Small Satisfactions re Hybrids
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Category: Archived Slugging Topics
Forum Name: Hybrids
Forum Description: This area is devoted to the discussion of hybrid vehicles and their impact to the HOV.
URL: http://www.slug-lines.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3159
Printed Date: 28 Apr 2024 at 12:46am
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Topic: Small Satisfactions re Hybrids
Posted By: Bob
Subject: Small Satisfactions re Hybrids
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2007 at 2:37pm
We may have lost another round as far as the I95 extension goes, but the freeze provision of last year has resulted in the following:
1. The Prius dealers have been shafted (notice all the new adds offering incentives). Can't give em away.
2. The US taxpayers are now not having to fork out much money in tax credits for this abomination.
Fantastic
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Replies:
Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2007 at 4:57pm
Just a matter of time before we can get the really progressive legislation to make the express lanes hybrid only. After all, nearly every politician and environmental scientist has gone on record that global warming is the most pressing concern because it takes so long to show up. Traffic problems are right in front of us, but pale in significance. Won't be long before the legislature, which unaminously approved the extension, does the right thing for the environment.
Bought your hybrid yet?
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Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2007 at 6:48am
Bob,
Any reason given why "they can't give'em away"?
Are they that bad a car?
Or is it the expense versus comfort of the Prius being such a small car? A new Crown Vic, Charger, or Impala with much more passenger room and trunk space costs about the same and may have the same or better buyer incentives.
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2007 at 8:02am
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I was just being flip. However, one does see a lot of ads for hybrids now, indicating there is a sales slowdown.
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Posted By: darkprime
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2007 at 8:40am
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Yes, it's unfortunate for everyone here on these boards, except NoSUV, that the grandfather clause in HOV exemption was continued, but there's no signs of them reversing course to make them hybrid only. From an environmental perspective, that's an utter waste. For one, it's short sighted as there may soon be viable, production technologies that offer much less oil dependence than current gas/electric hybrids. Second, a switch to Hybrid only HOV (which would mean the HOV name would become a misnomer) would initially, and probably for quite some time, add more congestion to the main lanes, reducing gas mileage even further for more cars, and a net increase in gas usage. Third, suppose you are right, and people start buying new hybrids left and right so that they can be in the new lexus lanes. You will have a net increase of solo occupant drivers than you do now. Sure, some may buy hybrids with very high gas mileage, but many will still buy ones that have less gas mileage than cars that are in the main lanes. Again, if you are correct, it will lead to more cars being produced which uses so much energy (which often comes from burning oils) to build these hybrids. If a car burns less gas than than the car it replaced, factoring in the energy cost to build it, I fail to see how it really saves oil in the long run. I still do not see it making a difference in the grand scheme of things, not even a little dent. Instead, it will make some car manufacturers and politicians richer than they are now. But alas, you disagree with all of this (if you even read it) and my points are meaningless to you, your grandfathered in hybrid owners, and your fellow lobbyists.
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Posted By: scottt
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2007 at 9:51am
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]Just a matter of time before we can get the really progressive legislation to make the express lanes hybrid only. After all, nearly every politician and environmental scientist has gone on record that global warming is the most pressing concern because it takes so long to show up. Traffic problems are right in front of us, but pale in significance. Won't be long before the legislature, which unaminously approved the extension, does the right thing for the environment.
Bought your hybrid yet?
Are you that stupid? Hybrid's get better gas mileage in bumper to bumper traffic (when they are mostly running on battery) than they do at HWY speeds.
I can't wait for the new 2008 gas mileage numbers, when Hybrid's are expected to take a 20-30% hit.
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Posted By: scottt
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2007 at 9:53am
quote:
Originally posted by sluDgE
[br]Bob,
Any reason given why "they can't give'em away"?
Are they that bad a car?
Or is it the expense versus comfort of the Prius being such a small car? A new Crown Vic, Charger, or Impala with much more passenger room and trunk space costs about the same and may have the same or better buyer incentives.
They aren't "that bad a car", they are just MUCH more expensive than a similar car.
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Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2007 at 11:36am
scottt,
Agree with you ... one can get a much roomier and more comfortable car for the same amount of money as a tiny little Prius ... or a car of the same size for less money.
My neighbor has one of the first Prius cars and likes the gas mileage, but he admits it's a bit on the small size. His family uses their newer minivan for family activities. For the money he spent on the Prius he could have bought a more comfortable commuting car. Using the HOV lanes on I-95/395 wasn't an incentive since he drives to work on Braddock Road and the Beltway to the Tysons Corner area.
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2007 at 12:23pm
And safety is an issue. The fact is that a heavier car always wins. They stay on the road better during violent maneuvers, it takes more to roll them, and in a collision, there is better survivability.
But you can buy a hybrid Accord -- that is better in safety than a Civic or a Prius, IMO.
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2007 at 1:55pm
quote:
Originally posted by darkprime
[br]...From an environmental perspective, that's an utter waste. For one, it's short sighted as there may soon be viable, production technologies that offer much less oil dependence than current gas/electric hybrids. Second, a switch to Hybrid only HOV (which would mean the HOV name would become a misnomer) would initially, and probably for quite some time, add more congestion to the main lanes, reducing gas mileage even further for more cars, and a net increase in gas usage. Third, suppose you are right, and people start buying new hybrids left and right so that they can be in the new lexus lanes. You will have a net increase of solo occupant drivers than you do now. Sure, some may buy hybrids with very high gas mileage, but many will still buy ones that have less gas mileage than cars that are in the main lanes. Again, if you are correct, it will lead to more cars being produced which uses so much energy (which often comes from burning oils) to build these hybrids....
Your statements here are all very logical and accurate, and I agree, but that is not the issue here. Anything that contradicts NoSUVs opinion is wrong, no matter how it affects anyone else. So no matter what you say, unless you agree that NoSUV should have a dedicated lane, you are wrong.
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2007 at 1:59pm
quote:
...Hybrid's get better gas mileage in bumper to bumper traffic (when they are mostly running on battery) than they do at HWY speeds...
How true! And if this is so, then hybrids should be pushed back into the regular lanes where they can operate at their maximum ecological and fuel effeciency. If legislators are serious about reducing fuel consumption and pollution, hybrids should be specifically excluded from the HOV lanes!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2007 at 2:08am
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Should the hybrid only lanes become congested, they could always go to hybrid-3. Just need to keep those terrible conventional vehicles OUT
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2007 at 8:23am
Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2007 at 10:26am
From an article today about the Top Selling vehicles in the US during January 2007 (based on total # of units sold).
They were: #1 Ford F-Series pick-up, #2 Chevy Silverado & C/K pick-up, #3 Toyota Camry, #4 Toyota Corolla/Matrix, #5 Honda Accord, #6 Chevrolet Impala, #7 Nissan Altima, #8 Dodge Ram Series pick-up, #9 Dodge Caravan, and #10 Honda Civic.
And not a Prius in the bunch.
Doesn't appear that hybirds have caught on just yet. [;)]
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2007 at 1:30pm
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Which means that the exclusion of new hybrids from the HOV exemption should be cancelled.
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Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2007 at 4:01pm
Nah!
Just load 'em up with 3 people in each Top Seller.
Then, head 'em north on the I-95 HOVs every workday morning!
The grandfathered SSOB Hybrids can just move over to let 'em by! [;)]
[^] Let's move more people in fewer cars. [^]
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Posted By: scottt
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2007 at 9:51am
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]Which means that the exclusion of new hybrids from the HOV exemption should be cancelled.
Nope, means you STILL DON'T GET IT! Hybrids get BETTER gas mileage in bumper to bumper traffic than Hwy speeds.
I love that Toyota is now offering 0% financing for the Prius. People finally wised up that $8k more for a Hybrid over a similar car isn't a wise purchase.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2007 at 10:01am
scottt - just out of curiosity, does your car get better mileage at 40 mph or 70 mph?
Or do you just not really get it?
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Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2007 at 2:29pm
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[^] Let's move more people in fewer cars! (whether the cars are hybrids or not!) [^]
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2007 at 2:31pm
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sluDge - does that make you an advocate for HOV-40, and taking mass transit?
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Posted By: darkprime
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 7:27am
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My car, a 2001 Mercury Cougar, gets 29.8 mpg at 70 mph and ~25 mpg at 40 mph.
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Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 7:48am
Sure, buses are fine for many commuters, especially if they can use express buses that drop passengers at their work locations. A guy in my office took one from Stafford/Quantico for years and it dropped him off a block away from work - and picked him up there in the afternoons. He liked it. He's now retired and is golfing, fishing, and hunting in SC.
In my case, it's just not time-efficient to endure the 50-70 min bus trip to work on a multi-stop Metro bus route with a required transfer to another bus at the Pentagon. My better time-use alternative is that I can pick up my carpool (or slugs) and breeze non-stop to my work location in 20-25 mins total. The bus option can take even more than 50-70 minutes in the afternoons.
Like most people, I want to minimize commuting time; and I often need my car during the day at work to get to appointments all over the NoVa area.
NoSUV, if public transportation works for you, and you can absorb the extra commute time into your daily schedule, get on the bus or Metro rail. It just doesn't work for me and for many others.
I've read your promotion of hybrid cars, and that's admirable. When I replace the old Grand Marq I'll check to see if any manufacturer is offering a hybrid sedan that has enough room and trunk space at an affordable price. I don't really want a hybrid or any other kind of SUV.
And if I do buy a hybrid, I still plan to use the HOVs with the carpool and/or slugs to save us all some commute time. That's just a nice thing to do for my neighbors. Why be selfish and drive alone when one has a couple of extra seats to share with friends and working stiffs just trying to get to/from their jobs in a time-efficient manner?
[^] Let's just move more people in fewer cars. [^] [:)]
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Posted By: scottt
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 8:55am
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]scottt - just out of curiosity, does your car get better mileage at 40 mph or 70 mph?
Or do you just not really get it?
Did I state ANYWHERE that my car is a hybrid? Hybrids get better gas mileage in City traffic (frequent stops, lots of traffic) than they do at Hwy speeds.
Just for the record, yes, my car gets better gas mileage at Hwy speeds than non-Hwy speeds.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 1:08pm
scottt- what you post is blatantly false. Hybrid do not get better mileage in stop and go than highway speeds, and the EPA is making the adjustment to the estimates (the EPA estimate used emissions as a criteria in the formula, which badly skewed the data). Test drive one, and you will see for yourself.
Hybrids, do, however, get better mileage that conventional vehicles in the same class, regardless of use on highway or stop and go.
I find it interesting that your vehicle gets better mileage at 70 mph than 40 mph. Every scientic journal seems to point the other way.
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Posted By: scottt
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2007 at 9:03am
NoSUV. What method of propulsion does a Hybrid use in bumper to bumper traffic at speeds under 13mph? Does that method of propulsion use any gas?
What method of propulsion does a Hybrid use at hwy speeds? Does that method of propulsion use any gas?
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2007 at 10:04am
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scottt - best if you test drive a hybrid and observe for yourself. I suspect that you will find that the method of propulsion is identical over the long run for the two scenarios you list.
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2007 at 11:43am
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Typical NoSUV non-answer. He's as impossible to argue with as a slippery eel.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2007 at 1:31pm
Sponge - why don't you do scottt a favor and do the test drive? What's the worst that could happen?
Perhaps you would find out what hybrid really means, and why it is far easier to show someone than trying to explain batteries vs. gas usage. Doubters should try one to see the shift during all speeds from one to the other - or both being used at the same time - to make the wheels go around.
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Posted By: scottt
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2007 at 8:24am
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]scottt - best if you test drive a hybrid and observe for yourself. I suspect that you will find that the method of propulsion is identical over the long run for the two scenarios you list.
I had a Prius as a rental for 3 weeks. Nice car, not worth the extra $8k it commands. Was weird running only on electric, but I quickly got used to it. In bumper to bumper traffic (downtown DC) the car ran almost 100% on electric power. No gas needed. At Hwy speeds the gas engine ran 100% of the time.
Car and Driver recently wrapped up a long term test of a Lexus RX400h. You only have to drive it 91,000 miles to break even over the price you would pay for the non-hybrid. Gee, sign me up for that!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2007 at 8:48am
I "broke even" the day I bought the hybrid - because helping the envirionment was important to me and well worth the extra cost. I bought it while living near Albany, NY, so no express lane breaks.
Your rental sounds abnormal. My hybrid gas engine engages after about 10 min of battery only operation in very slow traffic, but it does completely shut off frequently. At highway speeds, the gas engine does shut off when either at constant speed (zero accelleration) or when coasting downhill. Of course, you can lead foot your way so the gas engine always runs an also ruin your mileage...
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Posted By: darkprime
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2007 at 1:08pm
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Did i just read this correctly, but did NoSUV actually admit his car does use a gas engine?!?!?!? Oh my, it's the end of the world, and to think, I still have laundry to do.
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Posted By: Luddite
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2007 at 3:00pm
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One more thing...current hybrid drivers will have to purchase new hybrids to keep their old tags allowing them ride solo. They're stuck buying hybrids forever. Paying the most for the least vehicle. Bwaahaaaahaaaa.
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Posted By: scottt
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2007 at 9:47am
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]At highway speeds, the gas engine does shut off when either at constant speed (zero accelleration) or when coasting downhill. Of course, you can lead foot your way so the gas engine always runs an also ruin your mileage...
I set the cruise control on more than once at Hwy speeds, and the gas engine never shut off. I would also think you would have to coast down a long hill in order to get the engine to shut off (as mine never did going downhill).
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Posted By: darkprime
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2007 at 12:11pm
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Luddite, to be fair, more manufacturers are offering hybrids, and down the road, there will eventually be some other alternative fuel vehicles. Sure, they may be stuck buying hybrids if there's an incentive to keep the plate, but their choices are growing.
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2007 at 2:09pm
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That's the whole point, DP. There are better choices! People who continue to buy hybrids are keeping an obsolete technology alive. Consumers need to demand eco-friendly alternatives. Unless a hybrid is burning ethanol or biodiesel, its contributing to the problem and not solving it!
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Posted By: Luddite
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2007 at 2:32pm
Posted By: darkprime
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2007 at 3:28pm
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Yes, but I thought their plates are for clean alternative fuel vehicles? I was under the impression they could go buy a hydrogen powered car tomorrow (if one existed commercially) and still be in the HOV lanes as a SOV. Am I wrong?
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Posted By: Luddite
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2007 at 10:47am
Darkprime,
You can still be in HOV lanes on 95 with the new clean fuel tag, but you will have to have three living human bodies. Or, since any real enforcement ended some number of years ago, just get on hov whenever you want - doesn't even matter which direction you're going. Free-for-all.
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Posted By: LDOMAJ
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2007 at 11:33am
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Luddite... little cynical today are we?
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Posted By: Luddite
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2007 at 9:32pm
LDOMAJ,
Nothing really special about today. I usually have a pretty dim view of hov and hybrids. I used to care about enforcement until the hybrids poisoned the well.
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Posted By: LDOMAJ
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2007 at 6:32am
Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2007 at 1:34pm
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Can't fool me; we all care, or we wouldn't be here!
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