HOV to HOT Lanes
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Forum Name: HOT Lanes Discussion
Forum Description: Post messages regarding High Occupancy Toll (HOT) lanes here.
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Topic: HOV to HOT Lanes
Posted By: lrb1977
Subject: HOV to HOT Lanes
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2003 at 10:48am
Below is part of an article that appeared in today's Washington Post and perhaps will become an issue in the future. In my opinion, this would not be good for slugging. What are your thoughts?
(To read the full article go to www.washingtonpost.com or B1 of the newspaper)
Va. Willing to Study Toll Lanes' Potential
By Katherine Shaver
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, January 16, 2003; Page B01
Northern Virginia motorists have moved a step closer to being able to buy their way out of traffic. With a regional endorsement yesterday, Virginia is seeking $1 million in federal money to study whether to allow lone drivers to pay a toll to use free-moving carpool lanes. The lanes would be studied for highways such as Interstate 66 inside the Capital Beltway, parts of Interstate 95 and the Dulles Toll Road.
The idea of high-occupancy toll, or "HOT," lanes has surfaced in the Washington region before, but it has never gotten a thorough look. This would be the first time Northern Virginia has studied it. Maryland planned to consider the idea for Route 50's new carpool lanes, but Gov. Parris N. Glendening (D) killed it in 2001, saying HOT lanes were unfair to lower-income drivers.
The region's Transportation Planning Board endorsed Virginia's application for the federal money yesterday. The vote was purely symbolic, but the fact that public officials even discussed the possibility of charging people for traffic relief represents a stark shift from the tepid political support HOT lanes have had locally.
Even the influential AAA, which loudly criticized the idea just 18 months ago, now supports examining HOT lanes as a way to generate badly needed money. It is one of the few potential traffic solutions on which the AAA, highway officials and environmentalists agree.
Motorists who have an electronic transponder on their vehicles, similar to Virginia's Smart Tag, can enter the carpool lane. A variable message sign tells them the going rate at that time. Tolls can change every five minutes or so, rising as the lanes become more crowded. Motorists are charged the toll in effect when they entered the HOT lane. If the carpool lane starts getting too crowded, highway officials raise the toll, hoping to improve traffic flow. The toll rates in California vary from about 75 cents to about $4 during the morning and evening rush. The tolls are automatically deducted from the transponders. Charging more during peak times encourages people to drive at off-peak times, traffic experts say.
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Replies:
Posted By: mirangus
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2003 at 11:12am
There are some huge gaps in this plan!! Does this toll affect those who carpool or slug? Are there going to be time consuming toll plazas? Are those that want to travel in the HOV lanes going to be REQUIRED to have a smart tag? How is a smart tag going to know whether or not you have 3 people in your vehicle? Do you just get charged anyway? You're stinkin' right this will affect slugging!!!!! I, for one, would NOT be able to work in the DC area anymore. It would cost me far too much everyday, and I would not want to sit in the proper lanes for hours and hours everyday...THAT'S WHY I SLUG!!!!
And now, I will settle down before I give myself an aneurism.
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Posted By: Arbo
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2003 at 11:43am
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Its a terrible idea! I feel it would have just the opposie effect as that touted by those who want the $ it MAY generate. Anyway, in effect they are already "HOT" lanes for those violators who happen to get caught. Who do we write too to complain about the idea?
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Posted By: Arbo
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2003 at 11:45am
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In addition, I recommend they repeal the law allowing hybrids an dalternative fueled vehicles in the restricted lanes, go back to HOV-4 on the I95/395 corridor, and extend the evening restriction to 6:30pm.
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Posted By: tondalea
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2003 at 1:13pm
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We would probably end up with more traffice in the HOV than regular lanes.I think the HOV-4 and extension sounds good. Good for slugging too.
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2003 at 1:41pm
This reminds me of the study a few years back that was looking at changing the HOV on 95 to HOV-2. It was opposition by slugs and other HOV users that shut that down. The study was completed but no action was ever taken thankfully. That would have messed us up too.
I had read an article only about a week ago that was talking about this, but the jist of that story was that they were considering using HOT to finance new lanes, such as on the beltway. There is no mention of that in the current article. -- just talking about current HOV lanes.
We should write our county and state representatives on this as soon as possible.
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Posted By: mlrdad
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2003 at 2:38pm
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I agree - the toll idea is terrible. It will just conjest the hov lanes and kill slugging. Bottom line - more cars on the road - less per passenger milage. Time for a letter to Ms. Mcquigg
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Posted By: lrb1977
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2003 at 2:44pm
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I'm glad to see that so far we are all in agreement. I will try to stay up-to-date on this issue and if it sounds like they are seriously considering following through, I will organize a write-in campaign to Gov. Warner, Gov. Ehrlich and our respective local Reps. for those interested in participating. Please feel free to share anything you may here down the road. Thanks.
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Posted By: lovetoslug
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2003 at 3:31pm
CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS????? [:0]
I can't imagine there is anyone who uses the Slugging System (Driver or Slug) who would want this to happen. I think we have to be alert and voice our opinions LOUDLY on this Issue!!!! Doesn't this HOT idea go against the Federal mandates to reduce traffic in Metropolitan Areas? I guess Energy Conservation (and congestion problems) become a non-issue when you've got the Almighty $$$ up against it! Everyone has their price don't they?
To me this is a simple case of poor management (and possibly misappropriated funds), the same as when they raise taxes, I always think that's a laughable concept. Wouldn't it be nice if WE had the power to NOT pay taxes when we ran over our personal budgets...wouldn't that be Fun. "Ooops, can't pay that tax this year, just don't have the funds!" [:D]
Anyway, let's stay alert and make a collaborative effort to squash this idea fast! Personally I don't care what happens with the other HOV lanes, most don't really work well anyway (I-66 HOV is a joke), BUT I-95/395 work Great, so let's not let the politicians screw up a good thing.
Let's get organized and make sure we stop this before it gets started!
Love-to-Slug
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Posted By: Admin
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2003 at 8:56pm
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Here is the direct link to the article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63250-2003Jan15.html
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Posted By: Admin
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2003 at 8:57pm
Here's the entire article:
Va. Willing to Study Toll Lanes' Potential
By Katherine Shaver
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, January 16, 2003; Page B01
Northern Virginia motorists have moved a step closer to being able to buy their way out of traffic.
With a regional endorsement yesterday, Virginia is seeking $1 million in federal money to study whether to allow lone drivers to pay a toll to use free-moving carpool lanes. The lanes would be studied for highways such as Interstate 66 inside the Capital Beltway, parts of Interstate 95 and the Dulles Toll Road.
Hurried motorists would have a way to move faster, state officials said, and the money collected could go toward a longer-term traffic solution, such as increasing bus and rail service or improving roads.
"This is a completely new opportunity to manage our highways to give people more choices and get more capacity out of the existing system," said Tom Farley, the Northern Virginia administrator for the Virginia Department of Transportation.
The idea of high-occupancy toll, or "HOT," lanes has surfaced in the Washington region before, but it has never gotten a thorough look. This would be the first time Northern Virginia has studied it. Maryland planned to consider the idea for Route 50's new carpool lanes, but Gov. Parris N. Glendening (D) killed it in 2001, saying HOT lanes were unfair to lower-income drivers. Henry Fawell, a spokesman for Gov. Robert L. Ehrlich Jr. (R), said HOT lanes did not surface as a major transportation issue during the campaign. He said HOT lanes are not "an immediate priority on the governor's transportation agenda" but that Ehrlich might be open to proposals.
The region's Transportation Planning Board endorsed Virginia's application for the federal money yesterday. The vote was purely symbolic, but the fact that public officials even discussed the possibility of charging people for traffic relief represents a stark shift from the tepid political support HOT lanes have had locally.
Transportation officials across the country are eyeing HOT lanes as a potential solution to traffic and money problems.
Critics say the pay-to-move tolls amount to a tax that creates two tiers of roads, allowing the haves to zoom past the have-nots. Critics have dubbed them "Lexus lanes."
But supporters say the region's traffic woes and dismal financial outlook have gotten so bad that the "Lexus lane" argument is beginning to lose ground. Even the influential AAA, which loudly criticized the idea just 18 months ago, now supports examining HOT lanes as a way to generate badly needed money. It is one of the few potential traffic solutions on which the AAA, highway officials and environmentalists agree.
"I haven't been a fan of HOT lanes, but the fact is we have no money to build roads or mass transit in our region," said Lon Anderson, spokesman for mid-Atlantic AAA. "If we're going to fix our transportation system, it looks like the money is going to have to come from tolls."
Northern Virginia officials took great pains yesterday to tout the lanes as a way to ease traffic, reduce air pollution and use every inch of spare pavement in an otherwise jam-packed road system.
"This won't take care of any short-term budget situation," Farley said. "We're not using this to raise money."
Transportation officials say studies of HOT lanes in southern California and Texas show that they are more "Lumina lanes" than Lexus lanes. Drivers of every income level have been willing to pay a few more dollars when in a hurry, whether they are trying to catch a plane or avoid a late pickup fee at their child's day-care center.
Motorists who have an electronic transponder on their vehicles, similar to Virginia's Smart Tag, can enter the carpool lane. A variable message sign tells them the going rate at that time. Tolls can change every five minutes or so, rising as the lanes become more crowded. Motorists are charged the toll in effect when they entered the HOT lane.
If the carpool lane starts getting too crowded, highway officials raise the toll, hoping to improve traffic flow. The toll rates in California vary from about 75 cents to about $4 during the morning and evening rush. The tolls are automatically deducted from the transponders. Charging more during peak times encourages people to drive at off-peak times, traffic experts say.
State officials say they would like to study opening I-66 inside the Capital Beltway to lone motorists willing to pay. That 11-mile segment is now restricted to carpooling during peak times, jamming side roads and creating one of the region's worst bottlenecks where single drivers are forced to divert from I-66 onto the Beltway. Carpoolers could continue to use the high-occupancy vehicles (HOV) lanes for free.
They say they also want to study HOT lanes on I-395 and on a widened Beltway. If funded, the study would take 18 months, Farley said.
© 2003 The Washington Post Company
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2003 at 11:23pm
I wonder if you'll be able to turn the transponder off if you happen to have one and enough passengers in the vehicle. I can't imagine "HOT" promoting carpooling in any way.
I don't think bringing back HOV-4 is a good idea. One of the stupidest bumper stickers I've ever seen was a "bring back HOV-4" one I saw once. That would mean installing/uninstalling my daughter's car seat every time I take her anywhere. It would also mean signifigantly longer lines for drivers, and longer waits for slugs going to less popular destinations.
I agree with dumping the CF(HOV-1) exemption. Especially before the hybrid GMC Suburban,Toyota Sequoia, and others like them are out. They will almost certainly qualify as low-emissions vehicles.
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2003 at 8:24am
Below is the text of a letter I plan to send to Tom Davis and others; please comment on it if you wish.
Bob
I recently learned of the Virginia Department of Transportation's plans to study the use of High Occupancy Toll (HOT) lanes on I-395 and I-66. I would like to express my strong opposition to this plan and study.
The purpose of HOV lanes is H-O-V -- to reduce traffic and congestion.
The HOV system in Virginia on 95 is the most successful in the country and now VDOT plans to mess it up because of their incompetence and overspending on the Springfield interchange.
Make no mistake -- any form of HOT lanes on 95 will ruin carpooling and the entire slugging system. I have been carpooling and slugging for 14 years and am somewhat of an expert on the issue. Traffic flow on the HOV lanes has increased substantially in the past few years and cannot handle a huge influx of single drivers. We don't need a million dollar study to tell us that.
In addition, there has been no mention in recent reports of the environmental benefits of carpooling and the fact that allowing everyone to use the car pools lanes will have a major impact on air pollution.
I am also concerned about the long-term effects on the HOV lanes of allowing the "hybrid" vehicles to use the lanes. As you may know, the carmakers are planning to ramp up the production of hybrids over the next few years, including the introduction of hybrid sport utes. Within a few years a high percentage of the new cars will be hybrid. What plans are in place to assure us the HOV will not be swamped with hybrids with one driver?
Tens of thousands of people have moved to Prince William, Stafford, and Fredericksburg in recent years. Perhaps the top issue fueling this growth has been a good commute to DC on either the HOV lanes or VRE. Let's make sure that the traffic flow in the HOV lanes continues to provide a good incentive for carpooling.
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Posted By: mlrdad
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2003 at 9:03am
quote:
Originally posted by Bob
[br]Below is the text of a letter I plan to send to Tom Davis and others; please comment on it if you wish.
Bob
I recently learned of the Virginia Department of Transportation's plans to study the use of High Occupancy Toll (HOT) lanes on I-395 and I-66. I would like to express my strong opposition to this plan and study.
The purpose of HOV lanes is H-O-V -- to reduce traffic and congestion.
The HOV system in Virginia on 95 is the most successful in the country and now VDOT plans to mess it up because of their incompetence and overspending on the Springfield interchange.
Make no mistake -- any form of HOT lanes on 95 will ruin carpooling and the entire slugging system. I have been carpooling and slugging for 14 years and am somewhat of an expert on the issue. Traffic flow on the HOV lanes has increased substantially in the past few years and cannot handle a huge influx of single drivers. We don't need a million dollar study to tell us that.
In addition, there has been no mention in recent reports of the environmental benefits of carpooling and the fact that allowing everyone to use the car pools lanes will have a major impact on air pollution.
I am also concerned about the long-term effects on the HOV lanes of allowing the "hybrid" vehicles to use the lanes. As you may know, the carmakers are planning to ramp up the production of hybrids over the next few years, including the introduction of hybrid sport utes. Within a few years a high percentage of the new cars will be hybrid. What plans are in place to assure us the HOV will not be swamped with hybrids with one driver?
Tens of thousands of people have moved to Prince William, Stafford, and Fredericksburg in recent years. Perhaps the top issue fueling this growth has been a good commute to DC on either the HOV lanes or VRE. Let's make sure that the traffic flow in the HOV lanes continues to provide a good incentive for carpooling.
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Posted By: bocagrant
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2003 at 11:00am
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This looks to me like the first salvo of payback for us (at least I voted "NO") voting the Regional Transportation Tax down. I expect there will be more to follow. Never forget these people are relentless when picking our pockets.
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Posted By: mlrdad
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2003 at 12:02pm
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I have written to Rep Tom Davis, Del Michele Mcquigg and Gov Warner protesting the proposed modificatiions to use of the HOV lanes. I encourage everyone else to do the same.[:(!]
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Posted By: tlschau
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2003 at 3:06pm
I hate these issues because I'm torn. As a slugger I'm obviously in opposition to this idea. However, as a taxpayer, toll roads represent the ideal way in which to pay for public goods, such as roads. But as a selfish individual, I place my own well being ahead of others and conclude that this toll proposal is a bad idea.
That being said, actions such as those taken by mlrdad will be necessary in order to put this "HOT" idea to rest. Let us not forget that slugging is not officially endorsed or recognized by VDOT so we must speak out in opposition to this if we are to be heard.
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Posted By: Matrix
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2003 at 4:46pm
Bob,
Do you have the address for Tom Davis so others can send a letter?
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Posted By: lrb1977
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2003 at 5:04pm
Governor Mark Warner
State Capitol
3rd Floor
Richmond, VA 23219
(804) 786-2211
The Honorable Tom Davis (represents the Woodbridge area)
306 Cannon House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515
(202) 225-1492
The Honorable Jo Ann Davis (represents the Fredericksburg area)
1123 Longworth House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515
(202) 225-4261
** I would send two copies of each letter to each office - one addressed to the Member and one addressed ATTN: Transportation Legislative Assistant.
I don't have the State Offices and Member addresses in front of me right now, but I would suggest righting to your local state rep also. You can call the numbers above and they should be able to provide that information to you.
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2003 at 5:46pm
email addresses; (I dont have the VDOT supervisor's email)
Rep Davis
tom.davis@mail.house.gov
Senator John Warner
senator@warner.senate.gov
Pr Wm Board of Supervisors link
http://www.co.prince-william.va.us/bocs/
VA State Rep Scott Lingamfelter
del_lingamfelter@house.state.va.us
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Posted By: mlrdad
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2003 at 8:34am
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Received an reply from my note to Delegate Mcquigg. Shey says in a survey she took 62% of responders were against the idea. She seems a bit luke warm on the issue though so we need to keep those cards, letters and e-mails coming.[^]
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Posted By: USA
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2003 at 10:02am
quote:
Originally posted by MDC
[br]I wonder if you'll be able to turn the transponder off if you happen to have one and enough passengers in the vehicle. I can't imagine "HOT" promoting carpooling in any way.
To "turn off" the Smart Tag, take it off the windshield and stick it in the glove compartment. E-ZPass provides a "no read bag," but Smart Tag doesn't--after all, in VDOT's mind nobody from Virginia ever leaves the Commonwealth.
If they are serious about HOT lanes--and Maryland is rumoured to be considering them as well--VDOT will HAVE to get rid of its stupid Smart Tag system and integrate with the rest of the East Coast on E-ZPass.
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Posted By: wdossel
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2003 at 6:42am
quote:
Originally posted by jstancil
[br]Rather than spending $1M on a study, why don't they use the money to hire more cops to bust HOV violators? The fines collected would pay back the $1M over time. Heaven knows how many violators use the HOV lanes every day. If I had a dollar for every violator I see everyday, I wouldn't have to work!
Or use the money towards security in commuter lots or add more ramps to HOV lanes to make it more accessible for people north of Alexandria?
We all know the slugging system works -- it's been in effect for over 10 years. Why throw money away on a study when we all know what the outcome already is?
Hear, Hear !!! (clap, clap, clap)[:)]
- Will
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Posted By: Admin
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2003 at 6:00am
(Recovered postings from corrupt database - admin)
You know, if they want to raise money, why don't they just patrol the HOV lane more. I see single riders on there ALL the time during "peak" hours. It irritates me when I go to the trouble to find someone to ride with me and they're all alone with NO consequence. And they should pull them over for the world to see. Not as they're getting off the exit ramp, but actually on the HOV lanes. This would generate money and free up the HOV lanes some. And I agree on extending the time to 6:30. It's not that hard to find someone to ride with you if you want to avoid traffic.
mirangus
Average Member
48 Posts
Posted - 27 Jan 2003 : 09:33:49
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You know, I've been doing a little thinking about the whole "police patrolling the HOV lanes more" issue, and I gotta be honest and say that I think the police might be on the right track with what they are doing with their enforcement of regulations. If they monitored the HOV lanes, everyday, during restriction times, everybody would know and no one would violate them. However, with the way it works now (cops show up all at once after no presence for a while), seems to catch more people randomly. The cops will be scarce for weeks at a time and then show up and do a violator sting where they all come out and nab violators. This inconsistancy allows for more violators all around an more revenue for VA. There will always be people that think that think it's OK to play if they think the cat is away. The cops aren't going to catch everybody, but they'll catch more in the long run than if they don't make their presence known constantly. Kinda makes you wonder what the real goal is. To enforce HOV restrictions, making it fair for those who take the time to find other passengers, or lure violators in with their lack of presence so they can nab more in the long run?
Don't scratch your head too hard on that one...
What I really wonder is this...
Why do cops pull somebody over to write an $80.00 speeding ticket when they could pull someone over and write them a $200.00 HOV violation ticket. Never understood that one. But I'm a little biased on THAT issue.
nina
Starting Member
1 Posts
Posted - 27 Jan 2003 : 15:02:39
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I think converting the HOV lanes to HOT lanes is a great idea - they just need to set the toll high enough that no one will use it as a commuter lane. Say, $15 each way, same price, any entrance. That way, if someone has a GENUINE need to use the lane, say a 9 am flight out of Dulles, they can pony up their 15 bucks, get their big red "I am not a cheater" windshield sticker at the toll booth (which they will give back at the outgoing booth), and head on down. I don't think many people will want to spend an extra $150 a week on commuting costs (plus gas & parking). If they do, raise the toll to $20 or $25.
jstancil
New Member
10 Posts
Posted - 27 Jan 2003 : 15:28:19
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quote:
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Originally posted by nina
[br]I think converting the HOV lanes to HOT lanes is a great idea - they just need to set the toll high enough that no one will use it as a commuter lane. Say, $15 each way, same price, any entrance. That way, if someone has a GENUINE need to use the lane, say a 9 am flight out of Dulles, they can pony up their 15 bucks, get their big red "I am not a cheater" windshield sticker at the toll booth (which they will give back at the outgoing booth), and head on down. I don't think many people will want to spend an extra $150 a week on commuting costs (plus gas & parking). If they do, raise the toll to $20 or $25.
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Why pay a high toll when there's OmniLink, VRE, MARC, etc? Why not use these options rather than employing a STUPID study to allow non-HOV vehicles in the HOV lanes by paying a heavy toll? If the gov't would subsidize these transportation options, they could lower their fares and attract more riders. Most of the options mentioned even stop at central metro stops where buses are prevalent.
gg
Senior Member Member
55 Posts
Posted - 27 Jan 2003 : 16:09:02
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Mirangus,
Regarding your question as to why an $80 speeding ticket vs. $200 HOV fine, the first offense for HOV is only $50, second $100, third $250, and fourth $500. Also tack on another $47 for processing fees. So, speeding fines can bring in more revenue. However, "tbey" say speeding endangers the safety of others, but IMHO speeding with the flow of traffic, that is, not cutting in and out of traffic, is fine.
gg
gg
Senior Member Member
55 Posts
Posted - 27 Jan 2003 : 16:25:21
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Nina,
I like your idea but only if the toll charges are dynamically set by the given traffic conditions. For example, if traffic starts off light, then the charge should be nominal, but as traffic builds in the HOV lanes, the charges should increase in proportion.
One problem with this idea is how to correctly monitor the actual volume of traffic. Additionally, the system must ensure that it charges enough to keep the demand at bay in order to minimize congestion. Come to think of it, aren't the HOV lanes already congested?
gg
MDC
Junior Member
19 Posts
Posted - 27 Jan 2003 : 19:25:10
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If they use the transponder system as suggested, how does anyone suppose they'd enforce it? The only thing I can think of is to have police at the exits with the equipment necessary to detect it, otherwise it's impossible.
Yes, the HOV lanes are already congested, the only thing more cars will do is slow everyone down. That's why I'm concerned about the CF exemption.
I agree whole heartedly, this idea STINKS!!! If there were more patrols on the HOV to catch the violators they would have more than enough funds to cover whatever it is they need funding for. It appears this is just a way to not do thier jobs (traffic cops). I think we should go to HOV-4 and inforce the rule of occupancy. Tell me where do I go to submit my opposition to this. Hopefully they (those in charge) don't just pass this without public input.
gg
Senior Member Member
55 Posts
Posted - 29 Jan 2003 : 09:42:13
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gullahgirld2,
Even if you caught all HOV violators, VDOT will always need more revenue. So the HOT idea is a way to gain revenue and OPTIMIZE traffic throughput for everyone. Same thing with allowing Clean Fuel (CF) vehicles into the HOV lanes, it is a way to get more cars into the HOV lanes because the HOV lanes are not yet saturated and so they think it is not being used optimally. It appears that the HOV lanes are marginal at being express lanes where congestion appears to be growing. So, HOT will eventually clog the HOV lanes unless they can regulate how many HOT cars enter the HOV lanes.
gg
viper
Junior Member
15 Posts
Posted - 29 Jan 2003 : 14:25:09
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quote:
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Originally posted by gg
[br]gullahgirld2,
Even if you caught all HOV violators, VDOT will always need more revenue. So the HOT idea is a way to gain revenue and OPTIMIZE traffic throughput for everyone. Same thing with allowing Clean Fuel (CF) vehicles into the HOV lanes, it is a way to get more cars into the HOV lanes because the HOV lanes are not yet saturated and so they think it is not being used optimally. It appears that the HOV lanes are marginal at being express lanes where congestion appears to be growing. So, HOT will eventually clog the HOV lanes unless they can regulate how many HOT cars enter the HOV lanes.
WHAT???!!!
gg
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Arbo
Advanced Member
103 Posts
Posted - 30 Jan 2003 : 12:16:18
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gg - your logic doesn't hold water. Moving individual cars from the 3-5 lane mainlines to the 2 lane HOV will just make things WORSE for everyone. All you have to do is be on I95/395 coridor at 5:45am. When I was coming in at that time, ALL the lanes were clogged (main and HOV). the HOV wouldn't open up until about 6:15-6:30am, with the mainlines seeming no worse/better at that time. They need to CUT DOWN on the number of vehicles period. CF cars do just the opposite. Also, cutting down on the number of cars on the road lessens the wear and tear on the roads, meaning the roads should require less maintenance. The only way to do that is to entice people to car pool or take public transit (trains, buses, etc). So slugging not only lets me get to/from work faster, it also helps oethers do the same and possibly save money on taxes.
mlrdad
Junior Member
13 Posts
Posted - 31 Jan 2003 : 12:12:13
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Well, I have received a reply on the issue from the governors office. It reads in part: "....The concept behind value pricing is to allow persons to pay a toll to use the HOV lanes rather than meet the occupancy requirement. While it has not been tested in Virginia, this concept has proven beneficial in other areas of the country. In addition to reducing travel times for those individuals willing to pay the toll, value pricing relieves congestion in the conventional lanes as well, benefiting those who choose not to pay the toll.
The impact of HOT lanes on the slugging community will be considered as part of any study...."
Some benefit!!! The HOV lanes will become congested (just check prior to 6 AM), more cars will be going to DC (have fun finding parking)and of course the mutual benefit to drivers and riders of slugging will be diminished. Looks to me like we have got to keep those letters and cards going to the state. Interestingly, I have not received a reply from any of my federal elected representatives.
gg
Senior Member Member
55 Posts
Posted - 03 Feb 2003 : 16:58:09
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Arbo/Viper,
I slug and absolutely agree that HOT and CF cars will worsen things for everyone. But from the perspective of VDOT, they really only care about how much volume of cars they can push through the 95/395 corridor. For example, when there is a bad accident in the regular main lanes, VDOT lifts HOV restrictions and then traffic is bad for everyone. Or how about bad snow days, HOV is lifted and everyone suffers. On an average day, during the mean hours of HOV (i.e. not 15 minutes before HOV is lifted) you have to admit that in "general" the HOV lanes are less congested than the regular lanes. I've written to VDOT before and their main concern (in conjunction with the State Police and Incident Commander) is to move people and goods safely and efficiently. I believe that the HOV lanes are a benefit to those that car pool and should not be tampered with!
gg
speckd
Starting Member
4 Posts
Posted - 19 Feb 2003 : 11:40:52
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Yes but for those of us where no slug lines are setup - aka - dulles toll road - hot lanes become a good idea. I cannot HOV unless I find one other person to share my car (which I have tried, again and again to find and have not been lucky) from Ashburn to Crystal City.
So I can see why you all would not be happy but I for one think it will benefit my commute.
Arbo
Advanced Member
103 Posts
Posted - 19 Feb 2003 : 13:55:31
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speckd - are there any slug lines out that way? Would you consider taking someone to the Pentagon or somewhere else close to CC so you could use the HOV? I see that often down at 610 where drivers to CC will pick up slugs for the Pentagon or vice versa.
Maylo
New Member
9 Posts
Posted - 20 Feb 2003 : 16:38:22
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I agree! Back when HOV first began (you had to have four people in the car), the whole idea behind having such lanes was to PROMOTE carpooling and lower the number of cars on the road. It seems like every time you turned around over the years, decisions were made to benefit the single driver and not to promote carpooling. It would be laughable if we were living in a sitcom. Decisions such as this HOT hairbrained idea, the hybrid vehicles that ARE burning gas at highway speeds, shortening the HOV evening hours from 6:30pm to 6:00pm years ago (Washington Post article said that this was due to pressure of SINGLE drivers on their local politicians), opening up the section going south starting at Edsall Road for the Springfield folks so they wouldn't be caught in the beltway mess (this has been in effect for years and not just before the Springfield Interchange Construction. I read in the paper at the time that once again, a high volume of SINGLE drivers complained and so the local politicians got this part open for them.) People tend to forget this stuff or have moved here since all of this has happened. HOW COULD ANY OF THESE DECISIONS POSSIBLY PROMOTE CARPOOLING? ANSWER: THEY DO NOT. PUTTING PRESSURE ON YOUR POLITICIANS IN LARGE VOLUMES GETS RESULTS NO MATTER WHAT YOUR ISSUE IS, EVEN IF IT IS CONTRARY TO THE STATE'S INITIAL INTENT TO GET MORE CARS OFF THE ROAD. These ill-thought out decisions only serve to benefit the single drivers and bring more of the former carpoolers into the single driver mix because they are not inconvenienced. With each decision, you can't blame the ex-carpoolers, because their incentive to carpool diminishes with each knuckle-headed decision.
quote:
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Originally posted by speckd
[br]Yes but for those of us where no slug lines are setup - aka - dulles toll road - hot lanes become a good idea. I cannot HOV unless I find one other person to share my car (which I have tried, again and again to find and have not been lucky) from Ashburn to Crystal City.
So I can see why you all would not be happy but I for one think it will benefit my commute.
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Maylo
New Member
9 Posts
Posted - 20 Feb 2003 : 16:42:34
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Sorry, copied the wrong quote for response. I meant for the above message to be in agreement w/gg and those that don't agree with this new proposal.
gg
Senior Member Member
55 Posts
Posted - 21 Feb 2003 : 11:57:09
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Maylo,
You make some very good points, thanks for making us aware of what happened in the past. Here's another one, do you remember when there was the HOV-2 study? Well that costly study proved worthless. If I recall, the Governor noticed that the HOV-3 lanes weren't fully utilized and so initiated the study. Any sensible person could have just observed the volume of traffic in the HOV lanes and report back that HOV-2 would clog things up. The HOV lanes seem like something that politicians can justify manipulating, like taxes, and screw things up.
gg
aalso
New Member
5 Posts
Posted - 21 Feb 2003 : 12:38:02
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gg--
I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "any sensible person" - apparently there aren't any in these decision-making processes. I'm all for bombarding our politicians with STRONG complaint letters and I will certainly do so.
Arbo
Advanced Member
103 Posts
Posted - 21 Feb 2003 : 13:36:59
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Speaking of getting cars off the road, here's an interesting article about how they're solving the terrible congestion problem in London and elsewhere in Europe (http://www.msnbc.com/news/874804.asp?0cl=c1). Maybe VA and MD should make ALL the Interstates going "inside the beltway" into toll roads (say $10 for those cars with less than 3 people in them) and use the resulting $$ to improve mass transit.
gg
Senior Member Member
55 Posts
Posted - 21 Feb 2003 : 14:14:25
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aalso,
I did write to a bunch of people (politicians if you insist) that might possibly care about the issues concerning HOT. I received only one reply from a Mr. Pierce Homer, Deputy Secretary of Transportation for VDOT who was appointed by Governor Warner. Mr. Homer thanked me for my comments and assured me that my concerns would be "built into" all and every study of HOT lanes.
aalso, I also agree with you that if politicians are bombarded with letters, they will be influenced and I'm glad to see that you intend to do so. Unfortunately, I think we're outnumbered by single drivers. Nevertheless, I intend to keep up with my efforts.
gg
gg
Senior Member Member
55 Posts
Posted - 21 Feb 2003 : 14:26:00
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Arbo,
I see your point, but for me, $10 is worth the time to use the HOV/HOT lanes. Say if you increased it to $20 so that there are few that would pay that amount, you know that VDOT (or someone in power) would decrease it so that they can get more payers in the HOV/HOT lanes to increase revenues. Ultimately, these lanes will become congested. Like Maylo said, "...incentive to carpool diminishes with each knuckle-headed decision."
gg
Thanks for your response gg. I suspect you are right about being outnumbered by the single drivers because they have always outnumbered us in the past with respect to complaining to the state, etc. But, like, you, I will continue with the letters/e-mails...
quote:
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Originally posted by gg
[br]aalso,
I did write to a bunch of people (politicians if you insist) that might possibly care about the issues concerning HOT. I received only one reply from a Mr. Pierce Homer, Deputy Secretary of Transportation for VDOT who was appointed by Governor Warner. Mr. Homer thanked me for my comments and assured me that my concerns would be "built into" all and every study of HOT lanes.
aalso, I also agree with you that if politicians are bombarded with letters, they will be influenced and I'm glad to see that you intend to do so. Unfortunately, I think we're outnumbered by single drivers. Nevertheless, I intend to keep up with my efforts.
gg
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Jah
New Member
10 Posts
Posted - 21 Feb 2003 : 15:04:13
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I'm with you guys who are writing letters. I'll do the same. It at least affords us a chance. If we stay silent, there is virtually no chance.
USA
Senior Member Member
52 Posts
Posted - 21 Feb 2003 : 17:09:39
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Ed Koch once tried imposing an $8 toll on single-occupant vehicles on all the bridges and tunnels into Manhattan (including the ones that have long been free). AAA sued and won.
Virginia and Maryland probably cannot legally do what you describe because the law governing Interstate highways prohibited building interstates as toll roads (existing toll roads that became part of the system, like the Pennsylvania Turnpike, were grandfathered in). I guess I-395 was there prior to the Interstate era (it was VA-350), but who knows how the law applies. I imagine there might be a constitutional challenge as well insofar as the new tolls might interfere with interstate commerce (states cannot constitutionally place undue burdens on interstate commerce). I think tolling may be allowed when a highway is reconstructed if it's the only way to get the funding. VDOT's plans for rebuilding I-81 involve separate lanes for cars and trucks (like the New Jersey Turnpike) with tolls on at least the truck lanes.
I know there are some federal laws on HOV lanes but I don't know what they are.
quote:
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Originally posted by Arbo
[br]Speaking of getting cars off the road, here's an interesting article about how they're solving the terrible congestion problem in London and elsewhere in Europe (http://www.msnbc.com/news/874804.asp?0cl=c1). Maybe VA and MD should make ALL the Interstates going "inside the beltway" into toll roads (say $10 for those cars with less than 3 people in them) and use the resulting $$ to improve mass transit.
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Edited by - USA on 21 Feb 2003 17:11:51
mirangus
Average Member
48 Posts
Posted - 24 Feb 2003 : 15:50:16
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I would like very much to write to those that matter and voice my displeasure in this option. To whom do I write and where? Thanks!!
speckd
Starting Member
4 Posts
Posted - 25 Feb 2003 : 10:14:06
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I am not sure where or what is 610?
No if there were slug lines along the dulles corridor like at the loundoun county transit area (big bus lot where there is also parking) into CC or Pentagon - I would gladly take dulles toll to 66 (inside the beltway becomes HOV3) and get to work that way and pick up folks in CC and or the Pentagon. But I have yet to see such a slug line anywhere.
USA
Senior Member Member
52 Posts
Posted - 26 Feb 2003 : 09:10:55
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I-66 is HOV-2 both inside and outside the Beltway, not HOV-3. That law was changed over eight years ago.
quote:
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Originally posted by speckd
[br]I am not sure where or what is 610?
No if there were slug lines along the dulles corridor like at the loundoun county transit area (big bus lot where there is also parking) into CC or Pentagon - I would gladly take dulles toll to 66 (inside the beltway becomes HOV3) and get to work that way and pick up folks in CC and or the Pentagon. But I have yet to see such a slug line anywhere.
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Posted By: jerryclapham
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2003 at 1:37pm
The HOV lanes at this time a running effectively and effiecntly. Now lets double or triple the number of cars in the HOV lanes that are carrying less people because there would be altneratives to picking up slugs or car pooling. In addition there will be bottleneckl on the HOV because of increased volume. (e.g. exit ramp to the Pentagon). This will defeat the whole purpose of the HOV lanes on 95/395. Once again some politican has gotten a bug up their butt about the HOV lane. Now they want to spend tax dollars to do a study on HOT lanes. VADOT did a study (cost$1.4 million) several years ago on the effects of lowering the HOV from 3 to 2 on 95. They were surprised when carpoolers and slugs came out in droves to tell them what a diaster it would be. VADOT will get the same conculting firms and hire people who never travel the 95/395 on a regular basis in rush hour. I think that everyone should start writing their elected officals and tell them to stop crap and put the money into new highways or back in oour pockets.
I also think that these alternative fuel cars are also a problem that needs to be address by legislation SOON before they start clogging the HOV Lanes.
Jerry
Jerry
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Posted By: Admin
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2003 at 6:34am
Please post all messages regarding HOT in the thread called "HOT Lanes". This message thread has been locked from future postings in order to consolidate all comments into one thread!
Admin
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