Hybrids: the Catalyst for Positive Change
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Category: Archived Slugging Topics
Forum Name: Hybrids
Forum Description: This area is devoted to the discussion of hybrid vehicles and their impact to the HOV.
URL: http://www.slug-lines.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=966
Printed Date: 25 Apr 2024 at 3:57pm
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Topic: Hybrids: the Catalyst for Positive Change
Posted By: cedarcitynative
Subject: Hybrids: the Catalyst for Positive Change
Date Posted: 12 May 2004 at 4:25pm
I am the proud owner of a 2005 Toyota Prius. I have since changed my views on hybrids since first posting this topic almost two years ago. My Prius gets 45-50 mpg on the I-95. Owning it has revolutionized my life and way of thinking. I will never own an all-gasoline car again.
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Issue Alert from Winningreen A051204
Hybrid-electric cars get less mileage than EPA estimates
By Gretchen Randall
Date: May 12, 2004
Issue: With crude oil topping $40 per barrel and gasoline prices at or near $2.00 per gallon in many parts of the country (nearly $3.00 in California), motorists may be tempted to consider buying a hybrid gasoline-electric car. But before you buy a hybrid vehicle, be aware that the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) estimated fuel mileage for these cars is rarely seen in actual practice.
According to Wired News, EPA tests for city and highway mileage are based on estimates derived from actual vehicle emissions tests. EPA states. "The tests measure the waste substances emitted from consuming the fuel, not the actual fuel consumed. From the measurement of emissions, EPA can estimate the miles per gallon achieved by the vehicle on average."
Owners should expect to get only 60-75% of the estimated mileage according to Consumer Reports. In Consumer Reports’ tests, the Honda Civic, instead of getting the estimated 47 mpg in city driving, averaged only 26 mpg. Instead of 60 mpg as EPA estimated for city driving, the Toyota Prius averaged only 35 mpg. (Wired.com)
Since hybrid cars cost several thousand dollars more than conventional cars the same size, even with $2 per gallon gasoline, it would take a long time to pay the difference even considering the $1500 tax deduction for buying a hybrid car.
Comment 1: EPA needs to do real-world tests to make their ratings more accurate, especially for hybrid vehicles.
Comment 2: There are many types of clean fuel technologies in the development stages including a clean diesel fuel, which need some funding and testing to bring them to market.
Comment 3: EPA refuses to test bio-lubricating oil which could dramatically increase mileage while reducing pollution. Congress should direct EPA to search for such real-world solutions to environmental problems.
Links: Read more about hybrid cars at: http://autos.msn.com/
Also, read "Hybrid Mileage Comes Up Short " by John Gartner at http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,63413,00.html
Contact: Gretchen Randall
Winningreen LLC
3712 N. Broadway – PMB 279
Chicago, IL 60613
Phone: 773-857-5086
e-mail: grandall@winningreen.com
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Replies:
Posted By: tdar20
Date Posted: 12 May 2004 at 5:29pm
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Once again misguided reporting. I have a buddy with a Hybrid and his city driving is well over 40 mpg. You can twist the hybrid issue any way you want. They are here to stay and will only become more and more available to the public in many different forms. The HOV issue aside..... thats one for the lawmakers to settle and I agree they really dont qualify for the exemption........the hybrid technology is a good step in the right direction. Both the military and the commercial community are exploring the technology and developing vehicles that rely on hybrid technology.
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Posted By: denden891
Date Posted: 13 May 2004 at 8:46am
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I don't know about the Civic, but my 04 Prius is getting better mileage in city then the epa est (65+ vs. 60) and I am getting right at the estimate of 51 highway. 650+ miles to a 12 gallon tank is pretty good in my book. [:)
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Posted By: motownldy199
Date Posted: 14 May 2004 at 2:32pm
quote:
Originally posted by denden891
[br]I don't know about the Civic, but my 04 Prius is getting better mileage in city then the epa est (65+ vs. 60) and I am getting right at the estimate of 51 highway. 650+ miles to a 12 gallon tank is pretty good in my book. [:)
My '02 Prius just yielded a 580 mile tank as well. And folks need to recognize that the EPA MPG estmates are just that--ESTIMATES. Remember, Your Mileage May Vary.
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Posted By: bowflexguy
Date Posted: 15 May 2004 at 8:54pm
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My Prius is getting 54 mpg on an 85 mile rt per day. Not bad, huh? I don't like the fact that gas is going up but my wallet isn't getting to skinny with my Prius.
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Posted By: jjmahoney
Date Posted: 17 May 2004 at 12:54pm
I've wanted a hybrid for quite some time. These MPG testimonials make me even more eager to get my hands on one.
_________________
"The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." I Corinthians 1:18
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Posted By: qorc
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2005 at 7:10am
no, they don't get the EPA numbers, but I regularly get an average of 48 mpg with mixed city and highway driving. I've been as high as 51 mpg on a tank, and as low as 39 (almost all city driving).
So what's your point?
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Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2005 at 9:03pm
quote:
Originally posted by tdar20
[br]They are here to stay and will only become more and more available to the public in many different forms. The HOV issue aside..... thats one for the lawmakers to settle and I agree they really dont qualify for the exemption........the hybrid technology is a good step in the right direction. Both the military and the commercial community are exploring the technology and developing vehicles that rely on hybrid technology.
Hybrids are here to stay. But I don't know if they are going to be a real viable option for passenger cars. They cost too much more for the increased mileage. In large applications like buses they make much more sense. The vehicles operate on a more continual basis making recovering the extra cost possible. Plus, buses are a stop and go vehicle. Hybrids are perfect for that driving. American driving habits and the maintenance requirements of a vehicle with two powertrains are going to make hybrids a hard sell for the majority of americans. They will remain a niche vehicle. But this is just my opinion.
BTW: This is a really old news story.
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2005 at 11:46am
I'd like the hype-bird owners to factor in the increased cost of buying the car into their fuel economy equation. How much more are you paying per month including gas and car payments?
Intellichoice.com says it's 3-4 thousand dollars more over 5 years to own a civic hybrid over a civic DX or LX.
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2005 at 2:12pm
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Oh, and that assumes they are paying retail, not marked up price.
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Posted By: qorc
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2005 at 9:23am
I needed a new vehicle. my hybrid cost FAR less than our mini-van and virtually EVERY SUV out there. I paid $24,000 for it, got $14,000 for the truck, so basically I financed $10,000 on a home equity loan at 3.5% and get to deduct the interest.
and I'm getting 4 times the mileage I did with my truck.
so how is it a farce?
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Posted By: k2
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2005 at 9:51pm
Does anyone want some actual MPG data on a hybrid?
In my 2004 Prius, I get 47-52 MPG on my 100-mile commute, moving at typical I-95 speeds.
At 72-75 MPH, my Prius gets 44-50 MPH, depending on the wind and air temperature. Higher mileage occurs in warm (70 degree F) weather. In the city, on short 1-2 mile trips, mileage can drop down to 35-40. On rural roads, at 35-55 MPH, I get 50-60 MPG.
My car-lifetime mileage after 29,000 miles is over 47 MPG, with 90% high-speed highway driving.
I think the Prius (2004+) is a great car. The HOV excemption is a nice bonus.
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Posted By: qorc
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2005 at 8:20am
not true. Actually picking up slugs adds weight and would reduce MPG, let alone add 20 minutes to my commute.
Motto: "not until July 2006 or I have to"
[:D]
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2005 at 2:39pm
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That would be MPGPP, or miles per gallon per passenger.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2005 at 7:51am
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I, for one, am eagerly anticipating the end of the hybrid exemption since that will hasten the toll. Those in the HOV lanes need to look to their right to see the cars in the regular lanes moving at 15 mph compared to the HOV lanes at (or above) speed. Hybrids out of HOV is 100% guaranteed to increase regular lane congestion. With HOV zipping along even faster, the balance will have to come from another means - TOLL! I'd pay to move faster...
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2005 at 8:13am
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I for one am glad that the hybrid exemption is ending because I can think of you sitting in the regular lanes in your hybrid for the next 10 years until the HOT is built.
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Posted By: qorc
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2005 at 8:33am
nah, won't happen. When the exemption ends, I become a driver or start slugging again. It's no big deal. I bought the car knowing the exemption would end probably no later than July 2006. So what? Until then, I'm getting 4x the gas mileage (and every time gas goes up, I laugh at you SUV-types) and a fast commute to work.
I'm not sweating it. I slugged for 2 years. I can do it again.
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2005 at 9:48am
Hey Bob, sorry, but it won't take ten years. Look at Fluor's proposal: it calls for the I95 toll booths to be built first and, of course, on the stretch with the most traffic between the beltway and the 14th St. Bridge. They plan to have them up and running next summer if they receive the go-ahead this November.
This means they will be charging a toll WITHOUT doing anything, anything at all, to improve traffic. Except force us all to get Smarttags.
Judging from today's Post article, that approval is pro forma.
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2005 at 10:32am
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Yep, but I believe I recall that to extend it down south and other points, it would take quite a few years. I understand that we PWC folks would be in bad shape almost at once.
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Posted By: k2
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2005 at 7:52pm
quote:
Originally posted by RoadRunner
[br]k2: you would get even better gas mileage if you picked up 2 slugs.
I know, I should pick up slugs and ride along as a slug, to put fewer miles on my car, therefore increasing my gas mileage, in a way. I have picked up slugs while in my Prius, but it is a rare event. When I picked up slugs, my commute was 2h35m up to 3h30m. I live 125 miles from work, which is definately a dumb life decision, but I will eventually move closer to work or work closer to home. By taking HOV, I can get to work in 1h55m to 2h30m, saving 30-60 minutes each way. My family appreciates that.
I do actually help reduce traffic on I-95. I stay in Arlington 2 nights a week (Mon and Wed) so I make only 2 round trips all week, and I try to catch the last bit of HOV time in the morning (8:30-9:00am) when traffic is lightest. Right at 8:55 every morning, the cheaters hop on HOV and clog it up in a flash. Even hybrid drivers are offended by that. ;)
Ignoring the fact that I am a hybrid driver, I do have some news that will cheer us all up:
I was in a store today near Richmond and I heard a man complain that he got pulled over last week and ticketed from driving HOV alone! He was upset, AND he got another ticket for not wearing his seatbelt! I told him not to mess with VA state troopers. They don't cut anyone any slack.
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Posted By: bolo5757
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2005 at 9:53am
yeah I was real upset with my Prius' gas mileage. I was only getting 40 mpg until I realized one of my tires was low on air. Now I'm sucking down the gas to the tune of 49 mpg, on the highway with the cruise control set at around 75 or 80 with a total of 3 people in the car with gym gear. Yup sure does suck to be with the horrid gas mileage I'm getting....HMMMMM maybe if I ditched those 2 other people I'd get 55 mpg.....NAHHHH
oh and BTW the honda is NOT a true hybrid....it will NOT move without the engine being on so stop compairing the Prius and the honda like it's the same thing.
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2005 at 2:57pm
quote:
Originally posted by bolo5757
[br]
oh and BTW the honda is NOT a true hybrid....it will NOT move without the engine being on so stop compairing the Prius and the honda like it's the same thing.
I've re-read this several times and I have a simple question..
What in the world are you talking about?
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
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Posted By: qorc
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2005 at 7:17am
of course the point the OP is not telling you is that NO vehicles in reality get the Federal mileage ratings - it's a point of contention with the auto industry, who likes these inflated numbers - tests done on flat treadmill-like devices, nothing else on - which of course raises the overall numbers.
it's not JUST the hybrids, but every car out there.
All I know is this - I get 50-51 MPG to work and back and about 38 in my runs around town, sometimes better depending on how much stop and go I do. Overall, I average 46 mpg on a tank, sometimes better, because I do more highway than city.
For a car that I paid $11,400 for and got a $2,000 tax credit for last year, and reduced my weekl gas consumption from $110-$120 to $20, I think it's been pretty worthwhile for me.
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Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2005 at 2:34pm
quote:
Originally posted by qorc
[br]
For a car that I paid $11,400 for and got a $2,000 tax credit for last year, and reduced my weekl gas consumption from $110-$120 to $20, I think it's been pretty worthwhile for me.
Did you buy your car used? I'm assuming you did for that low of a price. The federal tax credit is only for new vehicles. Is that the credit you took?
Edit: Nevermind, I saw your other post about trading in your truck so you really didn't pay $11,400 for it.
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Posted By: Sportbike Cowboy
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2005 at 2:31pm
Just happened to pop into this discussion, here's proof for the naysayers:
http://www.sportbikecowboy.com/images/DSC02369.JPG
http://www.sportbikecowboy.com/images/DSC02334.JPG
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Posted By: Sportbike Cowboy
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2005 at 2:45pm
quote:
Originally posted by cedarcitynative
[br]U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) estimated fuel mileage for these cars is rarely seen in actual practice.
See my prior post... lol [:D]
quote:
Instead of 60 mpg as EPA estimated for city driving, the Toyota Prius averaged only 35 mpg. (Wired.com)
this is flat out WRONG. The test drivers for Wired.com must be smoking drugs.
quote:
Since hybrid cars cost several thousand dollars more than conventional cars the same size, even with $2 per gallon gasoline, it would take a long time to pay the difference even considering the $1500 tax deduction for buying a hybrid car.
They're making A LOT of assumptions there. First of all, the Prius is a mid-sized vehicle, secondly, I realized this, and bought mine one year used with 12K on the clock for 21.. Various, equivalent Camry models (the closest mid-sized for comparison) start around 18 and run well into the mid 20's. Finally, it was assumed gas WAS $2 a gallon, we all know it's closer to $3 now.
quote:
Comment 1: EPA needs to do real-world tests to make their ratings more accurate, especially for hybrid vehicles.
Comment: the authors of this report need to actually drive one themselves!
quote:
Contact: Gretchen Randall
Winningreen LLC
3712 N. Broadway – PMB 279
Chicago, IL 60613
Phone: 773-857-5086
e-mail: grandall@winningreen.com
[:o)]
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Posted By: JKnight
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2005 at 4:04pm
quote:
The latest reports on hybrids shows they actually get poorer gas mileage than their all-gasoline counterparts. (...) All folks are doing is driving an expensive gimmicky car that is actually dumping more pollutants into the air.
Dodging the question about whether they should be allowed in the HOV lane or not...these statements are just plain wrong.
Hybrids get better gas mileage than COMPARABLE gasoline cars. Sure, you can find cars with similar gas mileage, but they're smaller, lighter, and much less powerful than a hybrid, and they are not low polluters.
In my 2002 "classic" (i.e. "old tech") Prius, I regularly get between 36 and 51 mpg depending on how I drive, where I drive, how long the trip is, and other factors. The new Priuses get 50-60 mpg easily. How Consumer's Union managed to drive a new Prius and get such lousy mileage, I have no idea. You'd have to be towing a boat, IMO.
Secondly, Priuses (not all hybrids) are Super Ultra Low Emissions Vehicles (as defined by the California DoT). Because they use a combination of electric and gasoline power, using each engine by itself or in combination depending on need, they pollute far, far less than a conventional gas engine alone. They pollute so little, in fact, that the California DoT has granted them an exemption from bi-annual smog testing until 2010 because the current equipment can't measure such low emissions.
As for "gimmicky": the basic technology of the brushless electric motor (which is virtually maintenance free) was invented by Nikola Tesla in 1888. Locomotives have used hybrid technology (using a diesel engine to power electric motors that move the train) since 1928. Today's hybrids are a high-tech refinement of old, proven technology, not a "gimmick."
Jan
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2005 at 10:09am
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JKnight, Get off the emmissions soap box! Let's talk in five years when you have to replace (and dispose of) your batteries. Hybrids are a landfill crisis waiting to happen! Talk about adverse impact to the environment!
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Posted By: maytrix
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2005 at 11:20am
quote:
Originally posted by raymond
[br]JKnight, Get off the emmissions soap box! Let's talk in five years when you have to replace (and dispose of) your batteries. Hybrids are a landfill crisis waiting to happen! Talk about adverse impact to the environment!
The batteries are recyclable, so this is a non-issue. Not a single battery will end up in a landfill.
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Posted By: maytrix
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2005 at 11:26am
quote:
Originally posted by MDC
[br]I'd like the hype-bird owners to factor in the increased cost of buying the car into their fuel economy equation. How much more are you paying per month including gas and car payments?
Intellichoice.com says it's 3-4 thousand dollars more over 5 years to own a civic hybrid over a civic DX or LX.
I factored it in. I got a fully loaded model (leather and NAV) for just under $30k. I previously drove a Jeep and had I replaced my Jeep with a new on, with the same luxuries, I would have probably paid close to $40k.
Now, factor in that I went from 16mpg to 50mpg AND I drive 30k miles a year and my savings is over $3k per year.
I admit, my situation is a bit different from most, but there's one thing everyone who puts down hybrids forgets. Since when does ANYONE buy a car to save money? Cars rarely save anyone money, why make that an argument with a Hybrid? It's a choice and while it may have an upfront cost greater than it's gas counter part, it often has a few more extras as well. In addition, it WILL save you on gas and help reduce pollution.
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Posted By: JKnight
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2005 at 12:51pm
The batteries are warranted for 10 years/150,000 miles, and as Maytrix says, they are recyclable. Toyota is ready to begin recycling but are still waiting for the batteries to start failing. A taxi cab owner in Vancouver is running a small fleet of Priuses and put over 200,000 miles on a Prius without having a battery failure. The batteries are also modular with each cell being replaceable for about $20.
I really don't get the anti-hybrid sentiment (except for the anti-hybrid-in-the-HOV-lane sentiment, which I understand perfectly). Everybody buys gas and breathes air. You'd think they'd appreciate that some people are willing to spend extra money to save fuel (more for them at less cost) and pollute less.
It is interesting to follow the media and see that, as late as Dec. 2004, articles were spouting the conventional wisdom that "at today's gas prices" it would take a hybrid ten years to pay for itself. Now the figure that's bandied about is five years.
I kept my previous car for fourteen years, and the one before that for twelve. A five-year payback is fine with me!
More importantly, though, gas mileage and low emissions are values to me like heated seats and built-in DVD player are to other people. When will heated seats pay for themselves? The Prius is a fun car to drive and meets my needs very well (except when I need my SUV to haul dogs) and that's all I need to know.
Jan
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Posted By: maytrix
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2005 at 6:09pm
quote:
Originally posted by JKnight
[br]It is interesting to follow the media and see that, as late as Dec. 2004, articles were spouting the conventional wisdom that "at today's gas prices" it would take a hybrid ten years to pay for itself. Now the figure that's bandied about is five years.
Great point - And why is it that a hybrid needs to pay for itself? Does that Excursion pay for itself??
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2005 at 10:04am
Maytrix, because value is a selling point used to promote hybrids, they cost more than comparably equipt small cars. No one buys an Excursion expecting to get a good value, its an ego feeder.
BTW, JKnight, I am not opposed to hybrids, I simply think they are an unnecesary distraction from the real issues. I am not opposed to hybrid drivers because I think their hearts are in the right place. Nor am I opposed to hybrids in the HOV lanes. But I AM opposed to hybrids with ONE passenger in the HOVs.
I am opposed the HOV exemption. I am opposed to any law that says: "Buy this and you will get special treatment from law enforcement officials." Anytime preferrential treatment can be bought, discrimination is present.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2005 at 10:35pm
quote:
Originally posted by raymond
[br]Maytrix, because value is a selling point used to promote hybrids, they cost more than comparably equipt small cars. No one buys an Excursion expecting to get a good value, its an ego feeder.
BTW, JKnight, I am not opposed to hybrids, I simply think they are an unnecesary distraction from the real issues. I am not opposed to hybrid drivers because I think their hearts are in the right place. Nor am I opposed to hybrids in the HOV lanes. But I AM opposed to hybrids with ONE passenger in the HOVs.
I am opposed the HOV exemption. I am opposed to any law that says: "Buy this and you will get special treatment from law enforcement officials." Anytime preferrential treatment can be bought, discrimination is present.
Ah, but have you noticed that the concentration of hybrids is greater in the DC region than anywhere else in the world? Why do you suppose that is? Was it a taxpayer funded incentive?
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2005 at 1:16pm
Keep your eye on the ball NoSUV. Hybrids are more prevalent in DC because of the exemption, its no coincidence. Taxpayer funded? The only taxpayers who are funding an HOV exemption are hybrid drivers who fund hybrid auto manufacturers, that's you! Follow the money: >you buy hybrid, >hybrid auto manufacturer lobbist pushes for exemption, >politician passes exemption, >you buy more hybrid. Its a big circle that begins and ends wtih your money! "The wheels on your hybrid go round and round..." and everyone gets a share of your money. Wait, you didn't actually think someone was looking out for you, did you?!
Hybrids are a distraction, a scam, a boondoggle, another product to sell you until they get the unit price of fuel up high enough to guarantee profits of the next fuel. When that happens they will be selling us bio diesels, or ethanol, or some other kind powered cars. I guarantee you that in ten or twenty years no one will own hybrids. You are driving the 8-track of 2020!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2005 at 10:43pm
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So, if given a choice of incentives to buy expensive technology that lowers consumption of gas while reducing emmissions, do you prefer financial from the government (taxpayer) or non financial (such as exemptions)? How about for other programs besides hybrids?
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2005 at 5:36am
Ah NoSUV,
Exemptions DO cost money. When the HOV becomes congested, there is a cost in time/gas/emissions to be paid by everyone on the HOV. When that cost is incurred by HOV compliant vehicles at the expense of SOV vehicles (hybrid or otherwise), then that creates the imbalance (real and perceived) to which most are looking as being "wrong".
Hybrid gas/elec vehicles run primarily on batteries in stop & go traffic. If a hybrid vehicle is SOV, it should be in the stop & go traffic of the mainlines where emissions are reduced (for it at least) and the SOV doesn't impinge on the freeflow of traffic in the HOV thereby making the HOV concept more attractive and the incentive to alter commuting habits is retained.
That seems reasonable to many people, probably a majority. If a vehicle is HOV with the requisite numbers, then it should be able to travel in free flowing HOV lanes (regardless of the original concept for the reversible lanes), don't you think?
By creating one incentive (hybrid exemption) at the expense of another (HOV expedient lanes), this creates an imbalance to a commuting system that works rather well--as long as we can keep the big financial interests out of it to the largest extent possible.
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2005 at 10:36pm
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NoSB: Actually, the majority probably prefer lower gas prices. News reports are touting that lowered demand is helping to drive our gas prices lower. Because hybrid technology is expensive, the only way to make it cost effective for the individual is to provide incentives. That can either be enough cash to pay for the added buying expense, or a non cash incentive. Only when enough are used to drive total regional fuel consumption can everyone benefit. Did it help in our area? Don't know - hard to tell. If total consumption was down by 50K barrels during the Katrina crisis because of the high concentration of hybrids in our area and that translated to an overall savings of 10 cents per gallon, wouldn't you say that everyone benefited from the hybrid exemption?
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 27 Oct 2005 at 4:54am
NoSOV,
IF it were really about keeping prices down and decreasing overall demand on OIL supplies, then there is a mix that burns in EVERY gasoline powered vehicle on the roads. THAT partial solution can provide an IMMEDIATE decrease in crude oil demand by 15% with little effort on the distributors part. Oh, that mix also decreases the toxicity of emissions too.
Why hasn't anyone moved in that direction here? Other municipalities have mandated its use which indicates it is in the distribution stream. We haven't here because the color GREEN is blinding people to more comprehensive solutions that DON'T compromise one portion of the system by providing benefits to those in another portion.
I'm sure the color GREEN is what people think will buy us out of a mess. Some of those people are hybrid owners who drive SOV. These people DON'T help the overall system as their contribution is negligible and compromises others around them. IF it were just about ONE person's vehicle, sure buy a hybrid. but it's not... There's a whole other group of people out there who need to be encouraged to change driving and commuting habits. Most of those needing to change commuting habits are sitting in the mainline in SOVs. There's still plenty in the HOV who need to be encouraged to change driving habits since that alone can contribute to improving the overall situation so much more easily at little to no expense.
The SOV hybrid only allows the owner of that vehicle to feel good about themselves, but does little to improve the overall situation. Although the owner does help fund a marketing campaign that spreads disinformation to people to make unwise economic choices--many of those who choose poorly work in Richmond in the state house.
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 27 Oct 2005 at 10:33pm
NoSB: As I've said before, hybrids are better than regular cars even during non commuting travel.
By the way, if we are going to have the ability to burn other than fossil fuels, best way is to change the gas tank hole and pump just as was done during the switch from leaded to unleaded gas. If you have the tank modification, then you qualify for CF plates. Otherwise, no way to keep from cheating.
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2005 at 2:31pm
Hybrids are not part of the solution unless they carry more than one person. Until we learn that whatever our vehicles burn; gas, ethinol, bio-diesel, rice, small-furry animals, whatever, we do not succeed unless we maximize our vehicles' passenger capacity! In a perfect world I would support HOV-full lanes, where each seat in the car needed to be filled; four in a four seater, two in a two seater, eight in a club van, etc. One person per vehicle only works if you drive a unicycle!
How may seats are being wasted (empty) in your hybrid on the way home tonight? Strangely enough, I know that there are just that many very appreciative sluggers that would love to meet you!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2005 at 3:28pm
quote:
Originally posted by raymond
[br]Hybrids are not part of the solution unless they carry more than one person. Until we learn that whatever our vehicles burn; gas, ethinol, bio-diesel, rice, small-furry animals, whatever, we do not succeed unless we maximize our vehicles' passenger capacity! In a perfect world I would support HOV-full lanes, where each seat in the car needed to be filled; four in a four seater, two in a two seater, eight in a club van, etc. One person per vehicle only works if you drive a unicycle!
How may seats are being wasted (empty) in your hybrid on the way home tonight? Strangely enough, I know that there are just that many very appreciative sluggers that would love to meet you!
raymond, as I've said before, the logical extention to your assertation is for cars to be eliminated and replaced with buses. Have you ever taken a bus? Why aren't you taking one now?
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2005 at 8:01am
NoSUV,
I suggest you start moving in that direction by filling some of your hybrid's seats with people instead of hot air.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2005 at 10:07am
quote:
Originally posted by MDC
[br]NoSUV,
I suggest you start moving in that direction by filling some of your hybrid's seats with people instead of hot air.
I think what you have to remember is that the majority of commuters probably prefer toll roads. Folks have complained about the high number of hybrids in the express lanes during commuting hours, and many posts have also pointed out that the fuel savings are insufficient on their own to compensate for the expense of purchasing the cars. Do you honestly think that hybrid owners are AGAINST tolls? Unless, of course, the exemption is extended.
Anyone play the lottery? That same sort of hope is also fueling the sentiment of the drivers in the regular lanes - they can just buy their way out of the congestion when they need to. But, alas, like the lottery, they probably have slim odds.
Add those regular drivers to hybrid owners and companies willing to pay their drivers to get more quickly from one place to another (that includes out of area businesses) and you have an insurmountable lobby wanting tolls.
It's too bad no one made an effort to break up part of that group by supporting extention of the hybrid exemption. You can bet that SOV hybrid owners are backing the tolls now!
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2005 at 9:23pm
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I thought you wanted to improve the traffic situation?
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2005 at 10:53am
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A discriminator needs to be put on how to get cars from the regular lanes to the express lanes, and it's REALLY obvious that the current method, even with the hybrid exemption, doesn't work. Either we need more hybrids or we need tolls.
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2005 at 1:28pm
Wrong again, NoSUV. We do not need to "get cars from the regular lanes to the express lanes." Instead, we need to REDUCE the number of vehicles overall. Spreading the same number of cars from one set of highway lanes to another does nothing to relieve exit and secondary road traffic, nor does it reduce pollution, nor does it reduce traffic in any way.
Yet again we will lay out for you the elementary principle that MORE CARS = MORE CONGESTION regardless of the number of lanes, while FEWER CARS = LESS CONGESTION regardless of the number of lanes. So how do you incent FEWER CARS? By promising quicker trips on the uncongested HOV lanes.
Parked cars do not add to congestion. SOV's on the highway, in any lane, do.
Of the hundreds who read the posts here, not one agrees with you that we need to provide SOV access to the HOV lanes.
Does that tell you anything? That you alone believe something? And please don't just repeat your argument: we do understand it.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2005 at 7:06am
Sponge, your equation does not reflect all of the variables. Your assumption is that the number of roads is a constant. HOT proponents are willing to build more roads. So the number of lanes becomes the critical part of the argument.
If NO cars were allowed in the express lanes, would the congestion be better or worse? If only 1 car (yours) was allowed in the express lanes, how's the congestion now? For the majority, you might say it sucks, but you would say the congestion isn't a problem. Keep adding a few cars at a time to those express lanes, and eventually you'll get the idea.
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Posted By: HOV3Slug
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2005 at 9:52am
NoSUV,
Unless you are a salesman or a consultant and need your car for work, why drive to work? Even if your employer offers you a free parking space the wear and tear on your car to drive everyday just doesn’t make sense. How much does the insurance company charge to drive a hybrid 100 miles a day? Statistically speaking you’re a much greater risk to them since you have more exposure on the road.
The more you talk NoSUV, the more you sound like a Fluor employee or contractor. Your arguments on their face make no sense; therefore, you must have ulterior motives. At best you’re a selfish human being.
Hybrid because you want to stockpile fuel inventories, HOV because you want to stockpile fuel inventories, save the roads, and get to work and home faster!
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2005 at 2:51pm
Congrats HOV3Slug, you've finally realized NoSUV has a firm (if unfounded) opinion and agenda. You can't argue with a sick mind!
Urban planners, traffic management, politicians, special interests, the media, and the vast majority of commuters agree that that the answer to our congestion, pollution and fuel consumption problems is to reduce the number of vehicles on the road. Carpooling, HOV lanes, slugging, and mass transit all achieve this. The hybrid exemption does not.
Auto manufacturers and petro fuel production companies may cite other options (including hybrid/HOV exemptions), but they usually serve their own interests.
Hybrid owners are caught in the middle; they want to do something to improve the situation but don't understand the big picture. Enter effective marketing promoting hybrids as a "green" alternative with feel-good messaging, that pushes lots of buttons. People buy hybrids; then, when they realize the true insignificance of their effort, buyers regret sets in. Oppps!
NoSUV, however, clings to the commitment with too much zeel to be a mere misstepping consumer. I agree that there is an agenda here; political, business, I don't know which, but definitely not your average commuter.
Which brings me to a question: If NoSUV does not participate in slugging, what business does NoSUV have in this forum? Hmmmmm.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2005 at 10:43am
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Raymond - I've explained many times why I'm on this forum. Go through my postings.
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2005 at 3:11pm
I have NoSUV and I will not buy a hybrid from you! I'm saving my money for a biodiesel, solar, wind powered or ethinol vehicle; renewable fuel is the answer!
BTW, Hybrids are a farce!
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Posted By: omaryak
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2005 at 12:33am
I have a feeling the lower hybrid mileage comes from driving on the highway at excessive speeds. EPA highway estimates are based on the most economical speed of 55 mph, but most people drive faster. A hybrid has to rely more on its gas engine the faster it goes, so it stands to reason its mileage performance would deteriorate at higher speeds. This very quandary was discussed at a regional government meeting I attended once.
Still, I must support allowing hybrid use of the HOV lanes -- for now -- until hybrid adoption becomes cheaper and more widespread, to serve as an incentive for taking a step that does help the environment overall. Hybrids are 90 percent less polluting than their gasoline-only counterparts, and in congested city areas they rely mainly on their electrical portion for motion. Ever hear a hybrid start up from a stoplight? It uses only electrical energy, saving the burst of exhaust (and pollution) that comes from gasoline engines.
The Toyota hybrid is called "Prius" for a reason – it represents the most prudent use of gasoline on the market, and while its highway mileage may be lacking, it more than makes up for it in its superior city performance. And what are the use of HOV lanes but to funnel people into the city?
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2005 at 1:23am
They could very easily be funnelled into the city in the mainlanes since, as you point out, in stop & go traffic, they are highly "fuel" efficient and less polluting.
Substantial incentives already exist paid for by our tax dollars.
Love the benefits of hybrids? Put them where they do the most good overall---in the mainlanes. Oh, unless they have the requisite bodies for HOV participation.
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2005 at 8:33am
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NoSB: Sorry, but you aren't right on this. Hybrids are only 2% of total car production. How can we get that to 100%? The demand isn't there because the more expensive technology makes it more expensive to purchase. Therefore, to make them affordable, either you need to pay more in the way of subsidy, or there must be non-financial incentives. There is a higher concnetration of hybrids in this region than anywhere else in the US. Any you know the reason why.
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2005 at 12:56pm
Yes, NoSUV, hybrids are popular here because of the exemption. The exemption paves the way for hybrid ownership which creates more hybrid advocates who support the exemption. Its sort of like a small tornado that feeds on itself spinning out of control and destroying everything in its path. Hybrids create a false sense of conservation for their owners which leads to apathy when hybrid owners feel that they are "helping the problem" by driving SOV; an obvious contradiction.
Bottom line is that hybrids are a bandaid, not a solution. And as long as they are allowed in the HOVs without maximizing ridership they are part of the problem.
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Posted By: Lisa292
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2005 at 2:27am
quote:
Originally posted by tdar20
[br]Once again misguided reporting. I have a buddy with a Hybrid and his city driving is well over 40 m
You'll decide that your previous conclusions were wrong and change ways?
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Posted By: TROLL
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2005 at 10:22am
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Where's the Christmas cheer in this place?
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Posted By: omaryak
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2006 at 9:59pm
quote:
Originally posted by raymond
Hybrids create a false sense of conservation for their owners which leads to apathy when hybrid owners feel that they are "helping the problem" by driving SOV; an obvious contradiction.
Bottom line is that hybrids are a bandaid, not a solution. And as long as they are allowed in the HOVs without maximizing ridership they are part of the problem.
I guess the question comes down to one of promoting carpooling versus promoting environmental benefits in general. Overall I'd rather see someone driving alone in their hybrid in an HOV lane than polluting the air in standstill traffic in the regular lanes – or worse, using an SUV do to it.
It's true that the hybrid solution is a band-aid – the hybrid exemption cannot last forever, but as a temporary measure it promotes hybrid usage in the short term.
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2006 at 8:47am
omaryak,
End the exemption and the hybrids will either have more people per vehicle in HOV, or pollute even less than they are now in the regular lanes. Winner on both counts.
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Posted By: Jerry Seinfeld
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2006 at 3:52pm
What's the deal with these hybrids? What are they a breed of?
Did someone say " I'm going to Mate a Ford and a Honda and see what I get?".
And how DO you mate two cars? Does one have a longer dipstick, and that's how they tell which is the male?
What's the deal with these airbags? Some don't work until the front end of your car is all the way to the dash, and you are awake for the impact, but get knocked out from the airbag.
By then it's too late! You've already been tramatized by the impact.
Why knock you out after the crash?
This is why people seem disoriented at a crash site, it's not from the impact but from the air bag.
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2006 at 7:48am
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Another day, another troll.
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Posted By: Patriot37
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2006 at 10:04pm
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Thanks for the discusion. The fact remains that people need incentives to change their ways. In this case, one of the most important issues to so many is the commute. Paying extra for a certain type of vehicle is a no brainer for some. The benifit is buying dollars to entice manufacturers toward better technology the public can use. Many (my family encluded) like our SUV very much. Getting 31/38 mpg is great and I'm sure it's just a small step to what's to come. Alt. fuel, bikes, hybrids... incentives just plain work. Oh, I'm sure you'll like this, might as well let those with more bucks than time pay for the third lane to really keep moving. Have a nice day. Time to go save the world.
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2006 at 4:45pm
Patriot,
There's no room for a third lane at the "mixing bowl". Come to think of it, there's not enough room for a safe third lane along most of the HOV lanes.
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Posted By: beachhead
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2006 at 5:00pm
MDC,
Most of the people on this board these days can't clutter up their minds with facts like "there's not enough room for a safe third lane" or "the technology does not exist to differentiate between SOVs with transponders and HOVs with three people and no transponders in the HOT lanes." Unfortunately, these discussions are going nowhere anymore since HOT seems to be a foregone conclusion because our illustrious political "leaders" see HOT as a way to say they have a plan to "fix" traffic without having to find a way to fund it through taxation. The courage of the political class these days, REP and DEM, is nauseating.
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2006 at 7:33am
REP/DEM---not much DIF when it comes down to it. They're only really about keeping themselves in office while they amass as much capital (political and financial) as they can garner.
This country needs statesmen, not politicians.
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: lakeridgegirl73
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2006 at 9:13pm
[?]
It's my understanding that the hybrids get better gas mileage in traffic? If I was a hybrid driver, (if my understanding in valid) I would drive the traffic lanes to save the fuel. True? In addition, tell me how a Lexus RX330 Hybrid gets better gas mileage than say a Honda Civic, so why can't Honda civic owners ride in the HOV lanes by themselves? Just wondering.....
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2006 at 8:54am
lakeridgegirl,
Hybrids are special. The RX400h uses it's electric motor to boost horsepower by about 65HP, and improve 0-60 accelleration by .9 seconds over the RX330(6.9 seconds vs 7.8). MPG-wise it gets 3-4 MPG better on the highway than the RX330. Toyota named it "400" to indicate that it has more power than the "330", despite them both having 208HP 3.3 liter V6 engines.
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2006 at 2:43pm
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I'm sure when the auto lobbyists first got the hybrid exemption passed, they never bothered to tell the legislators that in a few years they would be looking at hybrid sport utes. Also that the hybrid technology can be used for EITHER higher milage OR better performance, or a mix of both. Now the legislators have got a big problem if they dont end the exemption. Hopefully they have come up the learning curve but dont bet on it.
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2006 at 7:26am
Bob,
It ain't about the "learning", it's about the green. Follow the $$.
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2006 at 9:54am
quote:
Originally posted by Bob
[br]I'm sure when the auto lobbyists first got the hybrid exemption passed, they never bothered to tell the legislators that in a few years they would be looking at hybrid sport utes. Also that the hybrid technology can be used for EITHER higher milage OR better performance, or a mix of both. Now the legislators have got a big problem if they dont end the exemption. Hopefully they have come up the learning curve but dont bet on it.
Bob,
Legislators have even a bigger problems if they don't extend the exemption. Nearly all are on record for supporting it. Have you found even one to go on record for ending it?
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2006 at 12:59pm
Too much green flowing their way from the car/oil alliance. As long as they get elected by spending gross amounts on campaign propaganda, why would they change?
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2006 at 4:19pm
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It would be a little interesting if they did extend the exemption. They would extend it, a huge flood of new hybrids would be purchased within weeks, and then the legislators would find the need to un-extend the exemption.
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Posted By: 122582
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2006 at 7:47pm
What if the HOV exemption were based upon the new "realistic" EPA MPG figures? Let's say anything over 45 MPG as rated by the EPA could drive SOV. Make the EPA start rating motorcycles so the exemption is fair.
All 4 of my Prius driving colleagues get only 40 MPG. Another colleague with a VW diesel gets 55 MPG. If I drive my small car 55 MPH, I get 45 MPG. I had a Geo Metro that got 55 MPG at 60 MPH.
We need legislation that encourages manufacturers to build better cars, not squeeze 2 more MPG out of a 400 HP SUV, so it can drive SOV.
Keep slugging alive - tip your driver today!
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2006 at 3:28pm
What if everyone were treated fairly by our government? What if you were not discriminated against because you made a different buying decision? I can't afford to buy a hybrid, does that make me some kind of a second class citizen? In the world today it does! Wake up, its marketing! Hybrids are not the answer to our fuel/traffic congestion/smog problems! Hybrids are marketing, that's it! They are a way for auto companies to add to their product line and appeal to "green-thinkers" with a manipulation of facts argument.
Sorry, but as long as the lanes say HOV-3, a single passenger hybrid will not be HOV-3. Exemption = discrimination! HOV-3 should stay HOV-3! Why? Because it works, its free, its already there, it encourages smart decisions, it solves several problems, it is a good solution! But NOOOOOOOOOOO! Everyone has got to look for ways to mess with a good thing.
Politicians: "...hey, they're riding for free, we can make some money off them!"
Auto companies: "...hey we need more products for people to buy, lets make some stuff up and get political buy in."
Green wanabees: "...this is cool, I get to buy something and don't have to carpool to use the HOVs. I feel green."
Get smart people! Hybrids are a scam. HOV exemptions discriminate. HOT is both a scam and discriminates, and it screws the very people the HOV lanes were designed to serve.
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2006 at 5:15pm
What is interesting is everyone that uses the slugging system that I speak with is vehemently against both hybrid and HOT. And yet, on this site, it seems that most of the politically involved members have drifted away and no longer contribute.
I say, keep fighting the good fight, writing letters and talking it up. We can and will still make a difference on both issues.
On hybrid, they may well get another year exension. However, it is obvious to all but a fool that it will have to end when the clogging gets worse and worse. Of course, tens of thousands of us good guys are going to pay the price for this IDIOCY.
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2006 at 6:53am
Raymond,
You forgot the oil companies: Hey, mpgs are headed south, time to work up a new international story to justify our outrageous increases in gas prices.
All the while continuing the great American dependency on oil products rather than considering diversifying into products that actually support America's interests and policies (if our elected officials would think comprehensive strategies, instead of trust fund earnings).
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: TROLL
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2006 at 10:30am
There has been a problem!
Invalid Password or User Name
Go back to correct the problem.
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Posted By: Patriot37
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2006 at 2:26pm
Hello Bob, how are you today? Well I hope. I have a suggestion that might help your situation… Increase the circle people you speak with. It may help make for a more interesting and informed life. I slug 3-4 times per week (every day for the last 3 weeks) and I find that sluggers are about 50/50 on the subject. I also found it interesting that about 15% of us own hybrids. Try getting out a little more, enjoy yourself.
Raymond, No you’re not a second class citizen. As for affording a hybrid, that’s a personal problem, one you have control over. You’re right that hybrids are not THE answer, but they are a work in progress and a step in the right direction. Our Escape is the right vehicle for my family and now that I can buy one that averages over 30 mpg, I’m in. This is just the first step toward much greater technology. We need the incentives for the people and manufacturers in order to grow and change, otherwise, you’d be riding a horse. Giddie up.
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Posted By: VA4ver
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2006 at 3:09pm
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It's true that hybrids are the step in the right direction WHEN it improves gas mileage. But when you say an SUV hybrid that might get 30 mpg is an improvement, then you are in the wrong. What is needed is 40+ mpg cars and yes that means a decrease in size. Sorry to say the Escape, Lexus, etc. are an excuse to keep the big cars. 30 mpg -- that's not a lot of mileage!
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Posted By: Patriot37
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2006 at 8:18pm
Hi VA4ver,
The fact is, the SUV isn't going away. Which do you preffer: 12 mpg or 30+? I call that a substantial improvement. My Escape gets better gas milage than over 80% of the family cars made today (and remember, we're just getting started). If you want real economy, are you driving a bike the rest of the time? Since it's a "utlity vehicle" we can use it for all those functions we couldn't with a car. Oh, did mention, this is a great beginning. Happy trails.
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Posted By: Man of Reason
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2006 at 10:29am
quote:
Originally posted by Patriot37
[br]Hi VA4ver,
The fact is, the SUV isn't going away. Which do you preffer: 12 mpg or 30+? I call that a substantial improvement. My Escape gets better gas milage than over 80% of the family cars made today (and remember, we're just getting started). If you want real economy, are you driving a bike the rest of the time? Since it's a "utlity vehicle" we can use it for all those functions we couldn't with a car. Oh, did mention, this is a great beginning. Happy trails.
Great to hear that reasonable heads are prevailing in the VA Assembly...A compromise solution has always been the correct path for hybrids using the HOV lanes in VA....Ending an exemption because it's been too successful??? that's bassackwards...also, too much congestion in the regular lanes....where would you put the additional cars??
I commute daily using a Civic Hybrid on the HOV lanes (after 7:30 in the am and before 5:00 in the pm, hov-2 and alone ) and continue to be struck by the assertion of sluggers, vanpoolers, etc.that the HOV lanes are overcrowded (some commuters on pro-slugging websites even claim, ridiculously so, that there's often more congestion in HOV vs. non-HOV...). If these people were being honest, they would tell you that with the exception of bottlenecks at two points in the HOV corridor (beginning at Edsell Rd. through the Springfield Interchange where ALL vehicles are allowed to enter HOV and the Eads St. exit at the Pentagon) traffic moves at a steady pace of 65+ miles an hour. If anything, I would contend that the HOV lanes along the I-95 corridor are underutilized given the extreme congestion problems experienced in non-HOV lanes.
An article by "Dr. Gridlock" (Ron Shaffer) of the Washington Post echo's my sentiment and it seems the majority of users in HOV lanes; In the
article he asked readers for their counts and opinions of hybrid vehicles in the HOV-3 lanes. The consensus among readers was that there is not a
congestion problem outside of the bottlenecks mentioned above and that hybrids should continue to be allowed for this use...The following were
some of the conclusions drawn and a link to the article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46042-2005Feb23.html
Given the above, not to mention the fuel crisis we're in here in America, the move toward HOT lanes along I-95 and overall support of the hybrid exemption (see below), extending the exemption in one form or another is the only logical course of action.....
Other Facts
The Washington Post conducted a scientific survey of attitudes toward hybrids and the use of HOV lanes in VA. "In a recent Washington Post poll, 56 percent
of Northern Virginians said single-person hybrid vehicles should be allowed to use carpool lanes, and 43 percent said they should not. Across the
region, 53 percent said they should be allowed and 45 percent said they should not. To measure attitudes toward commuting, The Post interviewed 1,003 randomly selected adults in the Washington area Jan. 27 to 31." 2005
In addition, national polling favors hybrid use in HOV-lanes; MSNBC poll did poll similar to the Washington Post....70% support the hybrid exemption in
HOV....1682 people were polled...(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54561-2005Jan6.html
)...
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Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2006 at 6:28pm
quote:
Originally posted by Man of Reason
[br]Originally posted by Patriot37
[br]Hi VA4ver,
The fact is, the SUV isn't going away. Which do you preffer: 12 mpg or 30+? I call that a substantial improvement. My Escape gets better gas milage than over 80% of the family cars made today (and remember, we're just getting started). If you want real economy, are you driving a bike the rest of the time? Since it's a "utlity vehicle" we can use it for all those functions we couldn't with a car. Oh, did mention, this is a great beginning. Happy trails.
I just took a scientific survey of four people in Dobbins, California. Seventy-five percent agreed that Virginia should rent out its governors mansion for wedding receptions.
Take two asprin, recruit three slugs to relieve congestion.
dickboyd@aol.com
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Posted By: chief_pace
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2006 at 8:03pm
HOV lanes are for High Occupancy Vehicles. Hybrids get the payoff with the mileage and tax break. What irks most slugs is the fact that Hybrids violates the spirit of the concept of HOV. My suggestion is that since 3 in a hybrid wrecks the mileage then let Hybrids on as HOV 2 vehicles in the HOV 3 lane. That would seem to be fair. That would also take in account the Insights that only can take two.
I know the recent move by the Senate has made me politically active again. Both HOT and Hybrid rulings have made it clear that the only thing that counts is allowing people to buy their way on to the HOV. Money rules and self interest would be the salient factor in both issues. sd
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Posted By: Max_28756
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2006 at 10:14am
This is directly from the VDOT WEB site http://www.virginiadot.org/comtravel/hov-default.asp
"HOV Lanes or High Occupancy Vehicle lanes are designed to help move more people through congested areas. On the outskirts of the nation's capital, the Virginia Department of Transportation provides HOV-2 (two or more travelers) and HOV-3 (three or more travelers) lanes to help.
HOV lanes allow users to travel faster, while also freeing up congestion in regular lanes."
HOV lanes are not designed to save the environment. They are not designed as incentives to purchase new technology. They are designed as incentive to get the most people in the least amount of cars thus reducing the number of cars on the road. By reducing the number of cars on the road, you reduce congestion. The environmental plus is that by reducing the amount of autos, you reduce the amount of pollution.
Simply having a Hybrid tag on your car or truck does not place you into an exclusive club of saving the environment. There are dirty hybrids out there as well as pure gas engine cars with cleaner emissions than a hybrid.
Please do not lose touch with the pure purpose of the HOV - HIGH OCCUPANCY VEHICLES!
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Posted By: Patriot37
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2006 at 11:31pm
Pure purpose...
Keep the big/bigger picture in mind. Traffic and travel decisions can't be complete without including all the needs like flow, time, #s of cars, economy, emmisions and probably more that I haven't mentioned. To focus on just one aspect in need (the one that seems most important to you/them) is very short sighted and leads to fishtailing. See you on the road.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2006 at 7:39am
quote:
Originally posted by Max_28756
[br]This is directly from the VDOT WEB site http://www.virginiadot.org/comtravel/hov-default.asp
"HOV Lanes or High Occupancy Vehicle lanes are designed to help move more people through congested areas. On the outskirts of the nation's capital, the Virginia Department of Transportation provides HOV-2 (two or more travelers) and HOV-3 (three or more travelers) lanes to help.
HOV lanes allow users to travel faster, while also freeing up congestion in regular lanes."
HOV lanes are not designed to save the environment. They are not designed as incentives to purchase new technology. They are designed as incentive to get the most people in the least amount of cars thus reducing the number of cars on the road. By reducing the number of cars on the road, you reduce congestion. The environmental plus is that by reducing the amount of autos, you reduce the amount of pollution.
Simply having a Hybrid tag on your car or truck does not place you into an exclusive club of saving the environment. There are dirty hybrids out there as well as pure gas engine cars with cleaner emissions than a hybrid.
Please do not lose touch with the pure purpose of the HOV - HIGH OCCUPANCY VEHICLES!
Max - the I-95/395 corridor was NOT built with HOV in mind. They were built as express lanes. The concept was that commuters who don't need to use local exits could breeze by, reducing congestion by improving traffic flow. HOV came about as an after thought. If the lanes were built with HOV in mind, there would be more entrances and exits.
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Posted By: Max_28756
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2006 at 1:16pm
Only the Shirley Highway portion was built as express lanes. The remainder was built as HOV and have Transportation Department guidance on allowing only vehicles with ILEV designation run as SOV's. When DMV included hybrids as CF eligible in 2000, it was as an incentive for environmental issues. Now Federal regulations have made vehicles after 2004 have the same or better emissions as hybrids. The incentive is gone as should be the exemption.
Last count put over 22% SOV hybrids blocking the HOV. Lanes are designed to hold between 1,500 and 1,800 vphpl. Hybrids push that limit past 1,900. Carpool!
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2006 at 1:40pm
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Or better yet, hybrid owners could pick up slugs or form a carpool to add passengers. As I have said many times, hybrids are not the solution. And hybrids with at least three passengers do not contribute to the problem. This is not complicated folks; SOV hybrids contribute to congestion. I agree that people should take mass transit, and that POVs should carpool, and that HOV lanes should be reserved for multiple passenger vehicles.
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Posted By: TROLL
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2006 at 4:20pm
So basically Hybrid owners are selfish? I thought it seemed odd that some hybrid owners don't bother picking up slugs.
It seems like the practical idea, a car that has great gas mileage, should be used for commuting.
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Posted By: SillyBilly
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2006 at 7:54am
Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2006 at 12:42pm
quote:
Originally posted by Max_28756
[br]Only the Shirley Highway portion was built as express lanes. The remainder was built as HOV and have Transportation Department guidance on allowing only vehicles with ILEV designation run as SOV's. When DMV included hybrids as CF eligible in 2000, it was as an incentive for environmental issues. Now Federal regulations have made vehicles after 2004 have the same or better emissions as hybrids. The incentive is gone as should be the exemption.
Last count put over 22% SOV hybrids blocking the HOV. Lanes are designed to hold between 1,500 and 1,800 vphpl. Hybrids push that limit past 1,900. Carpool!
Max,
A previous post had links to historical items from around 1974. I used that link and quoted from the precursor of VDOT to get my facts. The lanes were originally for buses only - HOV was an after thought. Just like hybrids, only 25 years later.
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2006 at 3:47pm
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So what! Nothing that NoSUV has said changes the fact that SOV hybrids add to congestion in lanes designed for HOVs (personal, private or whatever).
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2006 at 4:05pm
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NoSUV knows that a vast majority of the HOV lanes were built in the late 1980's and 1990's solely for HOV. Of course, HoSUV only cares about the 7 miles NoSUV drives on.
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Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2006 at 10:58pm
quote:
Originally posted by Man of Reason
I commute daily using a Civic Hybrid on the HOV lanes .
Do me a favor and tell us what the emissions rating of your car is? It is located in the engine bay.
quote:
An article by "Dr. Gridlock" (Ron Shaffer) of the Washington Post echo's my sentiment and it seems the majority of users in HOV lanes; In the
article he asked readers for their counts and opinions of hybrid vehicles in the HOV-3 lanes. The consensus among readers was that there is not a
congestion problem outside of the bottlenecks mentioned above and that hybrids should continue to be allowed for this use.
Dr Gridlock is biased and you can't rely on a moderated column as representative of the population.
quote:
Other Facts
The Washington Post conducted a scientific survey of attitudes toward hybrids and the use of HOV lanes in VA.
Did they ask how people felt if half the hybirds were as dirty or dirtier than the average new car? Polls are easily designed to elicit an answer you want.
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Posted By: ProNo
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2006 at 10:09am
Man of Reason,
I would challenge that poll on two counts:
1. I would also like to know where those who were polled commuted from, and at what times (that is, what portion of the people polled contend with the worst of the consequences from SOV hybrids.)
2. Most importanly, I would want to know what portion of the polled individuals were themselves hybrid owners. If we assume that 22% of those polled were already hybrid owners (which is the accepted proportion of total HOV traffic), we can also assume the answers from that 22% block would be automatically in favor of hybrid exemptions because no hybrid owner would oppose their own benefit.
So, if you subtract 22 points (the proportion of "automatic yes" hybrid owners) from the survey's "in favor" category, you're left with only 34% of regular folks in favor and 45% of regular folks opposed.
Maybe in future polls, SOV hyrid owners should only be allowed 1/3 of a vote.
-ProNo
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2006 at 1:54pm
ProNo: I don't think MoR ever said that the poll was just taken of users of the express lanes during HOV hours. I think you accidentally jumped to that conclusion.
The world WOULD be a better place if at least 22% of all vehicles were hybrids, but I'm not sure that a measly 8K are enough.
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Posted By: savage1
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2006 at 4:34pm
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I believe SLUGS would feel better about Hybrids if when we looked into their cars there were at least "2 passengers" rather than ONE[:p]
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