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Booting hybrids from carpool lanes slows all

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Forum Name: Hybrids
Forum Description: This area is devoted to the discussion of hybrid vehicles and their impact to the HOV.
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Topic: Booting hybrids from carpool lanes slows all
Posted By: NoSUV
Subject: Booting hybrids from carpool lanes slows all
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2011 at 1:49pm
From the Los Angeles Times Tuesday, October 11, 2011, page B5. Article by Ronald D. White (ron.white@latimes.com).

"Booting hybrids from carpool lanes slows all, study says. Since low-emission vehicles lost that privilege, speeds have slowed for everyone."

The article references a US Berkeley study from their Institute of Transportation Studies, written by Michael Cassidy and Kitae Jang. The LA Times article concludes with:
"'Our results show that everyone is worse off with the program's ending,' Cassidy said.
'Drivers of low-emission vehicles are worse off, drivers in the regular lanes are worse off and drivers in the carpool lanes are worse off. Nobody wins.'"



Replies:
Posted By: ETC
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2011 at 6:22am
Not to poke a troll....

Felt this story needed to be reviewed and found the previous statement needs to be taken in context with the rest of the article:

"Among other things, the report's authors found that the additional vehicles in the regular traffic lanes slowed speeds substantially. That slower traffic made it more difficult for the carpool drivers to move in and out of the HOV lanes, slowing them down as well. The report's authors were Michael Cassidy, UC Berkeley professor of civil and environmental engineering, and Kitae Jang, a doctoral student in civil and environmental engineering."

Ok, California has HOV lanes that aren't separated from regular lanes like 66. There's no way removing several thousand SOVs from the 95/395 HOV would reduce traffic.


Posted By: Dale H
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2011 at 8:03am
Did the article say what percentage of hybrid drivers began picking up riders so they could continue to use the carpool lanes?

Dale H


Posted By: ETC
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2011 at 9:03am
Here's the full article. Article said there were 85,000 cars that lost the exemption and were now driving the main lanes, causing further congestion. The HOV lane (single lane)slowed down because carpoolers were having a hard time getting to/from the HOV lane. It is more an argument for separated HOV lanes like 95/395 not for hybrid exemption. It does seem that the hybrids didn't form car pools.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2011/10/kicking-hybrids-from-carpool-lanes-slows-everyone-down.html


Posted By: ETC
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2011 at 11:15am
This is probably a better article about hybrid impact:

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/9298/whos-causing-congestion-on-i-66-hybrids-or-scofflaws/


Posted By: bnvus
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2011 at 3:17pm
Well since hybrids get better gas mileage at slower speeds, think how much money they saved. They should have picked up riders. [:D]


Posted By: Dale H
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2011 at 7:44am
So, it appears the slow down was caused by a large number of hybrid drivers using the normal lanes instead of picking up riders. I suppose we are expected to conclude that it is advantageous to all of us to continue to let single passenger hybrids use the HOV lanes.

If the HOV lanes are underutilized, any strategy that shifts a controlled number of cars from the normal lanes to the HOV lanes should improve traffic flow. There is nothing special about hybrids. It makes just as much sense to allow Buick drivers to use the HOV lanes. We could have "Toyota Thursdays" where everyone with a Toyota is allowed in the HOV lanes, then "Ford Fridays". Or anyone whose license number ends in a "5" gets to use the HOV lanes on Wednesdays.

No, I am not serious, but my point is there is nothing special about hybrids.

Dale H


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2011 at 4:47pm
quote:
Originally posted by Dale H

So, it appears the slow down was caused by a large number of hybrid drivers using the normal lanes instead of picking up riders. I suppose we are expected to conclude that it is advantageous to all of us to continue to let single passenger hybrids use the HOV lanes.

If the HOV lanes are underutilized, any strategy that shifts a controlled number of cars from the normal lanes to the HOV lanes should improve traffic flow. There is nothing special about hybrids. It makes just as much sense to allow Buick drivers to use the HOV lanes. We could have "Toyota Thursdays" where everyone with a Toyota is allowed in the HOV lanes, then "Ford Fridays". Or anyone whose license number ends in a "5" gets to use the HOV lanes on Wednesdays.

No, I am not serious, but my point is there is nothing special about hybrids.

Dale H


Quite wrong. As I'm sure you are aware, the use of carpools to use the express lanes came about as an exemption back in the day. It's just been so long since that happened that some have forgotten that. And, as you are also likely aware, hybrids have about 20% of the pollution as conventional vehicles (sedan to sedan; if you compare to SUV's, the hybrids have a MUCH better advantage).


Posted By: Pele
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2011 at 5:21am
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV

And, as you are also likely aware, hybrids have about 20% of the pollution as conventional vehicles (sedan to sedan; if you compare to SUV's, the hybrids have a MUCH better advantage).



You factoring in the fuel is cost to run the equipment at the strip mine where they dug up the Nickel for your NiMH battery packs?

How about the cargo ship that moved the nickel from Canada to Japan for battery pack manufacturing?

Also, have you factored in the replacement battery pack? Both my Honda CRX and Ford pickup are from the late 80's with over 300,000 miles on them each... I guarantee you'll go through at least two battery packs in 20 years.

Carbon footprint envy is BS.

-------------------------
Times to beat:
Horner Rd to/from Pentagon: 12 mins Without Slugs - 17 mins With slugs
Dale City exit to/from 3rd St Tunnel, D.C. 18 mins (No slugs - Holiday)


Posted By: ETC
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2011 at 11:20am
Hybrid owners will not be keeping their cars to 100,000 miles. They'll be trading it in before the hybrid battery expires to avoid the $3000 replacement cost.

Also the hybrids have two batteries: the regular car battery and the rechargeable one. And they have to change their brake pads more frequently because of the charging method.


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2011 at 9:13am
quote:
Originally posted by Pele

quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV

And, as you are also likely aware, hybrids have about 20% of the pollution as conventional vehicles (sedan to sedan; if you compare to SUV's, the hybrids have a MUCH better advantage).



You factoring in the fuel is cost to run the equipment at the strip mine where they dug up the Nickel for your NiMH battery packs?

How about the cargo ship that moved the nickel from Canada to Japan for battery pack manufacturing?

Also, have you factored in the replacement battery pack? Both my Honda CRX and Ford pickup are from the late 80's with over 300,000 miles on them each... I guarantee you'll go through at least two battery packs in 20 years.

Carbon footprint envy is BS.

-------------------------
Times to beat:
Horner Rd to/from Pentagon: 12 mins Without Slugs - 17 mins With slugs
Dale City exit to/from 3rd St Tunnel, D.C. 18 mins (No slugs - Holiday)


Pele - previously asked and answered. Your concerns have been proved bogus.


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2011 at 9:16am
quote:
Originally posted by ETC

Hybrid owners will not be keeping their cars to 100,000 miles. They'll be trading it in before the hybrid battery expires to avoid the $3000 replacement cost.

Also the hybrids have two batteries: the regular car battery and the rechargeable one. And they have to change their brake pads more frequently because of the charging method.


Not all of this is true. I've had my hybrid for 140K and have yet to replace the hybrid battery. Can you say the same for your regular battery?

There is no difference in the brake pad wear from a non-hybrid vehicle.

But you are correct in that there are 2 batteries.


Posted By: Dale H
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2011 at 1:04pm
quote:
Quite wrong.


In the context of the article you posted, which dealt with commuting times and not pollution, my comments are Quite Correct.

If you want to talk about pollution we can, of course.

quote:
And, as you are also likely aware, hybrids have about 20% of the pollution as conventional vehicles


My understanding is that the 20% number was calculating assuming a mix of city and highway driving. The HOV lanes do not present such a mix. It is all highway.

I went to www.fueleconomy.gov to see how comparable cars compare in highway gas milage between hybrid and conventional models. According to them, a conventional 2011 Camry with a 2,5 liter 4 cylinder engine and automatic transmission gets 32 mpg. A hybrid Camry with 2.4 liter 4 cylinder engine and automatic transmission gets 35 mpg, or 9.375% more. I am not sure exactly how mpg relates to emmisions, but I am certain that a 9.375% increase in gas milage does not translate into an 80% reduction in emissions. I am equally certain, based on these numbers, that a single occupant hybrid does not produce less pollution per occupant than a comparable conventional vehicle with three occupants.

Dale H


Posted By: Pele
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2011 at 2:26pm
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV


Pele - previously asked and answered. Your concerns have been proved bogus.



Where?

-------------------------
Times to beat:
Horner Rd to/from Pentagon: 12 mins Without Slugs - 17 mins With slugs
Dale City exit to/from 3rd St Tunnel, D.C. 18 mins (No slugs - Holiday)


Posted By: realquick
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2013 at 3:46am
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV

quote:
Originally posted by ETC

Hybrid owners will not be keeping their cars to 100,000 miles. They'll be trading it in before the hybrid battery expires to avoid the $3000 replacement cost.

Also the hybrids have two batteries: the regular car battery and the rechargeable one. And they have to change their brake pads more frequently because of the charging method.


...
There is no difference in the brake pad wear from a non-hybrid vehicle.
...


quote:
Originally posted by ETC

And they have to change their brake pads more frequently because of the charging method.


Actually, your both wrong, they need to change their break pads LESS frequently. All diesel trains are hybrids that use regenerative breaking (ie, "hybrid breaking") even though they don't have energy storage BECAUSE it is easier on the breaks. They actually just dissipate the energy produced from regenerative breaking using giant resistors.

Think about it, there are only two places the kinetic energy can go when a car slows down. When it uses break pads, all of it goes into rubbing against and heating the break pads which slowly kills them. When a car uses regenerative breaking, the energy goes through a generator into a battery and puts no wear on the break pads.

There's not much difference though for hybrid cars b/c most of the wear on break pads comes from quick stops, which hybrid cars still use break pads for.


Posted By: realquick
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2013 at 4:06am
quote:
Originally posted by ETC

This is probably a better article about hybrid impact:

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/9298/whos-causing-congestion-on-i-66-hybrids-or-scofflaws/


Are you kidding? This article doesn't address any of the issues raised in the LA times article. This is the only useful piece of information in this article:

One person in a single location on a single day observed that 20% of the vehicles using the HOV road were hybrids. The average speed in the HOV was 30 - 40 mph, which was slower than free flowing(although he doesn't say by how much).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that the LA study should be applied to DC, but at least the article is based on a real study.


Posted By: grucker
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2013 at 3:59pm
Actually, your both wrong, they need to change their break pads LESS frequently. All diesel trains are hybrids that use regenerative breaking (ie, "hybrid breaking") even though they don't have energy storage BECAUSE it is easier on the breaks. They actually just dissipate the energy produced from regenerative breaking using giant resistors.

Think about it, there are only two places the kinetic energy can go when a car slows down. When it uses break pads, all of it goes into rubbing against and heating the break pads which slowly kills them. When a car uses regenerative breaking, the energy goes through a generator into a battery and puts no wear on the break pads.

There's not much difference though for hybrid cars b/c most of the wear on break pads comes from quick stops, which hybrid cars still use break pads for.

But how are Hybrids on Brake Pads? [:)]


Posted By: colossus911
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2013 at 10:37am
Yep, Journal of Industrial Ecology report from the WSJ. More carbon emissions than gas. Facts are tough things.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324128504578346913994914472.html?mod=rss_opinion_main


Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2013 at 12:22pm
quote:
Originally posted by colossus911

Yep, Journal of Industrial Ecology report from the WSJ. More carbon emissions than gas. Facts are tough things.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324128504578346913994914472.html?mod=rss_opinion_main


Looks like you forgot to read the article, and its assumptions - not facts. It makes assumptions about the manufacture that are not proven, it makes assumptions that are just wrong about the life of component parts, and it makes assumptions that seem unlikely about the total mileage of the vehicle before it is scrapped.

Yep - you are wrong AGAIN.

BTW, my 2002 Prius is still on the original battery, and has 3x the mileage quoted in the article. Try again when you have FACTS.


Posted By: marchf
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2014 at 11:20am

Instead of Buicks, how about veterans who are fed employees. Or how about just giving me a special pass? Under the hybrid logic, folks are paying for the HOV privilege, but the car dealer is the one who wins.


quote:
Originally posted by Dale H

So, it appears the slow down was caused by a large number of hybrid drivers using the normal lanes instead of picking up riders. I suppose we are expected to conclude that it is advantageous to all of us to continue to let single passenger hybrids use the HOV lanes.

If the HOV lanes are underutilized, any strategy that shifts a controlled number of cars from the normal lanes to the HOV lanes should improve traffic flow. There is nothing special about hybrids. It makes just as much sense to allow Buick drivers to use the HOV lanes. We could have "Toyota Thursdays" where everyone with a Toyota is allowed in the HOV lanes, then "Ford Fridays". Or anyone whose license number ends in a "5" gets to use the HOV lanes on Wednesdays.

No, I am not serious, but my point is there is nothing special about hybrids.

Dale H




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