'HOT Lanes Online Petition'-Request for Feedback
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Forum Name: HOT Lanes Discussion
Forum Description: Post messages regarding High Occupancy Toll (HOT) lanes here.
URL: http://www.slug-lines.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3345
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Topic: 'HOT Lanes Online Petition'-Request for Feedback
Posted By: spidermonkey
Subject: 'HOT Lanes Online Petition'-Request for Feedback
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2007 at 8:28pm
I am not a 'writer'. Just a grassroots type of guy that wants to get some favorable attention to getting something going to stop this HOT lanes project. Below is a start on wording for an online petition in the vein of the one against the VA traffic fines remedial fees that has been so successful.
Thanks to VDOT for the motivation for this.
Thanks to Bob for the start (added to, tweaked a little).
Thanks to you all in advance for any/all input/feedback.
I would like to initiate this by this weekend so please help frame this properly with me.
Thanks.
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To: Governor Kaine, VDOT, and our Elected Officials in the Commonwealth of Virginia
We, the citizens of Virginia, are strongly opposed to the implementation of the High Occupancy Toll (HOT) lanes that are under consideration for the I-95/I-395/I-495 corridor in Northern Virginia for the following reasons:
1. It should be against federal and state law to convert an existing HOV lane to HOT.
2. We object to the secretive nature of the Public-Private Partnership negotiations.
3. We object to having a private consortium control the most critical interstate system in the U.S.
4. There is inadequate capacity on these roads to support thousands of single occupant toll vehicles and re-striping will not add capacity due to bottlenecks.
5. We believe that within a short time after the lanes become operational, a move will be made to convert the anticipated HOV-3 lanes and/or begin charging tolls to carpools, motorcyles, and/or public transportation vehicles.
6. The citizens of Virginia deserve to know all of the terms of the agreement and have meaningful input into the process before the agreement is signed.
7. We are concerned that this system will harm HOV by crowding the corridor, and in so doing will have long term negative consequences on commute times, air pollution, parking, and public safety of disabled vehicles.
8. Technology that is anticipated for enforcing the HOT lanes is not currently viable and will require other more reliable and much more expensive methods (i.e., manned toll booths for visual inspection, state police) that will result in significantly degraded commute times.
9. The imposition of such a system on the most highly travelled corridor on the East Coast and on the only viable commute option for Washington DC area workers is an unfair tax on living in the area.
10. Other options should be explored including conversion of one of the regular lanes to HOV or HOT or adding a HOT lane to the regular lanes.
11. We must preserve the most successful HOV system in the country. We need more carpools, not single occupant cars.
We, the undersigned, demand VDOT and the State of Virginia to propose an alternative option that will relieve congestion without
adding additional congestion. We will not vote for any local official, or State of Virginia official who supports this inherently unfair transportation option.
Sincerely,
The Undersigned
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Feedback??
spidermonkey
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Replies:
Posted By: Jody
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2007 at 10:59am
Hi Spidermonkey. I suggest a sentence be added to Number 5: "VDOT & the St. of VA insist that language be added to the Fluor contract guaranteeing that vehicles carrying 3 or more people and Metro buses are never charged a toll for the HOV/HOT lanes at any time.
Fluor is stating this in their handouts but there has been no confirmation from VDOT or the delegates that this provision is in the contract. Thanks for doing this.
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Posted By: jim_va
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2007 at 12:47pm
New to the HOT issue. Would there be a benefit to including our congressmen in Washington because it involves the Interstate system? Or perhaps a seperate letter to ask them to investigate VDOT and the secrecy of the dealings?
Am willing to distribute information/letters at Horner Road slug lines to raise the visability and urgency of the issue.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2007 at 1:30pm
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I will not support, and will likely campaign against, any petition or proposed legislation that does not include an incentive for consumers to purchase low emission vehicles. The environment is just too important to be ignored.
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Posted By: spidermonkey
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2007 at 3:25pm
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]I will not support, and will likely campaign against, any petition or proposed legislation that does not include an incentive for consumers to purchase low emission vehicles. The environment is just too important to be ignored.
Ok, NoSUV. Instead of being anti-this (like other threads I've read), try putting your head to work and adding your 2 cents to make this petition something *YOU* can support. I'm not against hybrid technology...just against closing down a system that currently works like a well-oiled machine. Please "pony up" a suggested point to add, I you please.
Be proactive!
spidermonkey
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2007 at 10:35am
spidermonkey -
Very good of you to ask. I'd recommend modifying your point 11:
Transportation efforts must have a neutral or lessor effect on the region's air quality, and as such, must promote mass transit, clean emission vehicles such as hybrids, and high occupancy vehicles. Single occupancy vehicles which are not environmentally friendly should not be able to buy their way into special transportation access.
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Posted By: Sheepish
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2007 at 12:03pm
I think #6 is a powerful point in this whole issue, but not written well enough to explain why and perhaps gain outside the DC area support from "citizens of Virginia." The current status of secretive details, lack of technology to manage the lanes, etc. are all examples of what I call poor decision making and the lack of a public vote as is done for bond issues is even more frightening!!
We "citizens of Virginia" will bear the financial costs of bailing out a failed, or poorly negotiated contract for years and years!! If I lived in some other part of the state and got wind of the state venturing into this kind of a deal with no real answers this close to implementing it I'd sure raise a fuss knowing I'd potentially have to "pay for the mistake" down the road with my tax dollars!!!
Again, not sure of the wording to use, but perhaps rewording #6 something to the effect of:
"All citizens across the entire state of Virginia deserve to be informed of all of the terms of the agreement and have opportunities for questions and answers from VDOT officials as to these terms. The information should also contain details for understanding the implications to all citizens, financial or other, should this Private-Public partnership not meet the requirements of either party. Without terms of agreement details and the opportunity to vote on potential financial repercussions of a failed partnership, we question whether VDOT is acting in the best interest for all citizens of Virginia."
Secondary to that, this is a point that should be made in articles in local papers all around this state-- letters to editors, whatever. Folks from other parts of the state wouldn't have an interest if they don't drive the roads like we do, but perhaps would take notice if they knew there was a real possibility of having to bail out the state on a failed "secretive" contract-- one they never really knew was about to take place.
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2007 at 1:42pm
True, Very few people realize the risk of failure - having to not only pay the developer back but risking counter-suits from the developer. For example, if developers want to charge HOV vehicles and VA doesn't allow it and the HOT fails, then developer could sue the state, etc etc. Many possible scenarios.
Separately, I was wondering about the possibility of a lawsuit or threat of one to stop this. Would it be possible for Pr William County to sue the state over this to get it dragged out and aired out at least? I imagine a group such as the Sierra Club could sue, but they have been pretty quiet.
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Posted By: Cavvie
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2007 at 1:56pm
Spidermonkey
I think this may be what you are looking for. What think ye?
We the undersigned strongly oppose the I-95/395 High Occupancy Toll (HOT) lane project for the following reasons:
1. We object to the secretive nature of the Public-Private Partnership negotiations between the State of Virginia and private consortiums. All citizens across the entire State of Virginia deserve to be informed of all the terms of any agreement entered into between the State of Virginia and any private consortium under the Public Private Partnership Act. The citizens of the State of Virginia deserve to have any and all questions related to this conversion answered fully and honestly by both their elected officials and VDOT officials prior to any contractual vehicle being executed between the State of Virginia and any private consortium in a public forum. The information should also contain details for understanding the implications to all citizens, financial or other, should this Private-Public partnership not meet the requirements of either party. Without terms of agreement, details, and the opportunity to vote on potential financial repercussions of a failed partnership, we question whether VDOT is acting in the best interest for all citizens of Virginia.
2. It should be against Federal and State law to convert an existing High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) lane, paid for with Federal and/or State tax revenue, to a private corporation/partnership for HOT with no reimbursement to the taxpayer for the initial cost of building these lanes.
3. We object to having a private consortium being transferred the authority to control a portion of the most critical interstate system in the U.S. with no input or opportunity to vote by the citizens of the State of Virginia into the law which authorizes such a transfer.
4. There is inadequate capacity on 395 to support the addition of thousands of single occupant toll vehicles and re-striping will not add capacity due to bottlenecks.
5. We believe that within a short time after the lanes become operational, a move will be made by the private consortium to convert the HOV-3 to HOV-4 and/or begin charging tolls to carpools, motorcycles, and/or public transportation vehicles.
6. We are concerned that this system will harm HOV by crowding the corridor, and in so doing will have long term negative consequences on commute times, air pollution, and parking.
7. Technology proposed by the private consortium that is anticipated for enforcing the HOT lanes is not currently viable and will require other more reliable and much more expensive and time consuming methods (i.e., manned toll booths for visual inspection, state police) that will result in significantly degraded commute times.
8. The imposition of such a system on the most highly traveled corridor on the East Coast and on the only viable commute option for Washington DC area workers is an unfair tax on living in the area.
9. Other options should be explored and the results provided to the citizens of the State of Virginia on alternatives including having the private consortium purchase right-of-way and add a regular lane to I95 for the purpose of HOT or conversion of one of the regular lanes of I-95 to HOT on a reimbursable basis by the private consortium.
10. We must preserve the most successful HOV system in the country. Transportation efforts must have a neutral or improving effect on the region's air quality, and as such, must promote mass transit, clean emission vehicles such as hybrids, and high occupancy vehicles. Single occupancy vehicles which are not environmentally friendly should not be able to buy their way into special transportation access. We need to promote more carpools, not single occupant cars.
11. We will explicitly campaign and vote against any local official, or State of Virginia official who supports any public-private transportation agreement that does not adhere to these guidelines and in particular, this inherently unfair transportation option.
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Posted By: spidermonkey
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2007 at 2:40pm
quote:
Originally posted by Cavvie
[br]Spidermonkey
I think this may be what you are looking for. What think ye?
Excellent re-write Cavvie. Thanks for the inputs NoSUV and Bob!
Others thoughts or comments?
I noticed an omission ("residents") I introduced in 8. See below.
8. The imposition of such a system on the most highly traveled corridor on the East Coast and on the only viable commute option for Washington DC area workers is an unfair tax especially on residents living in the area.
Also, for NoSUV's concern over hybrids being apart of the equation...adding "hybrids" to 5.
5. We believe that within a short time after the lanes become operational, a move will be made by the private consortium to convert the HOV-3 to HOV-4 and/or begin charging tolls to hybrids, carpools, motorcycles, and/or public transportation vehicles.
Any other "points" left out or crucial to include here? I'd like to get something going on this before there is a surrepticious midnight session down in Richmond.
Unfortunately, the slugging community will need the help of the non-slugging community (NOVA residents and down-staters as well) to get the word out and get some publicity on this. While this is physically a NOVA issue, as it has been pointed it, non-NOVA residents should be very concerned about this as well.
spidermonkey
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2007 at 2:47pm
Re: Hybrids
If you put anything about hybrids on your anti HOT petition, no one will sign it. So you might reconsider.
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Posted By: spidermonkey
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2007 at 3:14pm
I really don't want this to turn into a NoSUV v. Bob thing here because none of that is really productive, if you know what I mean (no offense to anyone).
So what kind of wording can the NoSUV types and Bob types of the world live with?? This has got to be something where these two camps (which you two represent for better, or for worse) can work together, otherwise all of the infighting and bickering will sterilize us all as the Fluor/Richmond types steamroll right over us. When this happens, there will be no use having any flame-wars. If we can't stop them NOW, there will be no stopping them once the gain momentum.
----
How about an amended (neutral) #5, which brings in Jody's suggestion (which I think is a really good one)
5. We believe that within a short time after the lanes become operational, a move will be made by the private consortium to convert the HOV-3 to HOV-4 and/or begin charging tolls to vehicles originally exempt from paying tolls. We insist that vehicles carrying 3 or more people (including public transportation) are exempt from paying tolls in the HOT lanes at all times, for the life of the HOT system.
spidermonkey
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2007 at 3:28pm
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That seem ok. In regard to hybrids, there is literally no way the HOT developers will allow them. There would be a tidal wave of hybrids and it would kill their profits. No brainer.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2007 at 3:29pm
quote:
Originally posted by Bob
[br]Re: Hybrids
If you put anything about hybrids on your anti HOT petition, no one will sign it. So you might reconsider.
spidermonkey,
100% of the General Assembly (that's Delegates and Senators) voted to approve the hybrid exemption this year. Bob's "no one" is out of sync with the rest of Virginia.
The problem with your #5 wording is that it is unlikely that anyone will make a guarantee for life - the future is just too darn hard to predict. Would the legislature disregard the whole thing for the sake of one part?
Also, your wording in the earlier (1440) post is not quite right. For some inexplicable reason, the current HOT plan excludes motorcycles but not hybrids. I have told my delegate and senator that they belong in the same category.
Anyway, your revised wording still won't help the air quality, which you and I breathe (I'm not sure about Bob). Emission levels are rising, transportation is 1/3 of the cause, and leaving things at status quo or worse won't help. Need to clearly state that tolls won't be levied initially on CSF vehicles. Congesion based pricing will keep out the bigger polluting SOVs.
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Posted By: spidermonkey
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2007 at 3:41pm
Ok... While I have both of you engaged, how about simply omitting point #5? It is a concern of all (changes to what might be originally negotiated), but not entirely essential to the petition.
Thoughts?
Can both of the "camps" live with the wording of Cavvie's original 13:56 post along with my minor editorial of point #8. I can repost it in its entirety once we have a general agreement.
It behooves us to work together to get this ball rolling before we are steamrolled. If nothing else, we might get some "paper" to pick up on the story and turn it into something with teeth.
spidermonkey
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Posted By: AveMaria
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2007 at 11:21am
Spidermonkey,
It is impossible to (effectively) serve two gods. Please move forward with your initiative!
Don't waste valuable time dealing with those TWO parasites who suck the life out of ANY TOPIC which doesn't support views of how things should be in THEIR individual little worlds.
Thanks so much to all who have added positive input to this effort. If there is anything that I can do to assist (handing out flyers, etc.) pls email me at pacdiva2000@yahoo.com
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2007 at 12:24pm
spidermonkey,
Ave is correct - Bob is SO anti-hybrid that he is unwillng to join forces to stop HOT. In fact, several months ago he began a topic in this area about recruiting allies to fight HOT. Just as long as the allies excluded the hybrid community. His stance appears to be that it is better to go it alone than get assistance from those he hates. And very, very few posters on this board are willing to compromise - just like our political system.
If you want to be inclusive, add something about the hybrids. Inclusive, generally speaking, brings a larger diversity and greater population to agree with you. And being exclusive sets you up for a far smaller number of supporter as well as having to receive broadsides from those you excluded. I think your goal is to have the petition signed by more than just the slug community, and perhaps much of the Commonwealth. What will give you the greatest overall support and the least resistence? If you ask just a small segment, like the slug community, you might get a different answer than if you look at the broader population. For the hybrid exclusion exemption, it was passed by a vote of 94-0 this year, so there seems to be some support for it, even if not on this board.
It is YOUR petition, so it is YOUR choice.
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Posted By: Cavvie
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2007 at 4:47pm
Spidermonkey,
I guess being new to this, we don't bring as much baggage. Try modifying my #10 to read as follows:
10. Virginia must preserve the most successful HOV system in the country. Transportation efforts must have a neutral or improving effect on the region's air quality. Single occupancy vehicles which are not environmentally friendly should not be able to buy their way into special transportation access. We need to promote more carpools, not single occupant cars.
This modification gives a little to both camps. Short of using this language, the arguments will continue which is exactly what Fluor wants and such a petition never gets a chance to survive. In the end, VDOT and Fluor wins and we all end up driving and paying for the pleasure whether you are a hybrid or HOV-3. Either way, the responsible party, either hybrids or HOV-3 will then have to take the responsibility of killing this effort and be partially responsible for the success of HOT. Let's move out and let the cards fall where they may.
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Posted By: spidermonkey
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2007 at 7:16pm
quote:
Originally posted by Cavvie
Let's move out and let the cards fall where they may.
-------------
In the interest of fair & full disclosure, here is what I plan on going with (see below). Points of change from Cavvie's original 2007/08/06, 13:56 reword:
#10. Cavvies' 2007/08/07, 16:47 reword
#8. My 2007/08/06, 14:40 (minor editorial) reword
#5. My final combined 2007/08/06, 15:14 reword (which does include Jody's point) with a new minor editorial reword changing "are" to "contractually remain"
Thanks to Fluor/VDOT for all of the motivation.
Thanks to Bob for the start, the thorough editorial rewrite from Cavvie, some input from Sheepish and Jody, and yes, even the some of the "bash & clash" from Bob and NoSUV helped out too, I think---Hey, let's work together to stop this thing cold before it can even get any steam!
Here is what I plan on going with.
I am going to leave posted for 24 hours before initiating the petition online.
AveMaria: Any kind of help that you are proposing will be useful to the cause. We'll have to think about the best way to go about this. Definitely someway getting the word out to slugs & drivers in the NOVA area will be the first step. Getting the word out to other friends & family down state will be necessary to get some momentum going statewide.
Are there any lawyers with their "ears" on that might have some knowledge about the legality of turning public roadways into privately owned and operated ventures???? Seems like this would be something that would stop this thing dead in its tracks.
Anyways...look for something tomorrow night. I'll post when a petition becomes available.
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We the undersigned strongly oppose the I-95/395 High Occupancy Toll (HOT) lane project for the following reasons:
1. We object to the secretive nature of the Public-Private Partnership negotiations between the State of Virginia and private consortiums. All citizens across the entire State of Virginia deserve to be informed of all the terms of any agreement entered into between the State of Virginia and any private consortium under the Public Private Partnership Act. The citizens of the State of Virginia deserve to have any and all questions related to this conversion answered fully and honestly by both their elected officials and VDOT officials prior to any contractual vehicle being executed between the State of Virginia and any private consortium in a public forum. The information should also contain details for understanding the implications to all citizens, financial or other, should this Private-Public partnership not meet the requirements of either party. Without terms of agreement, details, and the opportunity to vote on potential financial repercussions of a failed partnership, we question whether VDOT is acting in the best interest for all citizens of Virginia.
2. It should be against Federal and State law to convert an existing High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) lane, paid for with Federal and/or State tax revenue, to a private corporation/partnership for HOT with no reimbursement to the taxpayer for the initial cost of building these lanes.
3. We object to having a private consortium being transferred the authority to control a portion of the most critical interstate system in the U.S. with no input or opportunity to vote by the citizens of the State of Virginia into the law which authorizes such a transfer.
4. There is inadequate capacity on 395 to support the addition of thousands of single occupant toll vehicles and re-striping will not add capacity due to bottlenecks.
5. We believe that within a short time after the lanes become operational, a move will be made by the private consortium to convert the HOV-3 to HOV-4 and/or begin charging tolls to vehicles originally exempt from paying tolls. We insist that vehicles carrying 3 or more people (including public transportation) contractually remain exempt from paying tolls in the HOT lanes at all times, for the life of the HOT system.
6. We are concerned that this system will harm HOV by crowding the corridor, and in so doing will have long term negative consequences on commute times, air pollution, and parking.
7. Technology proposed by the private consortium that is anticipated for enforcing the HOT lanes is not currently viable and will require other more reliable and much more expensive and time consuming methods (i.e., manned toll booths for visual inspection, state police) that will result in significantly degraded commute times.
8. The imposition of such a system on the most highly traveled corridor on the East Coast and on the only viable commute option for Washington DC area workers is an unfair tax especially on residents living in the area.
9. Other options should be explored and the results provided to the citizens of the State of Virginia on alternatives including having the private consortium purchase right-of-way and add a regular lane to I95 for the purpose of HOT or conversion of one of the regular lanes of I-95 to HOT on a reimbursable basis by the private consortium.
10. Virginia must preserve the most successful HOV system in the country. Transportation efforts must have a neutral or improving effect on the region's air quality. Single occupancy vehicles which are not environmentally friendly should not be able to buy their way into special transportation access. We need to promote more carpools, not single occupant cars.
11. We will explicitly campaign and vote against any local official, or State of Virginia official who supports any public-private transportation agreement that does not adhere to these guidelines and in particular, this inherently unfair transportation option.
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Posted By: achall
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2007 at 8:41am
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spidermonkey - looks great. When do you expect the petition to be available for signing?
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Posted By: spidermonkey
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2007 at 8:57am
Thanks for the review, Achall. It should be available tonight around 8 EDT. I wanted it to sit for 24 hours. I'll will post a note on this board when it is available.
spidermonkey
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2007 at 11:10am
Under 10.
" Single occupancy vehicles which are not environmentally friendly should not be able to buy their way into special transportation access. We need to promote more carpools, not single occupant cars."
Delete this part. It implies that "environmentally friendly" vehicles should be able to buy their way in but no one else. In other words, you are promoting a HOT system in which HOV is free but otherwise only HYBRIDS get to buy their way in as SOV.
NO, we want an HOV in which all vehicles are HOV. Otherwise it will defeat the purpose of opposing HOT lanes. We are opposing HOT lanes because there is insufficient capacity. Limiting the toll vehicles to hybrids would just delay the jamming of the lanes by a couple of years.
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Posted By: Jody
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2007 at 11:15am
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Thanks to Spidermonkey (and others) for their contributions. Please remember to post the link so we can sign. I plan to print a copy of the petition with the link to give to drivers/riders every morning/evening. I will also be leaving this on doorsteps in the Springfield neighborhoods.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2007 at 11:52am
spidermonkey -
Told you Bob was unwilling to compromise! Leave your #10 alone as Bob's paranoia is reflected in your compromise wording in #5 second sentence.
Some editorial comments:
Where you have put "State of Virginia" change to "Commonwealth of Virginia". Statement 1 (three times), statement 3, and 9.
Statements 3 and 6 will be answered by VDOT with the term "congestion based pricing." In other words, their intent is to raise the variable toll in the HOT lanes until it becomes too expensive for non-exempt vehicles. If crowded at $2/mile, change to $4. If that doesn't work, keep on going higher. Imagine $100/mile for non-exempt vehicles. SOV is effectively out.
Recommend changing statement 9 "HOT" (two times) to "toll".
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2007 at 12:16pm
You may be a newcomer who is unaware of the fact that the above member is a troll and a spammer. He sits around and trolls and spams this site becaue he hates slugging. Any time a post comes in that he doesn't like, he "covers" it with spam. How juvenile. So I really wouldn't give any credence to what he says. Or, better yet, just do the opposite of what he says if you want to promote HOV.
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Posted By: AveMaria
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2007 at 1:27pm
Spidermokey,
I will print and distribute flyers at the Tacket's Mill parking lot and will attempt to leave work early on Friday (if the petition is completed) and start handing them out at Horner. I hope that the slugs don't mind having flyers put on their windshields. [8)]
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2007 at 3:28pm
quote:
Originally posted by Bob
[br]You may be a newcomer who is unaware of the fact that the above member is a troll and a spammer. He sits around and trolls and spams this site becaue he hates slugging. Any time a post comes in that he doesn't like, he "covers" it with spam. How juvenile. So I really wouldn't give any credence to what he says. Or, better yet, just do the opposite of what he says if you want to promote HOV.
Bob,
Are you saying that the VA General Assembly DIDN'T vote 100% to extend the hybrid exemption? Or is it YOU that should not receive credence. After all, when was the last time YOU posted something factual?
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Posted By: spidermonkey
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2007 at 7:29pm
I've initiated the petition. It can be accessed at:
http://www.petitiononline.com/NOTsoHOT/petition.html
I've made the following minor editorial edits:
1. Reworded introductory phrase to speak to the I-95/I-395/I-495 "corridor" (also, other references to either I-95 or I-395 now speak to the "corridor")
2. Taken NoSUV's 2007/08/08 11:52 editorial suggestions regarding "Commonwealth of Virginia" and "toll"
3. Tightened up #9 slightly (the wording was a little wandering)
I'm going to start another thread announcing the online petition. Thanks to everyone for making this into an effort that will at least help us feel as if we are a positive part of the process!
Now we've got to get the word out somehow. Thanks in advance to all the hands and feet that are willing to help.
Now, here's to seeing what the little guys and gals can do...
spidermonkey
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