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SpongeBob View Drop Down
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Joined: 06 Oct 2004
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SpongeBob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2006 at 11:55am
Once a privileged class is created, it is nigh impossible to eliminate its perks. If we don't have toll roads, the legislature will eventually have to do the unpleasant task of barring solo CF-tagged hybrids, despite the loud whining of the Lucky Few who had the means to buy in early.

As more hybrids hit the market, it will become even more clear that it is patently unfair that the Lucky Few get HOV access while the Late Majority doesn't.

But who cares about equity or fairness any more? Hey, get your hands off MY piece of the pie, latecomer!
[:(!]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoSUV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2006 at 12:16pm
With the biggest threat to our way of life being global warming, it's only a matter of time before private autos will be able to be used by the "privileged" class. Of course, before the Model T, wasn't it that way, too? Do you suppose that roads were built back then exclusively for autos?

Best legislation we could have now is to ban non-hybrid private autos from express lanes. Talk about an incentive to trade in your fuel inefficient polluting conventional vehicle! And just think - government won't have to pay for it! That should make both advocates of less taxes and tree huggers happy.

Second best is to have all roads become toll roads with hybrid exemption. Quite easy to install permanent "Smart Tags" into all autos with those on hybrids keyed to allow free passage - with others paying. Shoot, tolls could be based on a combination of fuel efficiency and lack of pollution, with pick-ups and Hummers paying the most.

Or we could just buy beachfront property in Arizona.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote darkprime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2006 at 12:58pm
Suppose your suggestions became law and everyone bought a hybrid, so that hybrids >> non-hybrids. Then what? From a traffic perspective, nothing will have changed than it has now. Couple that with an ever growing population and less incentive to carpool, traffic would be even worse. From an energy perspective, why not push harder for forms of energy that have no dependence on fossil fuels.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoSUV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2006 at 2:07pm
Ah, dark. Seems I've heard this one before from about 2 years ago. The gist is "why do something now when we should wait for something better?"

2 years, and counting.

Gore called it "An Inconvenient Truth." There are at least 2 key words here. Most focus on the last one - truth. What most can't stand is the inconvenient part.

We've got to quit waiting. Hasn't done any good so far...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SpongeBob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2006 at 2:39pm
NoSUV, as usual your argument is logically invalid.

To whit: what would be the situation today if we had offered HOV-free passes for all new cars equipped with catalytic converters back in 1975, when they were a new technology for pollution reduction? Once everyone had the converters, you would have almost no carpools left.

So if we follow your plan, once everyone has a hybrid (which will certainly happen), then everyone will have access to the carpool lanes, and voila, no more carpools.

But if you allow only CF-HOV's then you cause a marked increase in non-HOV non-hybrid traffic, meaning even more pollution.

Also, 99% of the country doesn't have meaningful carpool lanes. The only ways to dramatically increase the number of hybrids on the road are to fully subsidize the price differential or have the EPA and FDOT mandate that auto makers sell an ever-increasing number of hybrids each year. The EPA mandated catalytic converters and no-lead gasoline even in the face of a lawsuit from the Ethyl Gasoline Corporation.

We have already hashed out the issue of forcing people to discard their perfectly good vehicles to gain access to a public facility. Not all of us can afford to be so cavalier about car payments, NoSUV.

But I am sure we will all pitch in to buy you a place in Arizona, if you promise to leave and not bother us again.

(BTW, population growth, not climate change, is the looming environmental disaster. But since nobody can get anywhere near that sensitive topic, we fiddle on the edges with Easy Stuff like rain forests and baby seal hunts.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoSUV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2006 at 3:45pm
Sponge,

You really need to think things through a bit better. With your example, the key is to change when change is needed. Once enough people have a hybrid, then the change is to HOV. For those who cannot afford to commute, economics will eventually solve that problem for them. Either they will cough up cash to commute (so much for free rides - who in their right mind came up with the permanent thought that they should always be allowed to travel at another's expense?) via public transportation, purchase a quailifying vehicle, or find employment closer to where they choose to live.

How do you suppose metropolitan areas with a greater population density but better traffic manage to make it? Do you think that the reason they don't have a traffic problem is because the workforce doesn't exist there? Or do you suppose that those who choose to live further away are wealthy enough to pay to commute - either with private autos or public transportation.

You were one of the ones who commented months ago about how rapidly the hybrid growth occurred in this region - complaining, if I recall about "the dramatic increase [in] the number of hybrids on the road" yet there was NO full subsidy on the price differential nor was there an EPA or FDOT mandate.

You may have noticed that developed countries have slowed in population growth - there are even a few in Europe with 0 growth. The looming disaster is hitting a thermal tipping point, when the earth can no longer self regulate.

Feel free to donate to my Arizona beachfront property fund, though. I'm pretty sure I'll live long enough to not have to worry about what you (collective you) are doing to the environment - my grandkids may not be so lucky.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SpongeBob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2006 at 10:06am
I really am trying to follow your argument. I must be stupid, though, because I simply cannot understand what you mean in your first paragraph above. It appears to boil down to: "Too bad for you if you cannot afford a new car -- get on the bus, Gus."

Comparing DC traffic with other metro areas is invalid. Every city has its own set of issues. The commuting patterns in DC are unique to our city, and cannot be compared to, say, Denver, or Chicago. To pick only one thing, there are far fewer river crossings than for comparably sized cities. Also, we have essentially three contentious "state" governments involved in traffic and transit planning.

But you have said in other posts that slugging is somehow the cause of DC traffic congestion.

Anyway, back to hybrids. If you make the HOV an "SOV Hybrid Only Lane", yes, people will buy many hybrids. In fact, so many will be bought that in a short time, the express lanes will be completely jammed and the benefit of having a hybrid and using the lanes will disappear. So you have a self-destructive system there. Also, the lanes will be moving fewer people.

The goal is to move more people in fewer vehicles -- a guaranteed pollution reducer, not create incentives for solo driving.

But what really bugs me about your thinking is how elitist it is. You blithely dismiss the troubles of anyone who cannot afford a new hybrid car, and Scroogily consign them to the bus, conveniently out of your way.

Finally, your hypocritical claims to being concerned about the environment don't fool anyone here. You would not have bought your hybrid if it was not for the HOV exemption, and your attention to retaining your special privilege is 100% proof of where your interests lie.

(BTW, here is world population in billions.
1900 1650
1920 1860
1940 2300
1960 3020
1980 4430
2000 6070
Climate change, like ALL global environmental issues, is directly related to population.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoSUV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2006 at 10:26am
quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]I... If you make the HOV an "SOV Hybrid Only Lane", yes, people will buy many hybrids. In fact, so many will be bought that in a short time, the express lanes will be completely jammed and the benefit of having a hybrid and using the lanes will disappear. So you have a self-destructive system there. Also, the lanes will be moving fewer people.

The goal is to move more people in fewer vehicles -- a guaranteed pollution reducer, not create incentives for solo driving.


Sponge - breaking this down into bite (byte?) sized chunks.

Once express lanes become clogged, change is possible and probable to go to hybrid HOV only.

The goal. Hmm, depends on your goal. If the goal is to cause destruction of the planet, keep providing incentives to buy more polluting and less efficient vehicles. Check. Current legislation does that. If your goal is to guide people into mass transit (HOV-40) then the current legislation is exactly wrong. If the goal is to have 100% of driving, not just commuting, to be lower pollution and better fuel economy, then teh current legislation also fails.

How many hybrids did you see parked in the commuter lot today? Maybe the goal should be to have so many vehicles that are hybrids so that the answer would be 100%. Without taxpayers having to foot the bill.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoSUV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2006 at 10:31am
quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]Finally, your hypocritical claims to being concerned about the environment don't fool anyone here. You would not have bought your hybrid if it was not for the HOV exemption, and your attention to retaining your special privilege is 100% proof of where your interests lie.



Sponge - Second bite (byte). I purchased my hybrid 8 months before moving to the region, well before I had an employment offer.

The area in which I lived did not have express lanes - but there were toll roads (I-90 was nearby). On a different topic (toll roads) I don't understand the legal arguments from those who are upset about taxpayer funded roads becoming toll roads since probably all of the interstate toll roads were bought that way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoSUV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2006 at 10:38am
quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]
(BTW, here is world population in billions.
1900 1650
1920 1860
1940 2300
1960 3020
1980 4430
2000 6070
Climate change, like ALL global environmental issues, is directly related to population.)


Sponge - 3rd bite. The data is meaningless without comparing population to climate change. If you could show a correlation between population in 1000 AD to global climate and track it for every 100 years to show correlation, then you could have an argument. However, the data you have chosen also corresponds to automobile production; you could just as easily show a relationship between automobile production and climate change -- which, although production has a relationship to population, it also has a link to industrialization. After all, if autos from the beginning ran on electric power, perhaps we would see a different statistic related to climate change.
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