Compromise: Hybrids = HOV-2
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Forum Name: Hybrids
Forum Description: This area is devoted to the discussion of hybrid vehicles and their impact to the HOV.
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Topic: Compromise: Hybrids = HOV-2
Posted By: portermg
Subject: Compromise: Hybrids = HOV-2
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2009 at 10:35am
Would making Hybrid vehicles required to have 2+ riders be a good alternative solution? Therefore, the people who complain about too many hybrids would be able to see that they at least will have to have additional riders, and the hybrids would still benefit from having their eco-friendly vehicles in the HOV lanes...
Please post your thoughts...
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Replies:
Posted By: Pele
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2009 at 8:53pm
Forget eco-friendliness. The environment is something to be sucked into an engine, burned, and sent out a tailpipe.
HOV is to reduce the number of vehicles on the road and save space, not the environment. It's why motorcycles are allowed; four motorcycles can fit into the space of one fairly large sedan.
End the Hybrid exemption. In fact, raise the limit to HOV-4 like it was in the 80's.
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Posted By: DrChen
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2009 at 12:05am
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What's the difference of having 2 or 1 in a hybrid. They still have to stop to pick up someone or put 2 people in it anyways. Why not just stick with the 3 or like the above 4 for HOV... people has to stop anyways.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2009 at 9:55am
quote:
Originally posted by Pele
Forget eco-friendliness. The environment is something to be sucked into an engine, burned, and sent out a tailpipe.
HOV is to reduce the number of vehicles on the road and save space, not the environment. It's why motorcycles are allowed; four motorcycles can fit into the space of one fairly large sedan.
End the Hybrid exemption. In fact, raise the limit to HOV-4 like it was in the 80's.
Actually, the reverseable lanes on I95/I395 are EXPRESS LANES. HOV became an expemption after the lanes were built and began operations. The hybrid exemption is a natural evolution. After all, do you recall that earlier this year there was a program called "Cash for Clunkers?" The major difference between the two programs is that for the latter, you spent your tax dollars so someone else could have a discount on improving the environment. With the hybrid exemption, the potential is for more cars to be traded in with better results.
It's really time to end the HOV exemption and allow only hybrids and mass transit into the express lanes. More cars would be off the roads as people in "informal" car pools would be faced with the choice of taking a bus and getting to work/home as if they were slugging, or being in the regular lanes at a crawl. Of cours, transportation revenue would increase as bus ridership increased, making it a win-win for everyone in Virgina.
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Posted By: mdog
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2009 at 1:47pm
Posted By: logrolls
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2009 at 2:17pm
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NO SUV, WRONG!....it's only express if you can actually travel in them - screw the eco propaganda that liberals have invented. I'd be down with HOV4 anyday.
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Posted By: Pele
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2009 at 9:52am
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
quote:
Originally posted by Pele
Forget eco-friendliness. The environment is something to be sucked into an engine, burned, and sent out a tailpipe.
HOV is to reduce the number of vehicles on the road and save space, not the environment. It's why motorcycles are allowed; four motorcycles can fit into the space of one fairly large sedan.
End the Hybrid exemption. In fact, raise the limit to HOV-4 like it was in the 80's.
Actually, the reverseable lanes on I95/I395 are EXPRESS LANES. HOV became an expemption after the lanes were built and began operations. The hybrid exemption is a natural evolution. After all, do you recall that earlier this year there was a program called "Cash for Clunkers?" The major difference between the two programs is that for the latter, you spent your tax dollars so someone else could have a discount on improving the environment. With the hybrid exemption, the potential is for more cars to be traded in with better results.
It's really time to end the HOV exemption and allow only hybrids and mass transit into the express lanes. More cars would be off the roads as people in "informal" car pools would be faced with the choice of taking a bus and getting to work/home as if they were slugging, or being in the regular lanes at a crawl. Of cours, transportation revenue would increase as bus ridership increased, making it a win-win for everyone in Virgina.
Cash for Clunkers was not an environmental improvement policy.
All the traded in cars were wasted. They poured an abrasive substance in the engine instead of oil and revved it until the engine was destroyed.
In the process, many engines overheated and spilled various fluids out onto the ground. Check YouTube for the destruction videos.
In addition, nobody took into consideration the energy it took to create those new cars. Many of the cars that were traded in were late 1990's to early 2000's SUVs still in good condition. I couldn't trade in my girlfriend's Honda Accord because it got 27 MPG when new. Unfortunately it was a clunker... It leaked several quarts per week of transmission fluid, black smoke came from the tail pipe if you accelerated, and the bumpers were falling off... We would have gladly traded it in on one of those "clunkers" that was traded in and destroyed.
Cash For Clunkers was a wasteful program that was intended to stimulate the economy. Fortunately for Korea and Japan, they produce the most fuel efficient vehicles.
If the HOV lanes are for environmental purposes, tell me, why am I NOT allowed to drive in them in my 2 seater 1991 Honda CRX HF. It gets 52 MPG, which is comparable to many modern Hybrids. It beats out the Toyota Highlander Hybrid, which IS allowed.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2009 at 12:32pm
quote:
Originally posted by logrolls
NO SUV, WRONG!....it's only express if you can actually travel in them - screw the eco propaganda that liberals have invented. I'd be down with HOV4 anyday.
Recommend you check your historical facts. The lanes are officially Express Lanes. Even the permanent signage indicates that. After all, they are restricted less than 50% of the day!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2009 at 12:54pm
quote:
Originally posted by Pele
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
quote:
Originally posted by Pele
Forget eco-friendliness. The environment is something to be sucked into an engine, burned, and sent out a tailpipe.
HOV is to reduce the number of vehicles on the road and save space, not the environment. It's why motorcycles are allowed; four motorcycles can fit into the space of one fairly large sedan.
End the Hybrid exemption. In fact, raise the limit to HOV-4 like it was in the 80's.
Actually, the reverseable lanes on I95/I395 are EXPRESS LANES. HOV became an expemption after the lanes were built and began operations. The hybrid exemption is a natural evolution. After all, do you recall that earlier this year there was a program called "Cash for Clunkers?" The major difference between the two programs is that for the latter, you spent your tax dollars so someone else could have a discount on improving the environment. With the hybrid exemption, the potential is for more cars to be traded in with better results.
It's really time to end the HOV exemption and allow only hybrids and mass transit into the express lanes. More cars would be off the roads as people in "informal" car pools would be faced with the choice of taking a bus and getting to work/home as if they were slugging, or being in the regular lanes at a crawl. Of cours, transportation revenue would increase as bus ridership increased, making it a win-win for everyone in Virgina.
If the HOV lanes are for environmental purposes, tell me, why am I NOT allowed to drive in them in my 2 seater 1991 Honda CRX HF. It gets 52 MPG, which is comparable to many modern Hybrids. It beats out the Toyota Highlander Hybrid, which IS allowed.
Pele,
Congratulations! You've managed to mangle several different points to come up with something totally off base. Let's see if we can break it into smaller segments for you.
- The lanes were originally designed and used as express lanes which could only be used by mass transit. The thought back then was that motorists would give up their cars for a bus ride if it would get them to their destination more quickly. The Express limited the on/off ramps and the merge - the planners felt that the merge slowed traffic. Compare with the express lanes in the Chicago area.
- HOV came about as an evolutionary thought. Even though the express lanes removed 7,000 vehicles per day, there was quite a bit of excess capacity in those lanes, and still quite a bit of traffic in the regular lanes. HOV was introduced primarily as a means of balancing the flow. Planners tinkered with the number of passengers required to balance that flow, wtih HOV-4 being used at one time on I95/I395. You'll note that even today, there are different HOV standards for different interstates in Virginia, with I66 being HOV-2.
- The evolutionary thought process continued as the legislature realized that Clean Special Fuel vehicles, just hitting the market, offered a couple of benefits: cleaner emissions and better fuel economy. If you'll recall, the rising pollution along major commuter routes was growing exponentially, along with the number of Code Red days. It's not mentioned so much because of the great success of the hybrid exemption, as well as other initiatives. The fuel economy was not the primary driver for the exemption, but of course, everyone benefits from the supply/demand dynamic of fuel usage.
So, let's talk about your '91 Honda and compare it to a hybrid. Do you still have to have an emissions test every other year? Or is it, like a hybrid, exempt? How does it compare for NOX or CO2 compared to that Highlander?
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Posted By: mdog
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2009 at 3:28pm
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Pele, don't waste your time arguing with him.
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Posted By: Pele
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2009 at 9:29pm
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
So, let's talk about your '91 Honda and compare it to a hybrid. Do you still have to have an emissions test every other year? Or is it, like a hybrid, exempt? How does it compare for NOX or CO2 compared to that Highlander?
From emissions test results (15/25 MPH Dynomometer readings)
NOx (ppm) 20/12 - Limit: 1146/1047
Carbon Monoxide (CO%) 0.06/0.08 - Limit: 1.43/1.84
Hydrocarbon (ppm) 1/2 - Limit: 168/164
They are well under limits and actually well under what they'd be brand new from the factory thanks to some creative reprogramming of the engine control module, custom wiring on the fuel injection electronics, and a high performance catalytic converter.
I bought the car and went over it from stem to stern. Better mileage and emissions than most compact hybrids, and it cost me less than five thousand dollars because I don't have the money for a fancy schmancy new hybrid... Well I do, but I don't believe in spending more than a couple thousand dollars on a car... You can't touch a hybrid for less than 10grand.
If you want something that's emissions exempt, how about my Ford pickup that runs on BioDiesel made from the grease from a Chinese Food restaurant?
Thanks for the great rundown of the history of the HOV lanes. I really don't care about the policies that were in place in the 1980's; I was in elementary school then.
We need a solution that works NOW.
Never mind the ecological benefits of a hybrid (Or lack thereof) Not everyone has the money or wants to spend the money to pay for a hybrid.
Everyone who has a 4 seat vehicle has the ability to pick up an additional few passengers.
And you are the one that bought up Cash For Clunkers... It was completely irrelevant. I voiced my opinion on the program, which was probably not a good idea seeing as how it wasn't part of the argument.
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Posted By: Pele
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2009 at 10:14am
quote:
Originally posted by mdog
Pele, don't waste your time arguing with him.
He shuts up if you give him something he can't counter.
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Posted By: RetiredMarine
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2009 at 11:44am
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
quote:
[i]
Recommend you check your historical facts. The lanes are officially Express Lanes. Even the permanent signage indicates that. After all, they are restricted less than 50% of the day!
Please enlighten all of us where we could find the historical facts concerning the HOV lanes. As I was stations here back in the early 80's and I don't recall it being for mass transit only.
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Posted By: ETC
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2009 at 4:22pm
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I own a hybrid and I realize that the exemption was a gimick to get people to purchase them. I'm not unrealistic to think that exemptions will be in place forever. Whatever. I'll either park my car and slug or pick up slugs or find a carpool or start one. Once the "free ride" is over, I'll just give others the free ride. Trust me, most slugs are happy of a safe, clean ride no matter what car they get in.
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Posted By: Pele
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2009 at 10:28pm
quote:
Originally posted by ETC
I own a hybrid and I realize that the exemption was a gimick to get people to purchase them. I'm not unrealistic to think that exemptions will be in place forever. Whatever. I'll either park my car and slug or pick up slugs or find a carpool or start one. Once the "free ride" is over, I'll just give others the free ride. Trust me, most slugs are happy of a safe, clean ride no matter what car they get in.
I actually rather enjoy being in a Hybrid, especially some of the less common ones. I'm keeping my eye out for one of the earlier Hybrid Ford Escapes to replace my truck and commuter car at the same time.
I like looking at the energy flow/MPG graphic displays.
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Posted By: scottt
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2009 at 3:58pm
quote:
Originally posted by Pele
I actually rather enjoy being in a Hybrid, especially some of the less common ones. I'm keeping my eye out for one of the earlier Hybrid Ford Escapes to replace my truck and commuter car at the same time.
I like looking at the energy flow/MPG graphic displays.
And having your air conditioning turn off when the engine shuts down.....
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2009 at 11:25pm
quote:
Originally posted by Pele
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
So, let's talk about your '91 Honda and compare it to a hybrid. Do you still have to have an emissions test every other year? Or is it, like a hybrid, exempt? How does it compare for NOX or CO2 compared to that Highlander?
From emissions test results (15/25 MPH Dynomometer readings)
NOx (ppm) 20/12 - Limit: 1146/1047
Carbon Monoxide (CO%) 0.06/0.08 - Limit: 1.43/1.84
Hydrocarbon (ppm) 1/2 - Limit: 168/164
They are well under limits and actually well under what they'd be brand new from the factory thanks to some creative reprogramming of the engine control module, custom wiring on the fuel injection electronics, and a high performance catalytic converter.
I bought the car and went over it from stem to stern. Better mileage and emissions than most compact hybrids, and it cost me less than five thousand dollars because I don't have the money for a fancy schmancy new hybrid... Well I do, but I don't believe in spending more than a couple thousand dollars on a car... You can't touch a hybrid for less than 10grand.
If you want something that's emissions exempt, how about my Ford pickup that runs on BioDiesel made from the grease from a Chinese Food restaurant?
Thanks for the great rundown of the history of the HOV lanes. I really don't care about the policies that were in place in the 1980's; I was in elementary school then.
We need a solution that works NOW.
Never mind the ecological benefits of a hybrid (Or lack thereof) Not everyone has the money or wants to spend the money to pay for a hybrid.
Everyone who has a 4 seat vehicle has the ability to pick up an additional few passengers.
And you are the one that bought up Cash For Clunkers... It was completely irrelevant. I voiced my opinion on the program, which was probably not a good idea seeing as how it wasn't part of the argument.
So, is the vehicle you quoted exempt from emissions testing? The hybrids are!
Want a transportation solution? Eliminate the carpool exemption in the express lanes. Keep the hybrid exemption. Make slugs choose to either:
- support funding for transportation improvements by taking mass transit
- purchase a hybrid to improve the environment as well as lower the dependence of the nation on foreign oil
- suffer in the regular lanes.
It's a solution we all can live (better) with.
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Posted By: Pele
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2009 at 10:17am
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
quote:
Originally posted by Pele
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
So, let's talk about your '91 Honda and compare it to a hybrid. Do you still have to have an emissions test every other year? Or is it, like a hybrid, exempt? How does it compare for NOX or CO2 compared to that Highlander?
From emissions test results (15/25 MPH Dynomometer readings)
NOx (ppm) 20/12 - Limit: 1146/1047
Carbon Monoxide (CO%) 0.06/0.08 - Limit: 1.43/1.84
Hydrocarbon (ppm) 1/2 - Limit: 168/164
They are well under limits and actually well under what they'd be brand new from the factory thanks to some creative reprogramming of the engine control module, custom wiring on the fuel injection electronics, and a high performance catalytic converter.
I bought the car and went over it from stem to stern. Better mileage and emissions than most compact hybrids, and it cost me less than five thousand dollars because I don't have the money for a fancy schmancy new hybrid... Well I do, but I don't believe in spending more than a couple thousand dollars on a car... You can't touch a hybrid for less than 10grand.
If you want something that's emissions exempt, how about my Ford pickup that runs on BioDiesel made from the grease from a Chinese Food restaurant?
Thanks for the great rundown of the history of the HOV lanes. I really don't care about the policies that were in place in the 1980's; I was in elementary school then.
We need a solution that works NOW.
Never mind the ecological benefits of a hybrid (Or lack thereof) Not everyone has the money or wants to spend the money to pay for a hybrid.
Everyone who has a 4 seat vehicle has the ability to pick up an additional few passengers.
And you are the one that bought up Cash For Clunkers... It was completely irrelevant. I voiced my opinion on the program, which was probably not a good idea seeing as how it wasn't part of the argument.
So, is the vehicle you quoted exempt from emissions testing? The hybrids are!
Want a transportation solution? Eliminate the carpool exemption in the express lanes. Keep the hybrid exemption. Make slugs choose to either:
- support funding for transportation improvements by taking mass transit
- purchase a hybrid to improve the environment as well as lower the dependence of the nation on foreign oil
- suffer in the regular lanes.
It's a solution we all can live (better) with.
No, my Diesel F350 truck is exempt from emissions though.
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Posted By: smithma
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2009 at 11:55am
So, is the vehicle you quoted exempt from emissions testing? The hybrids are!
Want a transportation solution? Eliminate the carpool exemption in the express lanes. Keep the hybrid exemption. Make slugs choose to either:
- support funding for transportation improvements by taking mass transit
- purchase a hybrid to improve the environment as well as lower the dependence of the nation on foreign oil
- suffer in the regular lanes.
It's a solution we all can live (better) with.
That's just a downright dumb response:
1- What does exemption from emissions test have to do with traffic.
2- If your purpose for purchasing a Hybrid was to save the environment, putting more cars on the road for longer periods of time due to traffic is counterproductive.
3- You can not buy a new Hybrid today and get the HOV exemption (unless you already had one)
4- In tough economic times telling people to spend more out of pocket on gas or public transportation does not make sense
Eliminating the Hybrid exemption:
1- Potentially reduces the number of vehicles in HOV or alternative increases the number of potential slug drivers
2- Improves traffic flow
3- Helps the environment by increasing the number of passengers per car. If you Hybrid is so great with SOV think about how wonderful for the environment it would be with 2 more passengers.
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Posted By: scottt
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2009 at 12:48pm
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Oh crap, who poked the @$%@#$# troll?
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Posted By: Pele
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2009 at 5:10am
BTW. I realized not only is my Diesel truck emissions exempt, but my track car is also going to be emissions exempt at the end of the year... It's from 1985.
It's also got straight pipes for the exhaust, no catalytic converter or mufflers, I've removed all the emissions controls from the engine, and it shoots flames from the tailpipe.
I suppose if I get tags for it, it should be allowed in the HOV lanes, you know... Since it's emissions exempt.
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Posted By: TWO
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2010 at 12:35am
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
Want a transportation solution? Eliminate the carpool exemption in the express lanes. Keep the hybrid exemption. Make slugs choose to either:
- support funding for transportation improvements by taking mass transit
- purchase a hybrid to improve the environment as well as lower the dependence of the nation on foreign oil
- suffer in the regular lanes.
It's a solution we all can live (better) with.
Those are some of the most stupid statements I've read on this site! Sure, eliminate carpools? Only let the two extremes in the express lanes: buses (large capacity) and cars with ONE person in it (minimally utilized). Let's all commute by ourselves in hybrids- now we're talking efficient and saving the environment!
And the other statement - we all buy hybrids to use the HOV lanes? That's already happened and all we see is average speeds decreasing.
NoSUV - I think you got some of your facts incorrect about the history of the HOV lanes. Where is the source of your information? Not that it really matters, but our lawmakers seem to re-interpret the laws and make changes that help their agenda. At this time, they have an agenda to promote "green" vehicles, which weren't a realistic option for the general public 25 years ago. Now they are. Over time and generations, the focus changes - it's even happened to our constitution. At one time the "express lanes" were used for mass transit and carpools. We know the "clean fuel" cars have been around for a while, and have been allowed in the HOV lanes for some time now. Then limited capacity, first generation hybrids come along (ex. Honda Insight). They get a waiver, yes a waiver for the "CF" tags (because the requirement for the CF tags is non-petroleum fueled cars) and therefore get into the express lanes.
I think I remember the "diamond" lanes were also for taxis (or did that only apply to DC?).
I don't know why you are so for "hybrids", and talk about reducing our dependency on foreign oil. Why not stand behind what you say, and use a non-petroleum fueled car, like LPG? Natural gas? Bio-diesel? They're out there and pollute LESS than you're gasoline burning hybrid? Why not pickup more people in your hybrid? I guess you don't care THAT MUCH about the environment, only a little.
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Posted By: Pele
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 10:27am
quote:
Originally posted by TWO
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
Want a transportation solution? Eliminate the carpool exemption in the express lanes. Keep the hybrid exemption. Make slugs choose to either:
- support funding for transportation improvements by taking mass transit
- purchase a hybrid to improve the environment as well as lower the dependence of the nation on foreign oil
- suffer in the regular lanes.
It's a solution we all can live (better) with.
Those are some of the most stupid statements I've read on this site! Sure, eliminate carpools? Only let the two extremes in the express lanes: buses (large capacity) and cars with ONE person in it (minimally utilized). Let's all commute by ourselves in hybrids- now we're talking efficient and saving the environment!
And the other statement - we all buy hybrids to use the HOV lanes? That's already happened and all we see is average speeds decreasing.
NoSUV - I think you got some of your facts incorrect about the history of the HOV lanes. Where is the source of your information? Not that it really matters, but our lawmakers seem to re-interpret the laws and make changes that help their agenda. At this time, they have an agenda to promote "green" vehicles, which weren't a realistic option for the general public 25 years ago. Now they are. Over time and generations, the focus changes - it's even happened to our constitution. At one time the "express lanes" were used for mass transit and carpools. We know the "clean fuel" cars have been around for a while, and have been allowed in the HOV lanes for some time now. Then limited capacity, first generation hybrids come along (ex. Honda Insight). They get a waiver, yes a waiver for the "CF" tags (because the requirement for the CF tags is non-petroleum fueled cars) and therefore get into the express lanes.
I think I remember the "diamond" lanes were also for taxis (or did that only apply to DC?).
I don't know why you are so for "hybrids", and talk about reducing our dependency on foreign oil. Why not stand behind what you say, and use a non-petroleum fueled car, like LPG? Natural gas? Bio-diesel? They're out there and pollute LESS than you're gasoline burning hybrid? Why not pickup more people in your hybrid? I guess you don't care THAT MUCH about the environment, only a little.
I can tell you the source of his info. It's part of the body that rhymes with "wrecked them" if you say it fast enough.
-------------------------
Times to beat:
Horner Rd to/from Pentagon: 12 mins Without Slugs - 17 mins With slugs
Dale City exit to/from 3rd St Tunnel, D.C. 18 mins (No slugs - Holiday)
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 11:48am
quote:
Originally posted by TWO
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
Want a transportation solution? Eliminate the carpool exemption in the express lanes. Keep the hybrid exemption. Make slugs choose to either:
- support funding for transportation improvements by taking mass transit
- purchase a hybrid to improve the environment as well as lower the dependence of the nation on foreign oil
- suffer in the regular lanes.
It's a solution we all can live (better) with.
Those are some of the most stupid statements I've read on this site! Sure, eliminate carpools? Only let the two extremes in the express lanes: buses (large capacity) and cars with ONE person in it (minimally utilized). Let's all commute by ourselves in hybrids- now we're talking efficient and saving the environment!
And the other statement - we all buy hybrids to use the HOV lanes? That's already happened and all we see is average speeds decreasing.
NoSUV - I think you got some of your facts incorrect about the history of the HOV lanes. Where is the source of your information? Not that it really matters, but our lawmakers seem to re-interpret the laws and make changes that help their agenda. At this time, they have an agenda to promote "green" vehicles, which weren't a realistic option for the general public 25 years ago. Now they are. Over time and generations, the focus changes - it's even happened to our constitution. At one time the "express lanes" were used for mass transit and carpools. We know the "clean fuel" cars have been around for a while, and have been allowed in the HOV lanes for some time now. Then limited capacity, first generation hybrids come along (ex. Honda Insight). They get a waiver, yes a waiver for the "CF" tags (because the requirement for the CF tags is non-petroleum fueled cars) and therefore get into the express lanes.
I think I remember the "diamond" lanes were also for taxis (or did that only apply to DC?).
I don't know why you are so for "hybrids", and talk about reducing our dependency on foreign oil. Why not stand behind what you say, and use a non-petroleum fueled car, like LPG? Natural gas? Bio-diesel? They're out there and pollute LESS than you're gasoline burning hybrid? Why not pickup more people in your hybrid? I guess you don't care THAT MUCH about the environment, only a little.
The site has been published several times. Go to the general topic thread and look at the post that describes the history.
Only in DC would people advocate HOV-3 over HOV-30
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Posted By: SlugsB1tch2Much
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 3:57pm
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<3 my hybrid, hate GMHP [:D]
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