wheel that deserve our bashing.

Carpooling rules! We need to look at these discussions from a Passenger MPG / emmissions per passenger comparison perspective. That is really embarrassing for SOV hybrid drivers (who thought they could just buy their way to eco-consciousness without doing anything positive). And there is the argument in favor of HOVs! Of course we carpoolers knoew it all along!


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2006 at 8:00am
raymond - you still need to account for ALL miles.


Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2006 at 10:08am
I will when you do! Remember, your hybrid burns gas too.


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2006 at 10:24pm
Oh, but I have accounted for the mpg and emissions both commuting and non commuting - you are the one who won't because the hybrid advantage is so obvious.


Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2006 at 2:46pm
Hybrid advantage? Hmmmmm, oh you mean for the auto dealer! Yea, when people pay extra for an inferior product with obsolete technology it really is an advantage for hybrid dealers. You go right ahead and do what you want, its a free country, but keep you nose out of my trunk! And keep your SOV hybrid off the HOV lanes; get eco-smart and pick up some carpoolers!


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2006 at 2:56pm
raymond - thanks for proving my point better than I could ever do by myself. What you've shown is that the mpg and emissions when considering both commuting and non-commuting mileage favors hybrids.
Appreciate the assistance.


Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2006 at 3:08pm
Wait, your idiocy is running rampant and I can't keep up.

Please explain it again to me how 100 PMPG (25MPG carpooler with 4 passengers) is less efficient that a 40 MPG SOV hybrid. Even if HOV commuting accounts for only 1/2 of my total miles (and dad's taxi service adds many, many more HOV miles), that still puts my PMPG at at least 50. Last I heard 50 is still more than 40 (if you get 40 SOV MPGs).

You're a loose nut behind the wheel!


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2006 at 3:14pm
4 passengers? I guess you always take a 3rd. You, though, are in the minority, based on postings in the general comments sections. And commuting takes up 1/2 of your miles? Either you are rich and fly everywhere or you never go anywhere. Again, you are in the minority. No surprise. And your taxi service is more than mine? Could be - but I doubt it.



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