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Hybrid Congestion

Printed From: Slug-Lines.com
Category: Archived Slugging Topics
Forum Name: Hybrids
Forum Description: This area is devoted to the discussion of hybrid vehicles and their impact to the HOV.
URL: http://www.slug-lines.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3066
Printed Date: 22 Nov 2017 at 9:06pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Hybrid Congestion
Posted By: darkprime
Subject: Hybrid Congestion
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2006 at 8:13am
Just a thought, but the top three most congested traffic regions in the country: LA, San Fran, and DC, all have some sort of hybrid exemptions for their HOV lanes.



Replies:
Posted By: Luddite
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2006 at 9:17am
Hybrids Killed HOV.


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2006 at 9:30am
Just another thought - LA and San Fran are huge compared with DC. Why is DC in the same category? Could it be the slug system that causes the DC problem? After all, it seems logical that mass transit would ease congestion. Isn't that how slugs got their name? From cheating the mass transit system?


Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2006 at 9:30am
By very definition, SOVs in HOV have replaced the H with an S, ergo HOV no longer exists. Simple substitution.

NoSb

SOV because you can, HOV because you care!


Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2006 at 10:45am
What percentage of the days would you say that the regular lanes on the 395 part are actually moving faster than the HOVs on average from Springfield? I say 50-70 percent. Mostly because of hybrids. Overall, the total hov system is still much faster because of the Occoquan, but the northern part is getting seriously congested, especially in midweek.


Posted By: darkprime
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2006 at 11:20am
Just this morning the main lanes traveled at the same pace or faster between Lorton and Crystal City (6:50-7:25). The same thing has been happening more and more. I was reading an article on the washingtonpost.com from a year ago in which it said the HOV lanes were operating with 400-500 more cars per lane per hour than rated for. Fast forward another year and I beleive that number has grown tremendously. As for Buses to move all these people, where are they? There's extremely few buses that exist to pick up people between Fredericksburg and Woodbridge.


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2006 at 1:33pm
I can only speak to I395. For the majority of the trip both ways, express lanes move faster than the regular. For regular, the backups from Edsall to around Exit 5 have vehicles moving an AVERAGE (not maximum) of about 15-20 mph. On the express lanes, I've lately noticed slowdowns at the merge from both Seminary and Shirlington - which I attribute to buses. Despite the slowdown, I AVERAGE the speed limit until the Pentagon back up.

For the return trip, it is rare that the express lanes travel slower than the speed limit; i.e., the MINIMUM is the speed limit. On the regular lanes, however, they NEVER get to the speed limit, and have a tremendous back up around exit 4 when they lose a lane.

I travel in the am from 6:30 to 7: 30 depending on work schedule, and I leave the office during all times for the express lane restrictions.

The answer to your question, Bob, is for the overall length of I395, the regular lanes NEVER travel faster than the express lanes. Perhaps you can get one of the drivers to travel the regular lanes with you and keep in cell phone contact with someone being picked up at the same time who travels in the express lanes and check for yourself. You will clearly see that the express lanes travel faster then the regular lanes 100% of the time over the length of the interstate.


Posted By: CatHerder
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2006 at 2:07pm
I figure this is a taste of things to come with the toll road. As for congestion around Springfield, I think it comes from people still moving onto the HOV to bypass the interchange, plus the increase in the number of cars overall.


Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2006 at 11:46am
This is all meaningless personalized speculation unsupported by data. We do not have a complete traffic study of the lanes showing how many vehicles of what kinds at what speeds at what times coming from and going to where.

You'd think the toll road investors would want that data, but they didn't ask for it for the Beltway toll road project. They used a simple traffic projection and overlaid guesses from other toll roads in other parts of the country.

So who knows what causes the morning backups --- it could be...
Excess and/or increased number of vehicles?
Poor ramp design?
Too few exits?
Too many entrances?
Weather?
Time of year?
Pentagon or Federal work shift policies?
The fact that the commuter lots all fill at the same time so everyone leaves at the same time, regardless of their work schedule?

We don't know the answers to these questions, presenting another perfect opportunity for the Sponge to wax eloquent! [:o)]


Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2007 at 3:47pm
Choke points! Many thousands of commuters coming from suburban VA (and MD), converge on DC via four or five bridge access points each morning, and exit the city the same way each night. Sponge has indicated several problems with the area's highway design, all aggrivate congestion at these choke points.


Posted By: Luddite
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2007 at 8:44pm
But the water is so pretty.


Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2007 at 2:32pm
Another interesting discussion that deserves to be bumped up above all the spam.

A little help from the site admin; there seems to be lots of junk messages lately.


Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2007 at 7:39pm
raymond,
Someone may view those postings as "offers just too good to pass up"! [:p]
But, for the life of me, I can't figure out who. [:I]


Posted By: tangelo53
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2007 at 4:10pm
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]Just another thought - LA and San Fran are huge compared with DC. Why is DC in the same category? Could it be the slug system that causes the DC problem? After all, it seems logical that mass transit would ease congestion. Isn't that how slugs got their name? From cheating the mass transit system?


No SUV..it has been a while since I have been on this forum, and your posts crack me up every time I read them. Are you seriously saying that slugging clogs up HOV lanes but SOV Hybrids don't? HUH???? And to talk about cheating.....nah, I won't even waste my time!


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2007 at 9:26am
tangelo - the DC area per the census bureau is the 8th largest metro area, but it has either the 2nd or 3rd worst commute, depending on which source you want to use. It's also the only area that has a slug system. Coincedence? Nope.

As you have pointed out in another post, at times the slug line is rather long. What would happen if all of the slugs were on mass transit instead of private vehicles? Would the number of cars on the road go down? OF COURSE!

That clears the relatively minor jam in the express lanes, but doesn't help the regular lanes out. Solution? Pull some of the vehicles from the regular lanes into the express lanes and everybody wins. EVERYBODY.

However, a discriminator needs to be made between which cars can go in the express lanes, and which cannot. With global warming a, well, global concern, it makes sense to use the discriminator of SULEV - and it's been proven in Virginia that such an incetive works VERY WELL.

The other possibility is through a fee, which might be referred to as a toll. In this case, you would have to charge ALL vehicles more than the price of mass transit, which would put the slugs where they belong on buses and allow folks with too much money in the regular lanes a way to buy their way out of the congestion.

Which do you prefer? We all know the current situation won't work...


Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2007 at 11:08am
I think I've seen the light. Slugging causes long commutes! Amazing!


Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2007 at 12:08pm
NoSUV and Al Gore, now there's a pair! I suspect its an affair of convenience though, NoSUVs convenience. It is convenient for NoSUV to cozy up to the ecological right-wingers and claim allegiance, as long as it supports NoSUVs POV. But since you don't participate in slugging, what do you care?

Of course I could do the same thing if I wanted to buy my way into psuedo-ecological good graces. But I'm considering a hybrid SUV and driving to work alone; does that still count? I guess, by NoSUVs standards it would, even though a number of traditional cars get better gas mileage. But I would have to change my screen name to YeSUV!


Posted By: scottt
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2007 at 1:33pm
According to NoSUV's logic, the following cars should also be allowed in the HOV's lanes as SOV's.

VOLKSWAGEN NEW BEETLE
CHEVROLET COBALT
PONTIAC G5
MAZDA 3
FORD FOCUS

Just to name a few.....

---------
Still waiting for NoSUV to put up or shut up.


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2007 at 2:27pm
quote:
Originally posted by MDC
[br]I think I've seen the light. Slugging causes long commutes! Amazing!


MDC - FINALLY! It took you long enough. Slugging was a good idea back in the 90's, but now is the major cause of our congestion problems. ALL of those slugs should be on mass transit. Then and only then will the commute get shorter for everyone.


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2007 at 2:29pm
quote:
Originally posted by scottt
[br]According to NoSUV's logic, the following cars should also be allowed in the HOV's lanes as SOV's.

VOLKSWAGEN NEW BEETLE
CHEVROLET COBALT
PONTIAC G5
MAZDA 3
FORD FOCUS

Just to name a few.....

---------
Still waiting for NoSUV to put up or shut up.


If they are SULEV, then yes.
---
Still waiting for scottt to put up or shut up.


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2007 at 2:33pm
quote:
Originally posted by raymond
[br]NoSUV and Al Gore, now there's a pair! I suspect its an affair of convenience though, NoSUVs convenience. It is convenient for NoSUV to cozy up to the ecological right-wingers and claim allegiance, as long as it supports NoSUVs POV. But since you don't participate in slugging, what do you care?

Of course I could do the same thing if I wanted to buy my way into psuedo-ecological good graces. But I'm considering a hybrid SUV and driving to work alone; does that still count? I guess, by NoSUVs standards it would, even though a number of traditional cars get better gas mileage. But I would have to change my screen name to YeSUV!


raymond, I know you have problems remembering things, but surely you can remember that my hybrid was purchased without the need for the HOV exemption.

If you are currently a driver, you should absolutely buy a SULEV - whether or not you pick up slugs. Hopefully, the slug system will become Overcome By Events and become a footnote in a historical file - after all, that's the only way the congestion problem will be solved while improving the environment. Slugs need to get out of private vehicles and into mass transit.


Posted By: TheRev
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2007 at 8:07am
NoSUV - Please explain your position that the demise of the Slug system will fix the congestion problem since they will all be riding mass transit?


Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2007 at 3:04pm
Rev, if you flip back to some of NoSUVs previous rants, er..., I mean posts, you'll see that NoSUV advocates solutions for other peoples problems, and then will not participate in the very solution NoSUV proposes. NoSUV does not participate in slugging and does not ride mass transit.

Kind of puts this conversation into perspective, dosen't it?!


Posted By: TheRev
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2007 at 3:38pm
raymond - Correct, but I want to hear the "real" reasons NoSUV believes the demise of the Slug lines will cure the congestion, not what has been posted.


Posted By: CallmeMrSlug
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2007 at 3:58pm
The "real" reason is that it will curb his personal congestion not having anything but hybrids and buses on the HOV.


Posted By: scottt
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2007 at 9:15am
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
MDC - FINALLY! It took you long enough. Slugging was a good idea back in the 90's, but now is the major cause of our congestion problems. ALL of those slugs should be on mass transit. Then and only then will the commute get shorter for everyone.



Hmmm, if I slug, commute time is about 50 mins. If I take mass transit, it's about 1.5 hours. And that's shorter how?

---------
Still waiting for NoSUV to put up or shut up.


Posted By: whatwoodido
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2007 at 2:31pm
And if you drive a hybrid you get to shave off even more time because you don't need to stop and pick up slugs, or wait in a slug line to be picked up.

Hybrids are a problem but not the problem, cheaters are a much bigger problem. Let's keep in mind only one of these two groups is breaking the law. The other is taking advantage of a exemption.

quote:
Originally posted by scottt
[br]
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
MDC - FINALLY! It took you long enough. Slugging was a good idea back in the 90's, but now is the major cause of our congestion problems. ALL of those slugs should be on mass transit. Then and only then will the commute get shorter for everyone.



Hmmm, if I slug, commute time is about 50 mins. If I take mass transit, it's about 1.5 hours. And that's shorter how?

---------
Still waiting for NoSUV to put up or shut up.



Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2007 at 8:21pm
whatwoodido,
This is 2007, not 2003. Back then, if you saw congestion in the HOV lanes, you could blame it on violators(even though there was no congestion). Now, it's almost entirely caused by excess hybrids.


Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 07 May 2007 at 9:55am
Originally posted by whatwoodido
[br]And if you drive a hybrid you get to shave off even more time because you don't need to stop and pick up slugs, or wait in a slug line to be picked up.

Hybrids are a problem but not the problem, cheaters are a much bigger problem. Let's keep in mind only one of these two groups is breaking the law. The other is taking advantage of a exemption.



I agree that cheaters are a problem, but one that will never be entirely fixed.

Hybrids, however, are exploiting and exemption that is as wrong as any kind of discrimination on the planet! Why should anyone get preferrential treatment under the law for their economic status, or for making a purchase decision? Yes it may be legal (for now), but that does not make it right!


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 08 May 2007 at 2:46pm
quote:
Originally posted by raymond
[br]
Originally posted by whatwoodido
[br]And if you drive a hybrid you get to shave off even more time because you don't need to stop and pick up slugs, or wait in a slug line to be picked up.

Hybrids are a problem but not the problem, cheaters are a much bigger problem. Let's keep in mind only one of these two groups is breaking the law. The other is taking advantage of a exemption.




I agree that cheaters are a problem, but one that will never be entirely fixed.

Hybrids, however, are exploiting and exemption that is as wrong as any kind of discrimination on the planet! Why should anyone get preferrential treatment under the law for their economic status, or for making a purchase decision? Yes it may be legal (for now), but that does not make it right!



raymond, the same could be said about car pools. Why are they "priviledged" when they could be using mass transit? Now THAT'S discrimination!

When you really look at it, both hybrid exemption and car pools are DISCRIMINATORS for use of express lanes that other vehicles cannot use. You happen to think that HOV is the "better" discrimination technique - those of us interested in both providing an incentive for consumers to choose SULEV as well as far better fuel economy over conventional vehicles beg to differ. If EVERYONE had a hybrid, just think of how global warming would slow? But maybe you think that if we do it your way, it won't be long before your property is on the waterfront.


Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 09 May 2007 at 12:02am
Get serious. Global warming (or cooling) is driven by factors not of this world and you know it. It matters not what you or I drive.


Posted By: Jody
Date Posted: 09 May 2007 at 10:24am
In the 1970s VDOT saw how the express lanes were under utilized. To ease congestion on the regular lanes, VDOT recommended the law be changed to HOV+4 to allow carpools access to the express lanes. It gave people another choice on how to commute to work. That's not discrimination. The law provided an option for commuting just as it did to NoSUV with the hybrid exemption for HOV.


Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 09 May 2007 at 10:41am
Jody,
The difference is that now, VDOT is saying that the express lanes are overutilized.


Posted By: Jody
Date Posted: 11 May 2007 at 4:25pm
Hi MDC. Since this topic is about hybrid congestion, the VA legislature should enact some of VDOT's recommendations (removing the hybrid exemption or increasing the number of passengers to HOV+4 for car pools/van pools).


Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 11 May 2007 at 6:13pm
I'm sure that HOV4+ is well below ending the SOV exemption for gasoline powered hybrids in the priority list.


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 14 May 2007 at 11:28am
MDC - not even close! Refresh my memory - how many votes were there this year opposing the extension of the hybrid exemption?


Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 14 May 2007 at 7:56pm
If you can convince the legislators that HOV4 is required to maintain SOV hybrids, including those that get ~26MPG, then you are more powerful than even you think.


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 15 May 2007 at 2:26pm
quote:
Originally posted by MDC
[br]If you can convince the legislators that HOV4 is required to maintain SOV hybrids, including those that get ~26MPG, then you are more powerful than even you think.


MDC - again, how many voted against the hybrid exemption?

It must not just be me who is thinking this way...


Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 16 May 2007 at 2:26pm
You didn't answer the point. We already know how many voted to extend your special exemption.

Do you really think they would go to HOV4 before stopping the exemption, or are you just playing the part of an idiot?


Posted By: Jody
Date Posted: 16 May 2007 at 2:46pm
Hi MDC. LOL! The VA legislature definitely displayed their idiocy by their vote.


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 16 May 2007 at 3:18pm
MDC - the answer is likely neither. And, there appears to be no requirement to do either, as well.

However, based on you ALSO not answering the question, it's safe to say that hybrid exemption would likely remain intact - and you must ALSO know that is what would happen based on you playing the idiot by refusing to answer the question.


Posted By: scottt
Date Posted: 17 May 2007 at 8:07am
quote:
Originally posted by RoadRunner
[br]On NBC4.com, there's a slideshow depicting what kind of cars the presidential candidates drive. Out of the 15 slides, a few listed hybrids. Hillary Clinton drives a Ford Hybrid Escape when she's not using Secret Service vehicles. One candidate, Sam Brownback, broke from the pack and drives a Honda Civic Hybrid (how anti-American!) and another drives a Toyota Prius.

Loved Giuliani's answer..."I don't drive, I navigate."

Everyone's trying to jump on the "green" bandwagon.

Here's the link: http://www.nbc4.com/slideshow/news/13318578/detail.html



Not sure if your "anti-American" comment is serious or not. If it is, who do you think made the hybrid system that is in the "American" Ford Escape?
---------
Still waiting for NoSUV to put up or shut up.


Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 21 May 2007 at 9:23pm
NoSUV,
If you paid attention, you would see that I did answer the question. We already know what the vote was, and why people voted that way as it was discussed a couple of months ago.



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