HOT LANES PROPOSED TOLLS WOW
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Topic: HOT LANES PROPOSED TOLLS WOW
Posted By: CallmeMrSlug
Subject: HOT LANES PROPOSED TOLLS WOW
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2007 at 11:39pm
This showed up in the Washington Post this evening:
"Drivers in express toll lanes planned for Interstates 95 and 395 would pay as much as a dollar a mile in some spots along the 36-mile route during peak times, the highest rate for a commute in the country, officials from the companies building the new-style highway said as they filed a detailed proposal yesterday.
But regional transportation planners estimate that the cost for a rush-hour ride on the optional lanes probably will be far steeper: as much as $1.60 a mile in crowded segments. They estimate that a 21-mile, rush-hour trip from the Pentagon to the Prince William Parkway would cost as much as $22.28. A round-trip during peak hours could cost $41.46."
To our buddy NOSUV, no mention of anyone exemption for Hybrids so prepare to pay the toll.
Also, they continue to allege that carpoolers will ride for free. Funny how no one ever addresses the issue on how they are going to count the people in the cars. It seems like such a basic quesion that even a reporter should be able to figure out to ask someone about it. Oh thats right, reporters only report whats fed to them anymore, they don't investigate whether the grub being fed to them is dog doo or not.
Woodbridge folks, you up to paying 200.00 a week to use HOT? And you Stafford and Fredericksburg folks, if us cynics are correct that we will all get shafted and pay the toll, are you ready to pay 90.00 a day, 450.00 a week to commute in the HOV lanes? Now that you know the plan, will you begin to put the heat on your elected officials now while you have a chance to affect the outcome on this issue, or will you just wait for doomsday before its too late. Remember these HOT fees are in addition to the taxes the assembly says we north virginians should be happy to accept to pay for road improvements. This is economic war against North Virginia on transportation. All commuters need to take arms and fight these proposals.
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Replies:
Posted By: LDOMAJ
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2007 at 7:15am
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Amazing we have to pay to use the roads that we paid to build...
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Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2007 at 7:18am
It's still in the news reports ... Do you believe this?
- "The tolls would be voluntary." [:)]
- "Those who don't carpool or take mass transit would be able to pay extra to skip rush hour and drive in High Occupancy Toll (HOT) lanes." [:)]
- "Buses and cars carrying more then three people would still ride for free." [;)]
I'd like to belive those reports, but now I'm not so sure. [V]
Would be really nice to see a report on exactly how the toll system can tell how many people are in each vehicle using the lanes and let the HOV3+ cars travel for free while charging the SOV vehicles.
It must be like a thermos bottle that keeps hot things hot and cold things cold. How does it know? [:p]
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Posted By: darkprime
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2007 at 7:47am
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The article states cars with more than three riders, so does that mean it will become HOV-4?
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2007 at 8:08am
All right now. The PW County Board of Supervisors is hopping mad about what is happening with HOT lanes. PWC is being left out of the information loop because Fluor et al know that Dale City is a hotbed of anti-hot.
http://www.pwcgov.org/documents/bocs/briefs/2007/0220/res07-161.pdf
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Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2007 at 8:11am
... and "take three" becomes mandatory?
That would work for me if it avoids our having to pay a ridculously high one-way toll.
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Posted By: scottt
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2007 at 9:20am
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Don't believe Fluor's statement that carpools will be free. Just look at the HOT lanes along 91 in Southern CA. The builder all along said that carpools would be free. The free ride didn't last long.
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Posted By: Jody
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2007 at 10:05am
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I agree with Scott. It irritates me that for 30 years the slug system has worked and is now being destroyed by the State of Virginia. Converting a shoulder of HOV but not putting up a barrier to keep the HOT lane separate from the HOV lanes is going to be a commuting nightmare.
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Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2007 at 12:01pm
Does anyone know for sure what Virginia's agreement or contract with the HOT contractor actually says about free travel for car pools and buses in the HOT lanes?
You'd think that important info would be a matter of public record -- or is it some sort of "double top secret probation" information? [;)]
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2007 at 1:27pm
I don't know how this is being planned for implementation, but on California's 91, there are 2 "toll" lanes, both of which use a transponder. One of the lanes is designated for carpools, and it has a camera for verification that the carpool requirements are met.
If the same system is used, vehicles going through the toll lane will be charged the variable amount, while vehicles meeting the lower cost or free criteria would go in a separate lane.
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Posted By: colossus911
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2007 at 5:35pm
In San Diego, the I-15 HOT lanes just rely on enforcement. Officers patrolling the lanes have readers to identify if a car they pull over paid the fare or not. Really creates a much worse enforcement problem then currently in the lanes.
One bonus is that the HOT toll provider depends on those lanes running to collect tolls so they push enforcement strongly and I can assure you their enforcement is much stronger than here.
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Posted By: mycroftt
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2007 at 10:12am
quote:
Originally posted by colossus911
[br]In San Diego, the I-15 HOT lanes just rely on enforcement. Officers patrolling the lanes have readers to identify if a car they pull over paid the fare or not. Really creates a much worse enforcement problem then currently in the lanes.
One bonus is that the HOT toll provider depends on those lanes running to collect tolls so they push enforcement strongly and I can assure you their enforcement is much stronger than here.
So the corporation that has just been handed a multi-billion dollar taxpayer-capitalized facility also has influence over how the taxpayers' law enforcement resources are to be utilized? It just gets better and better.
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Posted By: fed up
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2007 at 11:52am
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One topic that I have not seen discussed with respect to the HOT lanes (and I admit not having reviewed the proposed plans) is what impact the toll lanes will have on traffic leaving the District in the evenings. Where exactly are the booths going to be set up to collect the toll and how will this affect the flow of traffic from D.C. during the afternoon rush.
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Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2007 at 12:35pm
quote:
Originally posted by fed up
[br]One topic that I have not seen discussed with respect to the HOT lanes (and I admit not having reviewed the proposed plans) is what impact the toll lanes will have on traffic leaving the District in the evenings. Where exactly are the booths going to be set up to collect the toll and how will this affect the flow of traffic from D.C. during the afternoon rush.
Pay to get in, get out free?
dickboyd@aol.com
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Posted By: mycroftt
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2007 at 12:54pm
quote:
Originally posted by fed up
[br]One topic that I have not seen discussed with respect to the HOT lanes (and I admit not having reviewed the proposed plans) is what impact the toll lanes will have on traffic leaving the District in the evenings. Where exactly are the booths going to be set up to collect the toll and how will this affect the flow of traffic from D.C. during the afternoon rush.
It's interesting to start thinking along those lines. How about when there is a big event in DC like fireworks, new years, innauguration, etc. The current manner of getting the traffic back out is unrestricted use of the HOV. What will happen with the HOT? Gridlock? Will the taxpayers have to recompense the corporation for unrestricted access to the road that we built with our tax money?
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Posted By: EricWeissWashPost
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2007 at 1:03pm
I wrote Saturday's HOT lane story.
Coupla points to add to discussion:
* There will be no toll booths; EZ-Pass transponders will deduct tolls
* Will remain HOV-3, at least for the beginning of service in 2010
* Company promises free carpools forever; assume VDOT will put it in contract
* No hybrid exemption is currently considered
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Posted By: darkprime
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2007 at 1:13pm
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Thanks for the info Eric.
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Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2007 at 1:44pm
Eric,
A favor? .... when you do a follow-up on the story, can you get someone from the Virginia government (VDOT?) to go on the record about how exactly they will ensure the contractor charges the single drivers while letting the HOV3 car pools and commuter buses use the HOT lanes for free? The previous info we've seen has ranged from "use of good technology" to "it really can't be done".
It would also be interesting to get the contractor to go on the record on the same question, as well as providing us an explanation on the daily mechanics and procedures each type of commuter (e.g. paying and free) must follow to use the HOT lanes.
Thanks. We're looking forward to your follow-up. Happy sluggin'!
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Posted By: Galah
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2007 at 8:28am
Thanks for the update Eric, nice to know you read the board (and post to it!)
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2007 at 1:53pm
quote:
Originally posted by EricWeissWashPost
[br]I wrote Saturday's HOT lane story.
Coupla points to add to discussion:
* There will be no toll booths; EZ-Pass transponders will deduct tolls
* Will remain HOV-3, at least for the beginning of service in 2010
* Company promises free carpools forever; assume VDOT will put it in contract
* No hybrid exemption is currently considered
Welcome to the forum, Eric! Make no mistake about it, there are many reasons that HOT is bad for Dc area commuters and the region overall.
While the proposed plan from Flour (FTS) has some very well defined methods of charging and collecting tolls, it has not resolved the question of how to check cars for the 3+ occupants that would exempt HOVs from being charged tolls. And I suspect that once the "system" is able to identify the many, many HOV vehicles that would be exempted as promised, they would be seen as targets to recoup "lost" revenue for TSB. It is very likely that FTS would seek to ammend the terms to recoup this lost revenue as a toll on HOV drivers.
The whole concept of toll express lanes provides those commuters with the means (affluence), to pay their way to a speedy commute. This will promote "affluent urban flight" from the close-in suburbs to the exurbs as those who can afford to pay tolls will move further out. HOT will undermine effective urban planning and promote exurban sprawl. It also erodes some very basic common-sense traffic/pollution/fossil fuel consumption reduction concepts such as car-pooling, mass transit and other auto-alternative commuting options. HOT promotes single driver, rich, exurban resident commuting; a concept that is outdated and has been proven harmful to our society.
By farming out the responsibility to maintain existing HOV lanes and the awarding rights to charge for usage to a private firm, VDOT is betraying area taxpayers who have paid to build these roads and who have paid taxes for years to VDOT to maintain them. True the roads are in desperate need of maintanence, but we have paid taxes for this for years. Now that the bill is coming due VDOT is shirking its responsibility and dumping the costs on to the backs of taxpayer/commuters in the form of tolls. This is a shell game, and taxpayers are getting taken to the cleaners.
I hope this provides an alternate view of HOT lanes, from a user and future toll payer. I am a commuter and a taxpayer, and I stand with my fellow commuter/taxpayers in opposition of HOT lanes.
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2007 at 2:32pm
Eric,
Kafka's Feb. 13 article in potomacnews.com captures some of the political mis-direction on HOT lanes from supporters.
It is interesting that even though those quoted say they are exploring all options, this article is very pro-toll.
"This says to the federal government, 'we are serious about looking at alternatives so when you have a new project, you can also consider tolling,' " Lingamfelter said. "It decreases the burden on the shoulders of hardworking Virginians."
This is an outright lie! The burden will land squarely on my shoulders and on those of every other comuter.
"Tolls capture revenue from out of state travelers,..."
A statewide gas tax would also capture revenue from out of state travelers, and it would distribute this transportation cost burden over a much wider group of users thus reducing the impact on any one group. A statewide gas tax also restores some equity in the state's transportation cost distribution between NOVA (which has carried an unfairly large burden for too long) and the rest of the state. But of course, politicians don't like to promote taxes, even when they make sense.
Thanks goodness, "Two Northern Virginia senators were at first wary of the idea for fears that tolls would be placed on the Capital Beltway and Interstate 66.
Charging commuters going to Washington, D.C., or Maryland a daily toll could be "brutal," said Sen. Jeannemarie Devolites Davis, R-Vienna."
The sentiment is right, but misplaced,
"But those interstates could not be considered under this measure because there are already talks of charging tolls on those roads, said Barbara Reese, chief financial officer for the Virginia Department of Transportation."
"Plans are under way to build High Occupancy Toll lanes on Interstates 95, 395 and 495. Another study is under way to determine if congestion tolls would benefit traffic flow on I-66, Reese said."
Barbara Reese is a scoundrel! The CFO of VDOT has convinced everyone that tolls are the only way to improve transportation in NOVA. In actuallity, fiscal responsibility would be a good start! What has happened to our tax dollars that were supposed to be earmarked for transportation? Tolls may help her balance her books, but it is the tax payer who gets screwed in the end!
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Posted By: jadams08
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2007 at 4:03pm
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I have one question. If everyone floods the HOT/HOV lanes won't that make it just that much harder to get north and south? So now the main lines and HOT/HOV lanes will be backed up!
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Posted By: CallmeMrSlug
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2007 at 4:21pm
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The minute the lanes clog up, Fluor will tell VDOT it can no longer make money on the toll roads because people won't pay the toll if the road is clogged, and they need to end the free ride of the lowly slugs. That will be the beginning of the end for slugging as we know it. Who really expects VDOT to side with US in this situation. The next thing they do is charge really really high tolls, the kind only the rich can afford, to keep the HOV lanes moving. The result is a 90 minute commute on the main lanes from Woodbridge to DC and a 25 minute ride for the wealthy.
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2007 at 6:22pm
I've posted these quotes before, and just sent them to Eric:
"'If you're expecting to get HOV-3 and ride for free, it's not clear that's going to be possible at this stage,' said Ronald F. Kirby, transportation planning director of the Metropolitan Washington Council of Governments." Washington Post, 4-29-05 Page A01
and this email from a transportation expert to me:
"Mr. (redacted) -
As the report states, I am not familiar with any technology that allows for the independent, automated "counting" of vehicle occupants as the vehicle travels at highway speeds. For this reason, enforcement of HOV occupant restrictions is a manual process.
Hope this helps - have a good weekend as well.
Brian" (Smith, Ph.D. of UVA and a member of VDOT's HOT Advisory Committee.)
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Posted By: Galah
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2007 at 8:51am
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The current HOV system is, effectively, based on the honor system. If you started collecting tolls, you could funnel toll traffic through a booth while allowing HOV traffic to bypass the booth, and using the state police to watch the HOV flow and enforce the restriction much as they currently do....
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Posted By: HOV3Slug
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2007 at 1:43pm
The HOV-3 lanes work very well now even with the single rider hybrids. Charging commuters a toll on top of parking and the cost to drive is insane. The only thing now that needs to be done is extend the current HOV lanes down to Fredericksburg and beyond. Those HOV lanes are used heavily by the North Atlantic region of the country in the summer months and during the holidays. It seems to me the federal government should be picking up the tab on this one. Where do the congressman Davis, Horan, etc. in the region stand on the issue? $40 a day for tolls? Hello! - The rich folks live in McLean and inside the Beltway.
Bottom-line - Northern Virginia is poorly represented in Richmond. We need to move the capital to Fairfax. They (the players) either do not understand the dynamics of HOV-3 in the region and the importance of those middle lanes on weekends to traffic flow or we're dealing with a group of corrupt politicians and businessmen. For the love of God and the drivers in the region – STOP THE HOT LANES ON I-95.
PS – I too do not believe HOV-3 will be free with HOT lanes. This is no different than what Microsoft said to 3COMM back in the day – “You made one mistake – You trusted us.”
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Posted By: Luddite
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2007 at 1:21pm
HOV3Slug said, "The HOV-3 lanes work very well now even with the single rider hybrids."
Did you just move to HOV from the regular lanes? If so, then your first sentence is probably correct from your point of view. The reality is that SOV hybrids have killed HOV lanes. This forum is where we (HOV3) come to battle the evil selfish forces of sov hybrid drivers. People who care about the future of HOV lanes don't drive sov hybrids and don't belong on this forum.
Respectfully submitted.
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Posted By: HOV3Slug
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2007 at 3:09pm
No, I’ve been slugging and driving for awhile. No doubt, the slow moving hybrids do piss me off. However, HOV-3 or SOV hybrid, we have a common enemy, HOT lanes. It just like terrorism – Republican or Democrat – when outsiders come in and trash your way of life it’s time to stop quarrelling over domestic issues and pay attention to terrorists. In this case the terrorists are Richmond politicians and a road building contractor. They are about to trash our way of life.
Quite frankly if those in power who are making the decisions to build HOT lanes think folks will pay $40 a day then why aren’t they considering building a high speed elevated rail. I mean, if you’re willing to pay $40 more a day to do what we are doing now, would not folks pay $40 a day to take a 120 MPH train out of Fredericksburg to Rosslyn metro station everyday? It is my belief that if the HOT lanes are built and we are all put into the regular lanes – the decision making powers are calculating that as the insanity builds in the regular lanes folks will bite the bullet and pay the $40. If this thought process is true it tells you one thing about the decision makers – They didn’t study French history very well and don't appreciate the downside of an angry mob.
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2007 at 3:27pm
They know that few people down south will pay $40 round trip on a regular basis. You will get some, primarily high paid individuals who are reimbursed by their agency or company. As someone else mentioned, the rich folks live up inside the beltway, not in Dale City or Stafford. Especially with the increased housing and tax costs.
In a couple of years they will go to Richmond to change the law to toll carpools. Once they do that, they can dramatically reduce the tolls and still make more profit. Ingenious creeps.
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Posted By: LDOMAJ
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2007 at 4:29pm
quote:
Originally posted by Bob
[br]They know that few people down south will pay $40 round trip on a regular basis. You will get some, primarily high paid individuals who are reimbursed by their agency or company. As someone else mentioned, the rich folks live up inside the beltway, not in Dale City or Stafford. Especially with the increased housing and tax costs.
In a couple of years they will go to Richmond to change the law to toll carpools. Once they do that, they can dramatically reduce the tolls and still make more profit. Ingenious creeps.
Yep, if I could afford the Lexus Lanes I could afford to live in Arlington in an equivalent size home in a nice neighborhood. It doesn't take much imagination to see that this is being arranged by wealthy people for wealthy people.
I'll continue to carpool until they kill that then I'll be riding the train because there no way I'll be able to pay that extortion for the privilege to ride in their HOT...
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Posted By: HOV3Slug
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2007 at 5:38pm
…corrupt (unjustly enriched) politicians with corrupt (unjustly enriched) government employees for wealthy people (also unjustly enriched). I think that is what you meant.
Yes, we are the unjustly un-riched – our tax dollars stolen. That is what balances the equation. Is there Sarbanes-Oxley for government?
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2007 at 12:45pm
Folks, this is a political/financial shell game.
Has anyone looked at the HOV lanes lately? They're a mess; potholes and cracks everywhere! VDOT is facing steep HOV lane maintanence costs, and has no budget to complete the promised HOV lane buildout. VDOT is facing a financial crisis and Barbara Reese, VDOT's CFO and financial guru is on the hook to fund these programs THAT WERE PAID FOR by VA taxpayers AS VDOT PROMISED.
Along comes a "solution"; lease out the rights to a private firm to charge tolls on the highway in exchange for the maintanence and buildout. VDOT and Reese get to save face and the roads get fixed. Soundes like a good solution until you look under the shells and find that the cost burden has been dumped on the backs of NOVA commuters.
Come on NOVA taxpayers, folllow the money! It goes from our pockets to VDOT coffers, then, where? It's gone! Now VDOT is going back to the well, NOVA commuter's pockets, with a fee for road construction and maintanence in the disguise of a toll (with a tidy profit skimmed off the top by Flour) and calling it a "user fee." It all sounds fair until you realize that NOVA taxpayers have already paid for this!
And it gets worse when you realize what effect tolls will have:
-Discourage carpooling, while encouraging single, affluent passenger commuting,
-Discourage other forms of ridesharing such as busses/vanpools (yes, they will be tolled too),
-Encourage affluent urban flight as those who can afford the commute will move further out the the exurbs,
-Push the middle class, suburban commuters onto an already crowded and expensive mass transit system, and, as much of the METRO riders receive subsidies for taking mass transit,
-Funnel costs for this whole fiasco right back to the taxpayer: follow the money here folks; high tolls push commuters onto METRO> govn't. pays mass transit allowanses> taxpayers fund govn't. services> mass transit allowance costs increase> taxpayers must pay more for govn't. services.
Meanwhile, in another part of the country, Flour executives (and NOVA politicians) sit in big leather chairs counting their profits and laugh about how they snowed NOVA taxpayers/commuters into paying, yet again, for a boondoggle!
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Posted By: HOV3Slug
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2007 at 8:00am
Raymond - Thank you.
If the apocalypse happens on I-95 I, today, fortunately have a job where I will probably change my hours from 6-2:30 (maybe even 5:30-2). I would also guess those who are on the fence with working from home will do so. A blackberry, computer, fax machine, high speed line, scanner, printer, desk & chair – about $4,000 of stuff and the office can save on the rent. At the end of the day if your employer really likes you (because you add incredible value to the company) working from home will happen – especially if the apocalypse happens.
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Posted By: go2grl
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2007 at 8:46am
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I'm right there with you HOV3. I'll start putting my case together for telecommuting as soon as the tolls kick in. There's no way I'll be putting out that money. I'd rather take a pay cut and work out of Stafford.
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Posted By: darkprime
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2007 at 12:05pm
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And that paycut would save you gas and other expensives (but your electric bill will go up). Again, since the office would possibly save money, then your pay could stay the same.
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