Washington Post reporter seeks help on hybrids
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Forum Name: Hybrids
Forum Description: This area is devoted to the discussion of hybrid vehicles and their impact to the HOV.
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Topic: Washington Post reporter seeks help on hybrids
Posted By: Steven Ginsberg
Subject: Washington Post reporter seeks help on hybrids
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2004 at 10:50am
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I'm a reporter at the Washington Post and I'm doing a story on the exemptions allowed for people who own hybrid cars and other low emission vehicles. I'm interested in talking to people on all sides of this topic: those who own the cars, those who hate seeing single drivers whiz by them, those who have considered the exemption as a reason to move to the outer suburbs, etc. Please email me with any comments at ginsbergs@washpost.com
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Replies:
Posted By: JustWannaGetHome
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2004 at 1:16pm
Hi Steven,
If you really want to know all sides of this issue, the best place is to look at the following "topics" on the "General Slugging Topics" list serv on this Web site. You are going to have to go to the bottom right hand side of the page and request to see topics from the past year.
The titles of the topics that relate to this heated debate are: "A proposal for hybrids," "Hybrids-a threat to car-pooling," "Hybrids in HOV," "New Prius Review," and "Continued awful trips on HOV."
You will get every side possible, and then some. Good Luck and do us sluggers proud!
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Posted By: slugger94
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2004 at 10:20am
Steven, I am a slugger and sometimes I drive. I have been doing this for over two years. It use to take 20 minutes to go from the Horner Rd. Lot to the Pentagon and now it takes almost 30 minutes. I have to say that this is greatly attributed to the great number of CF vehicles that are allowed on the HOV without picking up other riders. A couple of years ago, I would see one maybe two CF vehicles each day. Now, at any given time, I would see three to four of them as I travel to and from the Pentagon.
The HOV is to help commuters get to and from work in the most efficient way. At the rate the number of CF cars are growing on the HOV lanes, commuters who are putting in the effort to car/vanpool or ride the bus find their commute getting longer and longer.
I feel that CF drivers should put in their fair share of helping to eleviate the traffic congestion that we all suffer instead of contributing to it. Granted the HOV lanes are still not as congested as the regular lanes but give it a year or two, we will see the traffic on the HOV crawling because of all these CF cars. VDOT should require tiny CF cars with two doors to have at least have two people and the four door CF cars to have three people like all other cars.
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Posted By: JustWannaGetHome
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2004 at 11:55am
Slugger94 I agree with everything you say. I just want to tweak the number of CF cars you see on the trip from Horner to the Pentagon from three or four....to 20 to 30 plus.
Every model of car is coming out with their own Hybrid, SUV Hybrids are coming out this year! It won't be long before we're all using the regular 95 lanes to avoid the congestion in the HOV lanes.
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Posted By: churchlady
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2004 at 1:10pm
I have understood for many years that the main reason for the HOV lanes is not to get folks to work faster but to reduce pollution caused by auto emissions. Hybrids and other CF vehicles help meet the goals of reducing auto emissions.
The incentive for our family to purchase our hybrid was to provide a greater deal of predictability to our commute. It is generally used in the a.m. trip by other family for three riders to an unusual commute location not served by public transit or slug lines. For a while the third person was dealing with unpredictable circumstances which caused last minute cancellation. With the hybrid, these last minute changes no longer make the other two late.
The CF vehicle is not the one I usuually drive since I can pick up slugs to the Pentagon. From time to time I have been able to use it for my commute. It saves significant time waiting for slugs (reducing the emissions produced while idling in the slug line for anywhere from 5 -20 minutes)and easily knocks an hour off a solo ride on 395 . Gas milage is phenominal, ranging from 45-50 mpg when I drive and even higher with it's regular driver.
The couple of times I stopped for slugs with the CF car I caught a vibe that I was unfair to non-CF slug drivers by taking away their riders. I guess I can't win!
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Posted By: emancilla
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2004 at 3:47pm
I was reading the info about the HOV lanes offered by this website that says:
"The intent of restricting the number of occupants is to encourage ridesharing, which in turn reduces the number of vehicles on the highway. With fewer vehicles, the HOV lanes operate generally with less congestion and are much faster than non-HOV lanes."
I doesn't say anything that the HOV lanes were created to reduce pollution caused by auto emissions. This is one of the benefits of ridesharing.
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Posted By: Zevida
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2004 at 7:25pm
I think that the only solution to the traffic problems that we have is to get cars off the road. Period. Hybrid vehicles do nothing to help that. Yes, lower pollution is wonderful and all, but Hybrids do not improve the commute for anyone as a whole. By picking up slugs every afternoon, I am eliminating two other cars from the afternoon commute. If we took away two-thirds of the vehicles traveling I-95 south, that would be a tremendous reduction of volume.
I do not support Hybrids in the HOV without three passengers because the goal of HOV is to reduce congestion, and Hybrids are not contributing to that end.
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Posted By: vabigblue
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2004 at 8:06am
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Steven, I guess this is the kind of dialogue you wanted and I believe you probably came to the right site for it. At any rate, let me add my two cents in addition to the posts I made in the threads alluded to by "JustWannaGetHome". I agree with all the posts except the one by "Churchlady". In my opinion, the HOV lanes are there for reducing congestion only. I don't understand why these vehicles are exempt from HOV requirements. It doesn't matter if they are clean fuel cars or not, they are still cars and should be subject to the same rules as my Ford Explorer and anybody else's whatever. In addition, while slugging to work this morning, I decided to count Hybrids - not to my surprise, between Tacketts Mill and the Pentagon, I counted a grand total of 51. At this rate, as the other posts indicate, we will soon be saturated by "CF" vehicles.
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2004 at 8:59am
If VDOT or local agencies wanted to, they could easily provide up to date numbers on how many hybrids are in the state, and on 95. We did get the overall numbers last year in the statewide HOV report (I am too lazy to look it up on my C drive) This information is being intentionally withheld in my opinion. Here is my estimate, and tell me if you think I am off base. I have heard that about 10,000 cars use the 95 HOV (anyone have a better number?). On average, I believe that we now have about 20% hybrids. That would be 2000 hybrids using the road. However, I note that the license plates are now up to almost 10,000. I know that most of the VA hybrids are in Northern VA (75%?). That would b 7500 in Northern VA. But it would seem that that would imply maybe 4000 hybrids for I-95. (Comments?)
Bob
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Posted By: vabigblue
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2004 at 10:46am
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Bob, I might add that some hybrids don't have the "CF" plates and some are from out of state, so we can probably add another 1-2% for those. Thanks
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Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2004 at 2:28pm
IMO ....
When it comes to hybrids in the HOV lanes ...
"Nearly ALL hybrids are 'slugless'", and
"Hybrids should be 'slugged'". [:D]
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Posted By: ronin718
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2004 at 1:18pm
quote:
Originally posted by vabigblue
[br]Bob, I might add that some hybrids don't have the "CF" plates and some are from out of state, so we can probably add another 1-2% for those. Thanks
If I remember correctly from a Dr. Gridlock (Washington Post) article, the HOV exemption only applies to those vehicles with the CF tags. Those without and out-of-state hybrids run the risk of getting ticketed, depending on the generosity of the boys in blue.
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Posted By: leblanc9425
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2004 at 10:38pm
Steve,
I am opposed to allowing hybrid's use the High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV). From my recollection, the HOV lanes were constructed as a result of the oil crises in the late 70's. Basically this was the government's attempt to encourage carpooling to reduce gas consumption but the only way they could encourage carpooling was to provide a real advantage - a shorter commute. If you were willing to carpool you were rewarded with less traffic and a faster commute. Clean air and reduced emission were a byproduct otherwise they would have been called "Clean Air Lanes"...
I applaud those who wish to purchase clean fuel vehicles, but are they really purchasing them for clean air or are they really just trying to shorten their commute? How many CF vehicles do you see on I95?
If you really want to make the case for the environment, the government should mandate that CF vehicles should NOT be allowed on the HOV where they are using their combustion engine and not the battery. To really maximize the advantages of the vehicle it should be used at low speeds (to use the battery) and in stop and go traffic which, by the way, is I95 not the HOV!
Now let's take this CF vehicle exemption to the logical extension if continued.
1) Instead of one vehicle on the road with three passengers you now have three vehicles with a single occupant each. But, it's actually more line 5 or 10 times the volume because a three fold increase only accounts for the people willing to carpool in the first place. There are thousands more who are unwilling to tolerate the insignificant inconvienences of carpooling. For the first time in their lives, they will become temporarily concerned with the environment and pretend it has nothing to do with the commute.
2) The three hybrid vehicle probably emit more emissions than the one non-hybrid it tends to replace.
3) Instead of one non-hybrid vehicle, there are now three hybrid vehicles on the highways which results in more highway maintenance. If pot holes are created after, say 100,000 vehicles, pass a give spot, then you have just triple the maintenance costs for the state.
4) Parking, already at a premium in DC, become even more expensive as more vehicle must find parking.
5) Worst of all, the HOV become worthless as an incentive to encourage high occupancy. If the HOV does not provide an advantage to sharing your car, then most people simply won't rideshare.
If CF vehicle were really about clean air and the environment, and not about the commute, then they should be held to the same standard as other vehiles and be required to have three occupants.
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Posted By: k2
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2004 at 3:36pm
I received my CF plates in the mail just 12 days after I bought my 2004 hybrid. I went to DMV in March, the day after I purchased my car and registered the car in my name. I then filled out a form available on the VA DMV site (http://www.dmvnow.com) and I faxed it to the DMV, who mailed me the plates a few days later. The key was that I resgistered my car myself, instead of letting the dealer take care of it. I can now drive on the HOV lanes by myself if I want to.
I am sorry that some sluggers are hostile towards hybrids and hybrid drivers. I picked up slugs in my last car, but I have not yet done so in my hybrid. I am enjoying my shortened 2 to 2.5 hour commute (each way) on my own for now. Picking up slug added only 15-25 minutes, so I may do that again soon.
I have not noticed an HOV congestion problem due to hybrids. I often drive HOV northbound around 8:30 AM, and the HOV lanes are nearly empty, while the SLOW lanes are packed and moving at 25MPH. I do not feel guilty about this, because I am not causing any harm. Perhaps at 7AM there is a big congestion problem due to hybrid cars? Any facts on this?
If hybrids (and alternative fuel vehicles) somehow take over the HOV lanes before 2006, I agree that we should consider halting the Clean Fuel HOV incentive.
-K2
quote:
Originally posted by RoadRunner
[br]You'll see a lot of hybrids in the HOV lanes without CF plates due to Virginia DMV consolidating all the CF plates to one location. This also explains why some 2004 models are issued plates that start with 3###CF.
From a co-worker: "When you buy a hybrid, you get a temporary paper tag good for at least 30 days, then you will be issued a normal, non-CF plate. After receiving the normal plates, you then have to apply for a CF plate and pay an extra $10. This whole process involves about 40 days before you finally get the CF plate via mail."
"What most of these hybrid drivers [*without CF plates*] fail to realize is that the State Police *will* issue you a ticket if you don't have 3 or more in your hybrid. The auto dealer who sells you the car should warn you; otherwise, make him pay your ticket if you get one. Don't fall for the 'Oh, state troopers can tell the difference between a hybrid and non-hybrid Civic by looking at the antenna and the wheels.'"
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Posted By: vabigblue
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2004 at 10:47am
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K2 - where are you slugging to and from. 2 to 2.5 hours each way???? You must be from Richmond! [?]
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Posted By: emancilla
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2004 at 12:13pm
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Vabigblue, I was going to ask the same question.
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Posted By: pb1974
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2004 at 1:04pm
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Well, I obviously can't speak for K2, but I live in Fredericksburg and it can easily take 2 hours to get to and from work. I leave home at 6:30am and get to work by 8:30 (8 if it's a light day). It's just as long in the evenings.
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Posted By: vabigblue
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2004 at 3:56pm
quote:
Originally posted by pb1974
[br]Well, I obviously can't speak for K2, but I live in Fredericksburg and it can easily take 2 hours to get to and from work. I leave home at 6:30am and get to work by 8:30 (8 if it's a light day). It's just as long in the evenings.
I guess that probably explains it. I didn't realize it took that long. Maybe I concentrate only on Tacketts; therefore anything outside of 1 hour (which is far too long) is foreign.
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Posted By: pb1974
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2004 at 8:39am
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I agree, va. Anything more than an hour (max) is too long. It's definitely not something I'll be able to do indefinitely.
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Posted By: Juli
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2004 at 1:18pm
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I can relate to the time K2 takes because I to live out of Fredericksburg and then off to the east 10 plus miles. 2 hrs is usually the norm.[|)]
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Posted By: emancilla
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2004 at 2:46pm
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It's unfortunate for you guys, who live in Fredericksburg, that the HOV lanes don't extend upthere. It should be. Maybe we see that in 10 years.
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Posted By: pb1974
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2004 at 4:29pm
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I'd love to see the HOV out there, or at least have a more reliable slugging system to/from Routes 3 and 17. But I'm sure I'll be long gone from this area before HOV makes it out there.[:)]
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Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2004 at 7:09am
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"The times, they are a-changin'" ... guess what... could hardly believe my eyes ... I saw saw two hybrids on I-395 this morning and each car had THREE occupants! Could this be a new trend of hybrids actually hauling slugs? My goodness! [:)]
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Posted By: tdar20
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2004 at 11:50am
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All this talk about Hybrid vehicles and nothing about the dramatic growth in our area? How can we forget about how fast Stafford county is expanding and the stress that it puts on all the reaffic lanes. I would be willing to bet the growth rate far exceeds the hybrid rate. SOmethign needs to be done about expanding the HOV lanes and not just with a tax increase!
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Posted By: Stuck2
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2004 at 1:49pm
I really don't think Hybrids are the cause of all problems. I own a hybrid. I have commuted from Warrenton, Fairfax, Alexandria and now Springfield into the city (18 years). I just think this area has grown horrendously in the past 10 yrs and the roads just aren't keeping up with the growth rate. The clog in the traffic is caused by the fact that the HOV lanes are opened to everyone at the Pentagon in the morning and Edsall Road in the evening. There's no clear flow of traffic. If you can't clear the road of cars, it doesn't matter how many cars are on the road -- there will be a traffic jam.
Also please note, off-duty policemen are allowed on the HOV and so are motorcycles -- they need as much space as a car.
Since I have joined the HOV crowd, I have never seen such aggressive driving! The speeds at which people travel are insane.
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Posted By: emancilla
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2004 at 11:22pm
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I think Hybrid cars are part of the problem. It's a combination of many things. HOV lanes open to all at the Pentagon in the morning and not only Edsall Rd in the evening but all cheaters that jump in near Springfield area. A police officer that pull over a car at the Springfield entrance cannot stop 20+cars behind. As this area keeps growing this rate, we'll be in trouble. We need the metro to extend up to Woodbridge at least.
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Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2004 at 7:22am
Hybrid report for Friday, April 23rd .... we spotted 5 hybrids on I-395 between Rt 644 and the P'gon this morning.
Occupant totals:
4 hybrids had only ONE occupant, and one hybrid had TWO occupants. Zero hybrids were HOV-3. What a shame ... those things get about 50 mpg and with 3 people on board, that would be 150 passenger miles per gallon (a better cost per commuter now that gasoline prices are almost $2 a gallon!) "Slug a hybrid!" [;)]
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Posted By: LisaDeanna
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2004 at 11:58am
I'm really surprised at how much hostility there is on this board towards hybrid drivers.
I don't have one, but I plan to get one as soon as I can afford one and my present car can't take any more miles. And yes, I will be doing it for the environment, but I will use the HOV lanes without an ounce of guilt on the days taking the bus or metro isn't a good alternative.
I think use of HOV lanes by Hybrid is a GREAT incentive to get more of those cars on the road. Clearly, since responsibility for the environment is not enough for some people, than a faster commute may lure drivers. So what if they are in it for the better commute? The result is reduced consuption of foreign oil: something that we all should feel patriotic and proud about.
Yes, congestion relief is definitely an aim of the HOV lanes, but so is reduced greenhouse gas emissions. I don't think people would realisticly expect the Hybrid-exception to the HOV requirement to last forever. But for now, I don't believe its adding that much to the HOV traffic.
Lisa
Loudoun-to-DC, formerly Germantown-to-DC.
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Posted By: Stuck2
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2004 at 12:16pm
The hostility is there. HOV drivers are very hostile. They are hostile to anyone driving under 70 mph. I have been almost run off the road; someone in a Toyota mocked shooting me (I commute with my daughter to her special school and that's the reason why I have a hybrid).
There's also another issue that hasn't been bounced around here. Why does I-66 have a longer HOV? I know that the traffic is horrendous out there and the HOV restriction is just 2. Haven't you all noticed it takes at least 20 minutes just to get out of the city? So if you leave your work at 5:30 you can BARELY catch the HOV. A lot of the hostility would diminish if everyone wasn't freaking out to get past Springfield by 6:00 pm.
Also, why not have a compromise of HOV 2 (like I-66) for hybrids.
Case in point to the volume of traffic on HOV: I left my house in Springfield at 8:10 am and was on the Hill by 8:25 am. Hey where's the traffic? Oh, it was right at the Pentagon over the 14th St. Bridge. Left the Hill at 5:20 pm; was on HOV by 5:45 pm; hit traffic at Edsall Road, but was home by 6:15. The times that traffic was backed up was when there was an earlier accident on the HOV lanes or on the bridge or the weather was awful or construction.
The real solution to traffic is to cut down on the total number of cars period through trains and other forms of public transportation.
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Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2004 at 12:42pm
Lisa D,
I really like hybrids and, like you, I'm considering getting one as our next car for the obvious environmental and fuel economy reasons. I see hybrids as the most fuel-efficient, environmentally friendly option available now for HOV commuting; but I, like many, would like to see all cars in the HOV lanes carry 3 or 4 passengers. (1 gas guzzler with 3 souls on board causes less congestion and less pollution than 3 gas guzzlers with only ONE person aboard ... likewise 1 hybrid with 3 souls on board is better for the same reasons than 3 hybrids with just ONE person aboard). My point is if we want to cut down the congestion, delays, and long back-ups on the I-95/I-395 HOV lanes, let's reduce the total number of cars by trying to put at least 3(or 4) people in each HOV car. Probably a mission impossible. [;)]
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Posted By: emancilla
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2004 at 1:00pm
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That is a fair way to see this situation, sludge. HOV-3 means 3 people per vehicle. Otherwise, it will defeat the purpose of reducing the total of vehicles on the road. Hybrids are not environmental friendly. They still consume gasoline we have to import from foreign countries anyway. Remember, we've almost exhausted our oil reserves. Even if we all convert to hybrids, we'll still have to import oil.
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Posted By: LisaDeanna
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2004 at 1:08pm
quote:
Originally posted by RoadRunner
The underlying objective of the HOV lanes is to reduce traffic -- not to get more hybrid cars on the road -- this defeats the purpose of an incentive. Hybrids are not environmentally friendly either. They still use gasoline and put out exhaust. One of the most environmentally friendly moves a hybrid owner can make is to pickup slugs.
I disagree. They are definitely environmentally friendly. They may not be envornmentally FLAWLESS, but they are the best vehicle out there when it comes to emissions (except for motorcycles).
And the best thing that any driver can do for the environment AND CONGESTION is take the bus. Slugging it obviously a great step in the right direction: using 1/2 to 1/4 of the fuel of a single driver. Taking the bus, has FAR better fuel economy than even slugging. But obviously, there are many times the bus just isn't a good option and that's why we're talking here.
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Posted By: bunker1
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2004 at 1:23pm
quote:
Originally posted by sluDgE
[br]Lisa D,
I really like hybrids and, like you, I'm considering getting one as our next car for the obvious environmental and fuel economy reasons. I see hybrids as the most fuel-efficient, environmentally friendly option available now for HOV commuting; but I, like many, would like to see all cars in the HOV lanes carry 3 or 4 passengers. (1 gas guzzler with 3 souls on board causes less congestion and less pollution than 3 gas guzzlers with only ONE person aboard ... likewise 1 hybrid with 3 souls on board is better for the same reasons than 3 hybrids with just ONE person aboard). My point is if we want to cut down the congestion, delays, and long back-ups on the I-95/I-395 HOV lanes, let's reduce the total number of cars by trying to put at least 3(or 4) people in each HOV car. Probably a mission impossible. [;)]
I agree with that logic .... 1 gas guzzling bus with 50 souls on board causes less congestion and less pollution than 15 gas guzzler cars with 3 persons each (45 persons) and 1 gas guzzler bus with 5 persons onboard. So I expect I will be seeing you all filling up those empty buses soon?????
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Posted By: vabigblue
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2004 at 1:29pm
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I'm sorry LisaD, but I disagree with parts of your comment. The hybrid may be enviornmentally friendly to a certain extent; however, that has nothing to do with HOV-3. Like someone before said, if it is such a positive to the environment, then why not restrict them (hybrids) to the regular lanes? There are certainly more vehicles in those lanes than the HOV lanes. I would think to take as many cars off the road as possible would apply to those lanes more. The real reason for HOV is to lessen congestion which really translates into slugging. Slugs and car-pooling is the real reason for less congestion, not some idea of mixing in another brand of vehicle for the purpose of "incentive".
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Posted By: LisaDeanna
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2004 at 2:03pm
quote:
Originally posted by bunker1
I agree with that logic .... 1 gas guzzling bus with 50 souls on board causes less congestion and less pollution than 15 gas guzzler cars with 3 persons each (45 persons) and 1 gas guzzler bus with 5 persons onboard. So I expect I will be seeing you all filling up those empty buses soon?????
Ok - I guess I can't speak for the area where you commute, but the buses along the Dulles Toll Road are full during rush hour. Even well into the evening they are well-used. I rode the 980 the other evening leaving WFChurch metro at 10:15pm and the bus had at least 10 people on it.
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Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2004 at 2:33pm
Bunker, you da MAN!
Fire up that bus, and pick me up!
I'm a-sluggin'! [;)]
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Posted By: ronin718
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2004 at 4:25pm
Part of the reason those buses on the toll road are full is because there is no slug line/system from the west like the one coming up from the south (I95). Since the area has only been "developing" in the last 10 years probably contributes to that, and it will take time for the system to build.
Another aspect is the lack of HOV support/enforcement. With only one HOV lane until you get to the beltway, there's little incentive for drivers to share. That one lane gets backed up almost as easily as the other three on the toll road, especially approaching the plaza.
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Posted By: motownldy199
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2004 at 9:23am
I, too, am a new hybrid driver, after living in the area for nearly twenty years--nearly 15 of them without a car. I've lived in VA for the last six years, and have take the bus, Metro, VRE, and yes, I've slugged to work. I believe in public transportation. But I think hybrids can be a solution to some of our problems.
I don't have my CF plates, but I'm going to apply for them, and yes, I'm going to use them. I'd love to pick up slugs--and used to--when I occasionally drove to my job downtown until my husband asked me, for safety's sake, not to.
But now I have a 27 mile, one way commute to Silver Spring. Guess what? For me to pick some one up and drop them off at the Pentagon or in DC would add more time, not less to my commute. And I went to commuter connections--no carpool options for me (plenty of people wanted rides, but there were no drivers and the hours were not a good fit). So what are people like me supposed to do?
Not everyone who is driving a hybrid on the HOV lanes is coming from Fredricksburg--a lot of us live closer in, like me, and need to get to work on time just as much as anyone else.
And for the people snickering and LisaDeanna, give me a break. None of us is too 'good' to take a bus. You all want to preserve the right to slug--and get a free ride--and I support that. But the hostility is not needed.
I agree that if the CF cars get to be too much of a problem that they should be restricted, but the hostility is just too much, folks.
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Posted By: motownldy199
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2004 at 3:59am
quote:
Originally posted by motownldy199
[br]I, too, am a new hybrid driver, after living in the area for nearly twenty years--nearly 15 of them without a car. I've lived in VA for the last six years, and have take the bus, Metro, VRE, and yes, I've slugged to work. I believe in public transportation. But I think hybrids can be a solution to some of our problems.
I don't have my CF plates, but I'm going to apply for them, and yes, I'm going to use them. I'd love to pick up slugs--and used to--when I occasionally drove to my job downtown until my husband asked me, for safety's sake, not to.
But now I have a 27 mile, one way commute to Silver Spring. Guess what? For me to pick some one up and drop them off at the Pentagon or in DC would add more time, not less to my commute. And I went to commuter connections--no carpool options for me (plenty of people wanted rides, but there were no drivers and the hours were not a good fit). So what are people like me supposed to do?
Not everyone who is driving a hybrid on the HOV lanes is coming from Fredricksburg--a lot of us live closer in, like me, and need to get to work on time just as much as anyone else.
And for the people snickering and LisaDeanna, give me a break. None of us is too 'good' to take a bus. You all want to preserve the right to slug--and get a free ride--and I support that. But the hostility is not needed.
I agree that if the CF cars get to be too much of a problem that they should be restricted, but the hostility is just too much, folks.
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Posted By: Max_28756
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2004 at 9:31am
I'm not sure where you live that it takes 2+ hrs to get to work, but I commute from Rt 17 and it takes 45 min max (15 min to get to the lot so an hour total). On the Hybrid issue, those who purchase a hybrid car are receiving a tax break from the IRS. This should be incentive enough. HOV-3 should mean just that, have 3 or more in your car. For motorcycle or Honda Insight drivers, 1 or 2 is fine. The bottom line is that there needs to be more information out there to encourage drivers to car pool / slug.
On a side note...bravo to the men in blue who are making it expensive to violate the HOV-3 rule!
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2004 at 11:18am
In regard to the hybrid article, I am glad it got published because this issue needs a lot more coverage. However, the tone of the article was generally pro hybrid, which doesn't surprise me. I believe the Post is also pro HOT. It did mention that the automakers are planning to swamp the US market with hybrids within a few years. It did not mention that some of us are trying to have the hybrid sport utes excluded before they come out this fall. The way this thing works, once something is allowed on, it MUST be legitimate... (NOT!)
Bob
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Posted By: motownldy199
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2004 at 11:21am
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Not all hybrid drivers get a tax break; for example, if you buy a used hybrid, you get no deduction at all. Anyway the tax arguement is a weak one, considering that many folks who get Metrochek get a pre-tax break, too. So perhaps sluggers who don't want to be bothered with facing hybrids clogging the HOV lanes should take Metro or VRE and recoup that tax break.
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Posted By: JimH
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2004 at 1:17pm
BTW, my quotes, I believe, reflect what most of you (us) feel.
"I have nothing against hybrids, but I think it's time to get them to pull their weight,"
"I've never seen a hybrid with three people in it."
Jim
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Posted By: LisaDeanna
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2004 at 3:05pm
quote:
Originally posted by motownldy199
And for the people snickering and LisaDeanna, give me a break. None of us is too 'good' to take a bus.
Who said anything about people being too good to take the bus?
On days when I can get by without having a car in the city the bus between Herndon and West Falls Church is the best option. The vast majority of my fellow riders are very courteous and I've never had a problem with a driver.
My only complaint would be that the buses are so crowded sometimes that I can't get a seat...
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Posted By: motownldy199
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2004 at 9:47pm
quote:
Originally posted by LisaDeanna
[br]quote:
Originally posted by motownldy199
And for the people snickering and LisaDeanna, give me a break. None of us is too 'good' to take a bus.
Who said anything about people being too good to take the bus?
On days when I can get by without having a car in the city the bus between Herndon and West Falls Church is the best option. The vast majority of my fellow riders are very courteous and I've never had a problem with a driver.
My only complaint would be that the buses are so crowded sometimes that I can't get a seat...
Lisa, I was actually defending you and couldn't edit my comment, it should have read "snickering at LisaDeanna."
I'm on the same side as you are.
BTW, Chris Core did a radio show on this subject--and a rather misinformed one--tonight. (For example, he didn't know anything about the CF plates) Most of his callers, most of them from Montgomery County, think that the hybrid inclusion was OK. He thinks it should be recinded, too.
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Posted By: vabigblue
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2004 at 7:42am
quote:
Originally posted by motownldy199
[br]Not all hybrid drivers get a tax break; for example, if you buy a used hybrid, you get no deduction at all. Anyway the tax arguement is a weak one, considering that many folks who get Metrochek get a pre-tax break, too. So perhaps sluggers who don't want to be bothered with facing hybrids clogging the HOV lanes should take Metro or VRE and recoup that tax break.
Is your hybrid used?
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Posted By: LisaDeanna
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2004 at 9:24am
quote:
Originally posted by motownldy199
Lisa, I was actually defending you and couldn't edit my comment, it should have read "snickering at LisaDeanna."
I'm on the same side as you are.
Gothcha. Thanks. [8D]
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Posted By: motownldy199
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2004 at 11:27am
quote:
Originally posted by vabigblue
[br]quote:
Originally posted by motownldy199
[br]Not all hybrid drivers get a tax break; for example, if you buy a used hybrid, you get no deduction at all. Anyway the tax arguement is a weak one, considering that many folks who get Metrochek get a pre-tax break, too. So perhaps sluggers who don't want to be bothered with facing hybrids clogging the HOV lanes should take Metro or VRE and recoup that tax break.
Is your hybrid used?
Yes it is. My husband didn't like the design of the '04 Prius and we didn't want to wait for one (the waits are now up to 8 months to a year long in some areas). So we bought an '02. We didn't mind about the tax deduction--we just needed a car for my commute ASAP.
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Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2004 at 4:13pm
What I love about this whole thread is that people keep using the argument that hybrids are cleaner so the HOV exemption makes sense. What people fail to realize is that the honda civic hybrid that gets the "SULEV" rating in California is a different car than the civic hybrid sold here. They have different emission systems and they are being run on different gas. Same goes for the Insight. Go read all the fine print on the honda website(http://www.hondacars.com/images/banners/2004/civic_hybrid/civic_hybrid_factsheet.pdf). The Honda hybrids around here are actually dirty compared to most new small and mid-size cars. The Prius sold here and in California is the exact same car, but the SULEV rating only applies when using gas that is only available in California.
The Prius is the cleanest of the hybrids, but there are regular cars that have the exact same emissions as the Prius. There are a ton of cars that have better emmissions than the Honda hybrids that are sold here.
If you are going to keep using the SULEV rated/cleaner emissions argument, you should first take a look at the list of all cars that are just as clean as the hybrids on this site:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/ccvl/2004sulevpzevlist.htm
Some of these cars are available here, some of them aren't like the cleaner version of the Honda hybrids.
So for all the people driving hybrids by themselves in the HOV that think they are cleaning up our air, sorry you aren't. The person driving a Ford Focus with two other people is the one that is really making a difference.
Here's a nice quote from www.driveclean.ca.gov
"Gasoline vehicles meeting PZEV emissions standards sometimes have even lower emissions than hybrid or alternative fuel vehicles."
I suppose we should let all these cars have the HOV exemption also? It makes as much sense as the hybrid exemption.
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Posted By: emancilla
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2004 at 7:13am
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Thank you for the info, wagonman. It is definetely interesting.
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Posted By: vabigblue
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2004 at 8:26am
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The hybrid is primarily used to access the HOV lanes. Most owners, as indicated, buy them just for that. Incentives to cause congestion. What a great system!
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Posted By: k2
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2004 at 12:59pm
quote:
Originally posted by vabigblue
[br]K2 - where are you slugging to and from. 2 to 2.5 hours each way???? You must be from Richmond! [?]
I live 30 miles from Richmond. 125 miles from DC. However, I have rented a room near DC so I can make the long trip just once or twice a week, in my hybrid. I think I am helping to reduce congestion a bit, by driving up 95 on Monday (or Tuesday) and back on Thursday.
I often wait until 8pm to drive home, so 395 and 95 are much faster at that time. Still, the drive is often 2.5 hours due to rubbernecking or other congestion.
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Posted By: emancilla
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2004 at 1:08pm
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I don't know how you can commute, even twice a week, from where you live. I live in Woodbridge, and I considered this area too far from DC.
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Posted By: motownldy199
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2004 at 1:11pm
quote:
Originally posted by vabigblue
[br]The hybrid is primarily used to access the HOV lanes. Most owners, as indicated, buy them just for that. Incentives to cause congestion. What a great system!
Then why did the state adopt the system in the first place? Obviously they didn't do it to legislate congestion.
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Posted By: LisaDeanna
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2004 at 1:26pm
Ok - so there are cars out there that have better emissions than some of the Hybrids. All the same, Hybrids' emissions are VERY low. Now lets talk gas milage. Hard to beat a hybrid on gas milage.
Face it: these cars are low emissions AND they get the best gas milage. And as Motown pointed out, those are two things that the legislature appears to value.
Fighting congestion is obviously important, but it seems like its the ONLY thing that some of the posters here care about. Don't you care about using less fuel? Or is that just a convenient by-product of slugging to get to work faster?
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Posted By: motownldy199
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2004 at 1:41pm
quote:
Originally posted by LisaDeanna
[br]Ok - so there are cars out there that have better emissions than some of the Hybrids. All the same, Hybrids' emissions are VERY low. Now lets talk gas milage. Hard to beat a hybrid on gas milage.
Face it: these cars are low emissions AND they get the best gas milage. And as Motown pointed out, those are two things that the legislature appears to value.
Fighting congestion is obviously important, but it seems like its the ONLY thing that some of the posters here care about. Don't you care about using less fuel? Or is that just a convenient by-product of slugging to get to work faster?
I think we all need to get real here. I kind of get insulted when I'm told that the only reason that I bought my prius was to ride the HOV-1. Yeah, that's why it's taken me so long to get off my duff and file for the CF plates. Some of us do care about the environment. And we can all fight congestion by taking the excellent public transporation in most of this area (VRE is super, BTW). While I think that slugging is great, and that fighting congestion is great, how many people are in this fight to come to an equitable solution to traffic in this area...and how many people are in it for the free rides?
C'mon. If we move to HOT lanes, are you all going to pile into the trains, commuter busses, etc....or are you going to drive? I'm dying to know.
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Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2004 at 1:49pm
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Can anyone post Virginia's official mission statement or purpose for HOV lanes? Is there one? I think we all need to see it. Just might clear things up a bit. [;)]
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Posted By: JiggaJynx
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2004 at 2:04pm
quote:
Originally posted by motownldy199
C'mon. If we move to HOT lanes, are you all going to pile into the trains, commuter busses, etc....or are you going to drive? I'm dying to know.
Assuming you're truly curious [8D], I will probably go back to riding the bus when the most successful slugging system in the country dies because cheap tolls turn the "fast" HOV lanes into a near parking lot like the "regular" lanes. At least I can read or sleep when my commute time doubles.
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Posted By: LisaDeanna
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2004 at 2:13pm
quote:
Originally posted by motownldy199
C'mon. If we move to HOT lanes, are you all going to pile into the trains, commuter busses, etc....or are you going to drive? I'm dying to know.
All I can say is the HOT lanes would really stink. Ugh. Nothing makes me cringe more than the idea of wealthier people being able to get to work faster simply because they can afford it. And lets face it, a LOT of people in this area will be able to afford it. Add to that the erosion of slugging and other good commuting options that would go along with it.
I wish I could go to the hearing tonight to express but I have to work late. [:(]
Anyone know if there is a website where a person can offer comments on the system? I'd love to add my 2 cents.
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Posted By: motownldy199
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2004 at 3:02pm
quote:
Originally posted by JiggaJynx
[br]quote:
Originally posted by motownldy199
C'mon. If we move to HOT lanes, are you all going to pile into the trains, commuter busses, etc....or are you going to drive? I'm dying to know.
Assuming you're truly curious [8D], I will probably go back to riding the bus when the most successful slugging system in the country dies because cheap tolls turn the "fast" HOV lanes into a near parking lot like the "regular" lanes. At least I can read or sleep when my commute time doubles.
I am truly curious. I think that HOT lanes stink, but as long as Virginians keep voting down tax increases for transportation, what the heck else is Richmond supposed to do? It leaves states and municipalities open to profitmaking sharks who have 'bright" ideas such as HOT lanes.
As for me, when the roads get too crowded I'll probably park and go Metro/VRE. Unfortunately, you'd think they'd come up with a suburb to suburb option for folks like me.
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Posted By: LisaDeanna
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2004 at 3:32pm
quote:
Originally posted by RoadRunner
[br]Essentially, hybrids are no different than HOT lanes. Hybrid owners bought their way onto the HOV lanes.
I SORTOF agree. Yes - ok they have bought a vehicle that they can use in HOV lanes. But they are taking a BIG step towards towards using less fuel than an average solo HOT driver would get.
Solo HOV driver in a mid-sized car. Imagine a 30 mile commute (each way) at 25 mpg. 2.4 Gal per day x 250 = 600 gal per year.
Solo HOV driver in an SUV. 30 mile commute at 15 mpg. 4 gal each day X 250 days per year = 1000 gal per year.
Solo HOV driver in a Hybrid same 30 mile commute. 50 mpg. 1.2 Gal per day x 250 days = 300 Gal/ year.
The THREE solo hybrids still would use less fuel per person than a single solo SUV.
Granted the single hybrid does nothing to ease congestion, but I think that its benefits on fuel consumption merit use of HOV.
And yes, even better if the Hybrid driver picks up some slugs.
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Posted By: LisaDeanna
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2004 at 3:46pm
quote:
Originally posted by RoadRunner
Also, since the Ginsberg article and other articles about slugging got published, I've noticed a lot of first timers on this board and I've noticed a lot more traffic in the HOV lanes. Coincidence, maybe?
I hope that's not meant to discourage new folks from posting here. I came to this site because it has great information about slugging and I wanted to see slugging start along the Dulles Toll Road. There are others here also interested in slugging on the Toll Road.
I've read this board for a while, but never posted much until the debate about hybrids started, b/c it interests me a lot. I've only recently started slugging (see other thread), but I've dealt with a nasty commute for some time and I definitely have some thoughts on the debate. What point is discussing it if everyone agrees on everything?
I admit that the discussion here has offered me a perspective on the hybrid HOV exception that I hadn't really considered before.
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Posted By: LisaDeanna
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2004 at 4:10pm
quote:
Originally posted by RoadRunner
[br]Your analogy is way off. You are comparing apples to oranges--one can't drive a mid-sized car or SUV solo in the HOV lanes--only law enforcement can do this [because they are above the law].
This analogy was in reference to the proposed HOT lanes. With the HOT lanes, as I understand it, you could pay to drive solo in any of these vehicles.
Anyway - all this discussion about Hybrids in the HOV lanes is likely going to moot in another 2 years. From what I've read, it sounds unlikely that the Hybrid exception will be extended past the July 06 expiration.
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Posted By: vabigblue
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2004 at 4:33pm
quote:
Originally posted by k2
[br]quote:
Originally posted by vabigblue
[br]K2 - where are you slugging to and from. 2 to 2.5 hours each way???? You must be from Richmond! [?]
I live 30 miles from Richmond. 125 miles from DC. However, I have rented a room near DC so I can make the long trip just once or twice a week, in my hybrid. I think I am helping to reduce congestion a bit, by driving up 95 on Monday (or Tuesday) and back on Thursday.
I often wait until 8pm to drive home, so 395 and 95 are much faster at that time. Still, the drive is often 2.5 hours due to rubbernecking or other congestion.
That must be real tough on you k2. I mean, we discuss hybrids and everybody has their opinion, but you are the one who really needs this exemption and probably many more. You are definitely a warrior.
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Posted By: vabigblue
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2004 at 4:34pm
quote:
Originally posted by motownldy199
[br]quote:
Originally posted by vabigblue
[br]The hybrid is primarily used to access the HOV lanes. Most owners, as indicated, buy them just for that. Incentives to cause congestion. What a great system!
Then why did the state adopt the system in the first place? Obviously they didn't do it to legislate congestion.
Believe me, I don't know why they adopted the system. It surely needs rethinking in my opinion, because it is causing congestion.
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Posted By: vabigblue
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2004 at 4:38pm
quote:
Originally posted by motownldy199
[br]quote:
Originally posted by LisaDeanna
[br]Ok - so there are cars out there that have better emissions than some of the Hybrids. All the same, Hybrids' emissions are VERY low. Now lets talk gas milage. Hard to beat a hybrid on gas milage.
Face it: these cars are low emissions AND they get the best gas milage. And as Motown pointed out, those are two things that the legislature appears to value.
Fighting congestion is obviously important, but it seems like its the ONLY thing that some of the posters here care about. Don't you care about using less fuel? Or is that just a convenient by-product of slugging to get to work faster?
I think we all need to get real here. I kind of get insulted when I'm told that the only reason that I bought my prius was to ride the HOV-1. Yeah, that's why it's taken me so long to get off my duff and file for the CF plates. Some of us do care about the environment. And we can all fight congestion by taking the excellent public transporation in most of this area (VRE is super, BTW). While I think that slugging is great, and that fighting congestion is great, how many people are in this fight to come to an equitable solution to traffic in this area...and how many people are in it for the free rides?
C'mon. If we move to HOT lanes, are you all going to pile into the trains, commuter busses, etc....or are you going to drive? I'm dying to know.
Come 'on, don't be insulted. It was your decision to buy the hybrid. You can't let an opinion get you down. The reason why it bothers me is the HOV-3 designation, which doesn't apply to hybrids. I don't think its fair. As far as HOT lanes, I'll still slug, cause that's what I am.
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Posted By: emancilla
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2004 at 4:54pm
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I don't like the train. Slugging is more efficient and faster. You miss your train and you'll be in trouble. Whereas if you slug and you're a little bit late, you'll always going to find riders.
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Posted By: motownldy199
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2004 at 5:58pm
quote:
Originally posted by emancilla
[br]I don't like the train. Slugging is more efficient and faster. You miss your train and you'll be in trouble. Whereas if you slug and you're a little bit late, you'll always going to find riders.
Slugging is faster than the VRE? When I took the VRE from Alexandria to Union Station, it took less than 20 minutes.
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Posted By: motownldy199
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2004 at 6:06pm
quote:
Originally posted by RoadRunner
[br]Essentially, hybrids are no different than HOT lanes. Hybrid owners bought their way onto the HOV lanes.
Look at it like this...
- buy a hybrid for say $20K in 2000 (let's keep it simple and not include gas, depreciation, or insurance)
- The exemption is good until 2006. That means over a 6-year span of owning a hybrid, the owner has paid $3,333 per year to use the HOV lanes.
- If you break this down by say 250 work days, it equates to about $13/day roundtrip which is what one might pay in tolls, parking, etc.
Keep in mind I'm trying to use simple logic here to the way I look at this situation. If you can better explain it, please do!
Also, since the Ginsberg article and other articles about slugging got published, I've noticed a lot of first timers on this board and I've noticed a lot more traffic in the HOV lanes. Coincidence, maybe?
Paranoia, maybe?[;)]
I've been lurking at this board for a long time, and as I mentioned before, I used to slug. And I don't have my CF's yet, so you can't blame me for the congestion. And perhaps that article will spur a hybrid driver or two to pick up a slug...you never know. [:D]
BTW I saw a hybrid driver with passengers today coming out of the HOV lanes near the Pentagon.
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Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2004 at 7:47pm
quote:
Originally posted by LisaDeanna
[br]Ok - so there are cars out there that have better emissions than some of the Hybrids. All the same, Hybrids' emissions are VERY low. Now lets talk gas milage. Hard to beat a hybrid on gas milage.
Face it: these cars are low emissions AND they get the best gas milage. And as Motown pointed out, those are two things that the legislature appears to value.
Fighting congestion is obviously important, but it seems like its the ONLY thing that some of the posters here care about. Don't you care about using less fuel? Or is that just a convenient by-product of slugging to get to work faster?
Face it: their emissions aren't lower than a crap load of cars on the road. A "6" on the EPA green vehicle guide is not very good. They aren't cleaner so why are they getting clean fuel plates? Their mileage is a little better, but not drastically. How about this, when they get three times the mileage as a common sedan(how about the Accord, 34 MPG highway) and are cleaner than all gasoline cars then they might deserve the exemption. Oh, another thing, lets not go by the EPA estimated mileage, let's use real numbers since we all know the EPA mileage numbers for the hybrids are overstated.
Your little argument about saving fuel is full of holes since those people slugging have just removed two fuel consuming cars from the road. Slugging saves more gas than a hybrid ever comes close to saving.
Here is another thing to consider, the 2004 diesel VW new beetle gets the same emissions score as the Honda Civic hybrid, a six. The mileage it gets is 46 highway and 38 city. Why not give it clean fuel plates?
What the Legislature thought they were doing is giving a break to a clean car, hence clean fuel plate. Not high mileage plates. Well, they were duped as were a lot of the hybrid owners that think their cars are so clean. The state failed to research how clean the cars really were just like they failed to research the federal laws they violated.
At the very least, people that are considering hybrids should really look at the Prius and not the Honda hybrids. Toyota didn't go the cheapskate route and remove the extra emissions equipment on cars sold outside of California to save a few $ like Honda did. The Honda hybrids would get an 8 on the EPA green list if they had this extra equipment. Or you can save yourself several thousand dollars and buy a regular gasoline car that has just as clean emissions as the Prius.
Cars CLEANER than Honda hybrids:
Ford Focus - as clean as Prius
Hyundai Elantra - as clean as Prius
Kia Spectra - as clean as Prius
Chevy Optra - as clean as Prius
Suzuki Forenza - as clean as Prius
Nissan Sentra
Acura RSX
Mazda 3
Honda Accord
VW Golf
VW Jetta
VW New Beetle
Toyota Camry
Toyota Solara
Acura TSX
Chrysler PT cruiser
Mitsubishi Galant
Nissan Altima
Volvo S40
Volvo S60
Honda CR-V
Honda Element
Volvo XC70
Volvo XC90
BMX X3
Saturn Vue
Chevy Tracker
Jeep Liberty
Cadillac SRX
Acura MDX
Lexus RX330
Land Rover Freelander
etc.
I could go on, but I think people get the point. In interest of full disclosure, not all engines in all the above cars are cleaner than the Honda hybrids. But surprisingly, there are V8s that are just as clean.
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Posted By: motownldy199
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2004 at 10:00pm
Well, I guess other municipalities are becoming misguided. San Jose is granting hybrid drivers free parking. And Sacramento, CA is considering letting hybrids use the carpool lanes.
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Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2004 at 10:20pm
quote:
Originally posted by motownldy199
[br]Well, I guess other municipalities are becoming misguided. San Jose is granting hybrid drivers free parking. And Sacramento, CA is considering letting hybrids use the carpool lanes.
If that's how San Jose wants to promote hybrid use, I see nothing wrong with it. They do get a marginally better mileage and are ideal for inner city stop and go use. As long as they don't pass it off as a clean fuel initiative, or if they do they better include the gasoline vehicles that are just as clean as the hybrids. Can you direct me to more info on this program?
The Sacramento carpool thing will never happen. The State of California is very aware of the Federal law about what can and can't get an HOV exemption. Their state legislation for HOV exemptions was written to meet federal law.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/faq.htm
There was talk of changing the Federal law, but I don't think there is enough support for that. Especially, since there is no emission benefit and lowering standards makes no sense.
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Posted By: JiggaJynx
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2004 at 9:19am
quote:
Originally posted by RoadRunner
Slugging is faster than VRE [and FREE] if you are coming from Woodbridge and points south to the Pentagon. It all depends on where you are going.
Agree. Going to Union Station on VRE is no time saver when the rest of the commute involves two Metro trains and a switch at Metro Center. Also, the last time I saw a VRE train go by near Lorton, it looked packed. Are there seats still available in Woodbridge?
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Posted By: vabigblue
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2004 at 12:13pm
quote:
Originally posted by RoadRunner
[br]If we can increase the number of sluggers (people who pick up slugs and people who ride with 2 others) in the HOV, not only do we decrease the amount of gas used, we provide a cleaner atmosphere, and get this, the HOV lanes will be at near full capacity. What does this do for HOT lanes? Essentially, it kills the concept because once the lanes reach capacity, they can't let anymore HOT vehicles on.
Let's all vote to slug. Our voices and actions will throw some cold water on the HOT lanes.
Agree wholeheartedly. I VOTE TO SLUG!
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Posted By: emancilla
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2004 at 12:45pm
Posted By: emancilla
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2004 at 12:46pm
Posted By: Stuck2
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2004 at 1:24pm
My mileage is a lot better than my other Civic. Went for a road trip this weekend 55 mi/gal. I don't think you can say anything over the Focus could get that. I fill up every other week (and my tank isn't completely angry).
Now, I do feel like I would like to pick up "riders." I have been a carpooler in the past. I think it's beneficial for hybrid riders to pick of slugs. Yes, I do feel guilty for only being two instead of three. And I have not recommended a hybrid to other sluggers I know. They are not the most convenient car to have -- oil changes cost 2x as much (synthetic oil); tires aren't as good in snow; maintenance more expensive. And they are more expensive than the average car.
I'd like to see a campaign to extend HOV until 6:30. I think Congress and Richmond are stupid not to consider this now that the only affordable housing is past Woodbridge and everyone seems to be moving further out from DC.
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Posted By: motownldy199
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2004 at 1:48pm
quote:
Originally posted by Stuck2
[br]My mileage is a lot better than my other Civic. Went for a road trip this weekend 55 mi/gal. I don't think you can say anything over the Focus could get that. I fill up every other week (and my tank isn't completely angry).
Now, I do feel like I would like to pick up "riders." I have been a carpooler in the past. I think it's beneficial for hybrid riders to pick of slugs. Yes, I do feel guilty for only being two instead of three. And I have not recommended a hybrid to other sluggers I know. They are not the most convenient car to have -- oil changes cost 2x as much (synthetic oil); tires aren't as good in snow; maintenance more expensive. And they are more expensive than the average car.
I'd like to see a campaign to extend HOV until 6:30. I think Congress and Richmond are stupid not to consider this now that the only affordable housing is past Woodbridge and everyone seems to be moving further out from DC.
You should have gotten a Toyota...our maintenance and oil changes under warranty is free. Our battery is waranteed for 80,000 miles.
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Posted By: motownldy199
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2004 at 1:50pm
quote:
Originally posted by Wagonman
[br]quote:
Originally posted by motownldy199
[br]Well, I guess other municipalities are becoming misguided. San Jose is granting hybrid drivers free parking. And Sacramento, CA is considering letting hybrids use the carpool lanes.
If that's how San Jose wants to promote hybrid use, I see nothing wrong with it. They do get a marginally better mileage and are ideal for inner city stop and go use. As long as they don't pass it off as a clean fuel initiative, or if they do they better include the gasoline vehicles that are just as clean as the hybrids. Can you direct me to more info on this program?
The Sacramento carpool thing will never happen. The State of California is very aware of the Federal law about what can and can't get an HOV exemption. Their state legislation for HOV exemptions was written to meet federal law.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/faq.htm
There was talk of changing the Federal law, but I don't think there is enough support for that. Especially, since there is no emission benefit and lowering standards makes no sense.
Have you heard about AB 2628?
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/bill/asm/ab_2601-2650/ab_2628_cfa_20040420_151547_asm_comm.html
SUMMARY
This bill allows the driver of an eligible hybrid vehicle that
meets California's "advanced technology partial zero-emission
vehicle" (AT PZEV) standard to use the high-occupancy vehicle
(HOV or carpool) lanes on highways and toll bridges, even though
minimum occupancy requirements for use of those lanes are not met. Specifically, this bill:
1)Requires the AT PZEV to also attain a 45 miles per gallon or
better fuel economy rating to qualify for HOV lane use.
there's more at the site...
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Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2004 at 2:14pm
quote:
Originally posted by motownldy199
[br]
Have you heard about AB 2628?
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/bill/asm/ab_2601-2650/ab_2628_cfa_20040420_151547_asm_comm.html
SUMMARY
This bill allows the driver of an eligible hybrid vehicle that
meets California's "advanced technology partial zero-emission
vehicle" (AT PZEV) standard to use the high-occupancy vehicle
(HOV or carpool) lanes on highways and toll bridges, even though
minimum occupancy requirements for use of those lanes are not met. Specifically, this bill:
1)Requires the AT PZEV to also attain a 45 miles per gallon or
better fuel economy rating to qualify for HOV lane use.
there's more at the site...
That bill makes more sense than Virginia's law, but it still violates federal law.
There is one big flaw in that bill. It restricts the exemption to "AT-PZEVs". AT-PZEVs and PZEVs are the same emission requirements, but AT-PZEVs require an alternative technology such as hybrid, or a different fuel. I think that the whole AT-PZEV is an un-needed classification. The bill should be written for all PZEVs that get 45 MPG. If a conventional gasoline car get the same emissions as the hybrid and can get 45MPG it deserves the exemption too. Granted, I don't think there are any gasoline cars that can meet this standard yet, but it would give the auto manufacturers something to aim for. It really is bad policy to give incentives to different technologies just because they are different technologies. The incentives should be given based on actual improvements.
Another thing is that once the EPA gets a test that measures the true mileage of the hybrids, some of the current ones probably won't meet that standard of 45MPG. Too bad it will probably take the EPA a decade to figure out more real-world test.
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Posted By: Stuck2
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2004 at 4:56pm
I think there's no solution to this Hybrid argument. Except that FOR NOW (whether you like it or not [}:)]) hybrids are allowed on HOV. It's in the future that they won't unless they comply with HOV-3.
Hybrid owners will continue to save on gas money but will eventually have to chose to pick up slugs or form formal carpools. So that's in the future and we will deal with that as the time comes.
There are other more pressing issues to be discussing -- like how to extend HOV times on 395 like I-66. How to end the free for all at Edsall. Probably can't touch Pentagon jump on -- will it end when the Mixing Bowl is finished?
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Posted By: JiggaJynx
Date Posted: 03 May 2004 at 7:55am
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What is "Pentagon jump on"? Just curious, since so many slug lines run out of the Pentagon lot.
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Posted By: USA
Date Posted: 03 May 2004 at 9:06am
quote:
Originally posted by Stuck2
There are other more pressing issues to be discussing -- like how to extend HOV times on 395 like I-66. How to end the free for all at Edsall. Probably can't touch Pentagon jump on -- will it end when the Mixing Bowl is finished?
The issue about Edsall Road is supposed to go away once the Springfield Interchange is done--the rationale for allowing all vehicles into the express lanes there is that the merge just south of the Beltway is so horrendous (and with the construction, it's even worse) that allowing through traffic to bypass that spot makes the congestion less horrible than it would otherwise be. When the construction is done, there will be no need for people to use the HOV lanes to bypass the merge because I-95 will have separate "through" and "local" lanes separated by barriers--i.e., if you want to exit in Springfield, you have to get in the "local" lanes before you get down there, because the "through" lanes won't have any exits in Springfield. (Going south on I-395, the "local" lanes will branch off about where the old exit towards Tysons branched off, and they'll run over the existing ramp from the Inner Loop to I-95 South.)
It's a little more complicated than that because there will really be multiple sets of "through" lanes, but you get the idea. Too bad VDOT is bound to screw up the signs (they always do!). The concept is great, but without good signs there will be scads of accidents when people don't know where they're going. They've already screwed up the signs on the Outer Loop--how is it that I-95 South is Exit 57A, and then the through lanes to stay on the Beltway are also Exit 57A (notice the sign located at the I-395 exit)?
I'm not sure what you mean by "Pentagon jump on" either--do you mean the way VDOT opened that ramp that's right under the US-1 exit so that all traffic can use the express lanes over the 14th Street Bridge? That has nothing to do with the Springfield Interchange. If I recall correctly, they opened that ramp because of some sort of construction on the 14th Street Bridge and then decided that they couldn't close it again.
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Posted By: tlschau
Date Posted: 03 May 2004 at 12:17pm
quote:
Originally posted by USA
[br]quote:
Originally posted by Stuck2
There are other more pressing issues to be discussing -- like how to extend HOV times on 395 like I-66. How to end the free for all at Edsall. Probably can't touch Pentagon jump on -- will it end when the Mixing Bowl is finished?
I'm not sure what you mean by "Pentagon jump on" either--do you mean the way VDOT opened that ramp that's right under the US-1 exit so that all traffic can use the express lanes over the 14th Street Bridge? That has nothing to do with the Springfield Interchange. If I recall correctly, they opened that ramp because of some sort of construction on the 14th Street Bridge and then decided that they couldn't close it again.
You are correct. The 14th Street Bridge was being repaired some years back, so the HOV lanes were opened to all to help alleviate traffic. Well, for some odd reason, the HOV restrictions were never reinstated. So now all lanes are open to all traffic. If you notice, however, the HOV signs over the entrance ramps onto the HOV lanes are still there, but they always read "Open to all traffic" or something to that effect.
It remains to be seen if this will also occur at Edsall Road[?]
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Posted By: emancilla
Date Posted: 03 May 2004 at 12:53pm
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Didn't anybody complain at the time to reinstate the HOV restrictions n the 14th Street Bridge once the repairs were done?
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Posted By: USA
Date Posted: 03 May 2004 at 12:57pm
quote:
Originally posted by tlschau
It remains to be seen if this will also occur at Edsall Road[?]
The key difference between Springfield and the 14th Street Bridge is that in Springfield, the non-HOV lanes will have added capacity once the construction is done. The highway will be 24 lanes at its widest point. The 14th Street Bridge never got any extra lanes. I don't go HOV in the morning and I'm torn on what I think of that ramp. On the one hand, the backup for the bridge would go a lot farther back if it weren't open, but on the other hand, closing the ramp would eliminate the kamikaze lane-changers who get on the highway from Washington Boulevard and then immediately cut across all lanes of traffic to get onto that ramp. (Or, if traffic is stopped, which it usually is, they just slow things down even more by trying to force their way across.)
You have a valid point, though; guess we won't know until 2007 or 2008.
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Posted By: emancilla
Date Posted: 03 May 2004 at 2:16pm
However, I remember not long time ago the 14th Street Bridge had 3 lanes before they started the renovation to the bridge. I also remember that there was little congestion on the bridge. This was probably 3 and a half years ago or so.
I don't know how the bridge was set up before that because I used to live in Arlington.
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Posted By: vabigblue
Date Posted: 04 May 2004 at 1:35pm
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tlschau, how many years ago was that? I seem to remember that stretch being open to all vehicles all the time. I remember the maintenance they had on the bridge, that was about 4-5 years ago, but again, I thought HOV traffic always ended at the Pentagon coming northbound. Thanks
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 04 May 2004 at 1:51pm
Rescue Workers Say Hybrid Cars a Danger
.. For rescuers at accident scenes, they represent a potential new danger: a network of high-voltage circuitry that may require some precise cutting to save a trapped victim.
"You don't want to go crushing anything with hydraulic tools," said Samuel Caroluzzi, an assistant chief with the Norristown Fire Department outside Philadelphia. "It's enough to kill you from what they're telling us in training."
Hybrids draw power from two sources, typically a gas or diesel engine combined with an electric motor. The battery powering the electric motor carries as much as 500 volts, more than 40 times the strength of a standard battery.
That worries those who must cut into cars to rescue people inside.
"If you can't shut it down, you don't know where the high voltage is," said David Dalrymple, an emergency medical technician in New Brunswick, N.J.
http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0504/144325.html
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Posted By: vabigblue
Date Posted: 04 May 2004 at 2:48pm
quote:
Originally posted by Bob
[br]Rescue Workers Say Hybrid Cars a Danger
.. For rescuers at accident scenes, they represent a potential new danger: a network of high-voltage circuitry that may require some precise cutting to save a trapped victim.
"You don't want to go crushing anything with hydraulic tools," said Samuel Caroluzzi, an assistant chief with the Norristown Fire Department outside Philadelphia. "It's enough to kill you from what they're telling us in training."
Hybrids draw power from two sources, typically a gas or diesel engine combined with an electric motor. The battery powering the electric motor carries as much as 500 volts, more than 40 times the strength of a standard battery.
That worries those who must cut into cars to rescue people inside.
"If you can't shut it down, you don't know where the high voltage is," said David Dalrymple, an emergency medical technician in New Brunswick, N.J.
http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0504/144325.html
Very interesting. Since this has surfaced, engineers are working on a different approach as we speak.
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Posted By: emancilla
Date Posted: 04 May 2004 at 4:15pm
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I hope so. It sounds a very dangerous situation for rescue workers.
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Posted By: motownldy199
Date Posted: 04 May 2004 at 5:43pm
quote:
Originally posted by emancilla
[br]I hope so. It sounds a very dangerous situation for rescue workers.
Dangerous yes, but the article fails to state that this issue has been on the table since hybrids were introduced, and Toyota came forward with a Emergency response guide (link below).
Also, there is danger when cutting into any car these days--first responders have had to learn about dealing with cars with side air-bags, for instance, another complicating factor when slicing through the pillars. Emergency responders have to be trained, as is with anything else. And many of them have been trained, since Toyota came out with emergency response guides for the older model Prii.
This is an old story. Makes you wonder which one of the big 3 pushed it getting published.[:p]
Link to emergency response guide (2004): http//techinfo.toyota.com/public/main/2ndprius.pdf
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Posted By: motownldy199
Date Posted: 04 May 2004 at 5:56pm
quote:
Originally posted by motownldy199
[br]quote:
Originally posted by emancilla
[br]I hope so. It sounds a very dangerous situation for rescue workers.
Dangerous yes, but the article fails to state that this issue has been on the table since hybrids were introduced, and Toyota came forward with a Emergency response guide (link below).
Also, there is danger when cutting into any car these days--first responders have had to learn about dealing with cars with side air-bags, for instance, another complicating factor when slicing through the pillars. Emergency responders have to be trained, as is with anything else. And many of them have been trained, since Toyota came out with emergency response guides for the older model Prii.
This is an old story. Makes you wonder which one of the big 3 pushed it getting published.[:p]
Link to emergency response guide (2004): http//techinfo.toyota.com/public/main/2ndprius.pdf
And here's another article from the Firehouse.com's University of Extrication (note the date--2001) http://www.firehouse.com/extrication/archives/2001/august01.html
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Posted By: motownldy199
Date Posted: 04 May 2004 at 6:00pm
quote:
Originally posted by motownldy199
[br]quote:
Originally posted by emancilla
[br]I hope so. It sounds a very dangerous situation for rescue workers.
Dangerous yes, but the article fails to state that this issue has been on the table since hybrids were introduced, and Toyota came forward with a Emergency response guide (link below).
Also, there is danger when cutting into any car these days--first responders have had to learn about dealing with cars with side air-bags, for instance, another complicating factor when slicing through the pillars. Emergency responders have to be trained, as is with anything else. And many of them have been trained, since Toyota came out with emergency response guides for the older model Prii.
This is an old story. Makes you wonder which one of the big 3 pushed it getting published.[:p]
Link to emergency response guide (2004): http//techinfo.toyota.com/public/main/2ndprius.pdf
And here's another article from the Firehouse.com's University of Extrication (note the date--2001) http://www.firehouse.com/extrication/archives/2001/august01.html
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Posted By: tlschau
Date Posted: 05 May 2004 at 11:33am
quote:
Originally posted by vabigblue
[br]tlschau, how many years ago was that? I seem to remember that stretch being open to all vehicles all the time. I remember the maintenance they had on the bridge, that was about 4-5 years ago, but again, I thought HOV traffic always ended at the Pentagon coming northbound. Thanks
vabigblue, it was at least a dozen or so years ago, maybe more. Prior to that, HOV restrictions went all the way across the bridge.
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Posted By: sassbag
Date Posted: 05 May 2004 at 6:49pm
I feel that we need to make a decision for the reason for the HOV. Is it to lower emmissions? Or is it to lessen cars--both are good reasons. I personaly do not have a problem with the hybrids.
God So loved you he gave us His Son, for those of us who believe will have everlasting life.
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Posted By: dixeedog
Date Posted: 06 May 2004 at 10:46am
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USA Today Article yesterday said that Chevy will have 1/3 of its domestic car production by 2007 classified as Gas/Electric. That's every car/SUV/and Truck. More Hybribs than you can shake a stick at. Hybribs will kill the HOV Lanes in the next 5 years.
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Posted By: glacier
Date Posted: 06 May 2004 at 10:54am
The HOV lanes are expressly for the purpose of encouraging people to mass commute. Along come hybrids and someone had a good idea - the HOV lanes have some exces capacity, lets give people an incentive to buy hybrids.
However, as Dixie notes: in a year or two you won't be able to swing a dead cat without hitting a hybrid. And the effect? Death to HOV lanes, which will kill any incentive for anyone.
Cure? Cease the incentives after next year, they have already accomplished there goal. People are well aware of hybrids and their advantages: great gas mileage and eco-friendly.
Cheers,
Glacier
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Posted By: JimH
Date Posted: 06 May 2004 at 11:22am
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Now all we have to do is convince our state senators and reps...
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Posted By: Max_28756
Date Posted: 06 May 2004 at 2:43pm
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Convincing our state Senators and Representatives should be easy. To them, it's all about the vote. We Slugs out number hybrid drivers. If enough of us let it be known that we are voters and will vote for those who back the HOV lanes being for HIGH OCCUPANCY VEHICLES (imagine that), then they may finally do the right thing and drop the exemption. With the high price of gas, there is plenty of incentive for all of us to buy hybrid vehicles AND still remain HOV eligible with 3 in a vehicle.
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