Hybrids - a threat to car-pooling?

Message Topic Search Topic Options Post Reply Create New Topic Printable Version Translate Topic

   Should the target be to free Shirley Highway? Freeflow that is. Freeflow in ALL the lanes.

	quote:
Originally posted by qorc

	[br]quote:
Originally posted by vabigblue

	[br]It is selective; however, as wdossell stated, it the fact of solo driving in lanes designed for 3 or more.  I have no problem with hybrids either, but its odd that hybrid owners feel somewhat violated at the mention of the exemption being lifted earlier than 2006. Motorcycles are built for one (in most cases).  Kids and infants qualify as persons, so hybrids are left.  One car with 5 seats, 4 empty is not high occupancy.[|)]

	yeah but the point of high occupancy is to take DRIVERS off the road - kids and infants aren't drivers.  So let's be consistent.

	Motorcylces?  Most could easily carry TWO and they take up lane space.

	But you object to empty seats?  so when I see a full size van with 3 people and 5-6 empty seats does it apply to them as well? Or again, is it only selective?  Even my minivan can transport 7.  

	The point is that the arguments are very selective and inconsistent. If the point is to take DRIVERS off the road, then it should be no hybrids, no motorcyles, no kids or infants. Period.  that would open up all kinds of space.

	dickboyd@aol.com

Author	Message Topic Search Topic Options Post Reply Create New Topic Printable Version Translate Topic
dickboyd Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 13 Nov 2004 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote dickboyd Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Mar 2005 at 10:54pm
	Should the target be to free Shirley Highway? Freeflow that is. Freeflow in ALL the lanes. quote: Originally posted by qorc [br] quote: Originally posted by vabigblue [br]It is selective; however, as wdossell stated, it the fact of solo driving in lanes designed for 3 or more. I have no problem with hybrids either, but its odd that hybrid owners feel somewhat violated at the mention of the exemption being lifted earlier than 2006. Motorcycles are built for one (in most cases). Kids and infants qualify as persons, so hybrids are left. One car with 5 seats, 4 empty is not high occupancy.[\|)] yeah but the point of high occupancy is to take DRIVERS off the road - kids and infants aren't drivers. So let's be consistent. Motorcylces? Most could easily carry TWO and they take up lane space. But you object to empty seats? so when I see a full size van with 3 people and 5-6 empty seats does it apply to them as well? Or again, is it only selective? Even my minivan can transport 7. The point is that the arguments are very selective and inconsistent. If the point is to take DRIVERS off the road, then it should be no hybrids, no motorcyles, no kids or infants. Period. that would open up all kinds of space. dickboyd@aol.com

NoSUV Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote NoSUV Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Mar 2005 at 9:45am
	The focus on hybrids masks the REAL problem - increase in population in the burbs combned with increase in job opportunities in DC which led to overall increase in total congestion. Although the HOV lanes have become worse, the regular commuter lanes have become even more crowded. The push to move hybrids off HOV has caused Transportation authorities as well as law makers to realize that the overall congestion problem needs a different solution. Reducing traffic in HOV by adding to commuter lanes is untenable for those who get elected by the masses - since there's a heck of a lot more masses in the regular commuter lanes, adding to their commute for a "minor" HOV slowdown is a surefire way to have a change in elected officials. HOT becomes the path of least pain. Alternate solutions have to find a way to better balance the congestion between HOV and regular lanes. Hybrid exemption was a shot at that, but rabble rousing will likely kill that. With exemption expiring in 06, only solution on the board now is HOT. Perhaps Slugs need to push for extension of the hybrid exemption as the lesser of 2 evils - for one of them will surely win.

VA4ver Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 09 Feb 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote VA4ver Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Mar 2005 at 10:51am
	I don't think changing HOV to toll/HOT (whatever) lanes will be an efficient use of time, etc. As stated before, HOV was designed to move people in and out of the city on buses; now it's carpools and buses. Take away HOV, people will not use buses nor will they carpool. They will join the ranks of solo drivers. If the option to travel quickly into the city via carpool/bus isn't there, what other method do people have to fall back on that's affordable and flexible? Hybrids can just join the ranks of carpoolers or hop over to the regular lanes -- it's all about choice. Give more incentives to increase the number of carpools by making sure there's plenty of parking (even if there's a $1-3/day charge on the lots = ~$15 a week) and use of HOV.

dickboyd Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 13 Nov 2004 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote dickboyd Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Mar 2005 at 12:25pm
	Busways, as on I-10 in Texas, were designed to move people in and out of the city on buses. There were a few other barrier separted guideways for buses only. Dulles Access, segments of airport accesses, etc. Bus slip ramp entrances, etc. OK, this is nitpicking semantics. When the reversible lanes of Shirley were under construction, the power play to limit them to buses only was attempted on Shirley Highway. When car pools were finally allowed, the car pools could not exit at the Pentagon. Senator Saslaw is one of the unsung political heroes that went to bat for slugs to get the reversible lanes open for HOV and to get all the ramps open for car pools. For his efforts, he was reviled in the press. To say that the Shirley Highway reversible lanes were built for buses is Cody Pfanstiehl revisionist history at its worst. The reversible lanes were planned for no restriction. But by the time the lanes were built every jurisdiction south of the Potomac River had claimed 125% of the capacity. Alexandria, Arlington, Fairfax County, Prince William County, the State of Virginia. Shippers in North Carolina. There was a HUGE contingency of people commuting by car pool. Both formal and casual. About 35% of the commuters in the Shirley corridor were in car pools. When completion of I-95 through DC (by whatever name) fell through, when the Three Sisters bridge plan died, even states west of the Rocky Mountains laid claim to Shirley Highway. In case you missed the nuance about planners. Planners only have to worry about what happens within their geographic boundaries. If they plan to put 2,000 vehicles per hour per lane on a road that is already carrying 2,400 vehicles per hour per lane, the problem is with the upstream planners that are jamming THEIR road. In case you are not following the Dulles corridor plan for mass transit, be prepared to cough up $16. Something like $4 billion will come from United States taxpayers for that corridor. Even those from Wyoming will pay. GAO recognizes that WMATA needs a better identification of local funding. At some point the people of California are going to get tired of subsidizing METRO and VRE. But I digress, stay focused on freeing the Shirley Highway. Pitchforks, torches, storm the castle, kill the monster. If you are too busy or too timid for storming castles, an e-mail, fax or phone call will help. If I am too controversial, join Bob's group, or Dave's group. Something as FREE as slugging really isn't free. Slugging requires committment by a dedicated few. quote: Originally posted by VA4ver [br]I don't think changing HOV to toll/HOT (whatever) lanes will be an efficient use of time, etc. As stated before, HOV was designed to move people in and out of the city on buses; now it's carpools and buses. Take away HOV, people will not use buses nor will they carpool. They will join the ranks of solo drivers. If the option to travel quickly into the city via carpool/bus isn't there, what other method do people have to fall back on that's affordable and flexible? Hybrids can just join the ranks of carpoolers or hop over to the regular lanes -- it's all about choice. Give more incentives to increase the number of carpools by making sure there's plenty of parking (even if there's a $1-3/day charge on the lots = ~$15 a week) and use of HOV. dickboyd@aol.com

tugboat Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 10 Mar 2005 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote tugboat Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Mar 2005 at 12:31pm
	quote: Originally posted by Jeremy Cox [br]Bob's message is right on the mark. While hybrid vehicles are somewhat more fuel efficient than regular vehicles (although much less so than their proponents would have us believe), they are increasingly diminishing the efficiency of the HOV lanes. Their environmental is also is doubt--especially compared with having 3 riders in modern, fuel-efficient vehicles. Bottom Line in my opionion: All of us who utilize and appreciate the slug system and how the HOV lanes used to work (3-5 years ago)must unite and demand that VDOT phase out the hybrid exemption as scheduled, if not before then. I'll be attending town meetings in PWC to argue our case. Come out and support us! Go after the cheats not the hybrids. The more numerous cheats who are sure of not being caught are the bane of hov's existence. Just my own opinion. We've been on the HOV lanes since before they were enclosed and I've seen cheats all the time. Lack of enforcement is the problem, the fines aren't high enough.

qorc Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 18 Mar 2004 Location: va Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote qorc Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 2005 at 2:06pm
	OH and I forgot to add concerning the economy of hybrids - I got a $2,000 tax credit for 2004! Saw gas creep over $2.00 a gallon yesterday. I'm feeling smarter and and smarter...

the truth Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 11 Mar 2005 Location: va Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote the truth Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 2005 at 6:00pm
	quote: Originally posted by qorc [br]OH and I forgot to add concerning the economy of hybrids - I got a $2,000 tax credit for 2004! Saw gas creep over $2.00 a gallon yesterday. I'm feeling smarter and and smarter... [:)]

the truth Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 11 Mar 2005 Location: va Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote the truth Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 2005 at 6:06pm
	Oh putting the hybrids back on regular 95 lanes will really help the air quality and congestion... How about no slug lane 12 mpg vehicles on hov? NO SUV's on HOV! OH YEA....

felixthecat Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 04 Mar 2005 Location: virginia Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote felixthecat Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 Mar 2005 at 9:40am
	I could careless if the excemption is dissolved tomorrow regarding the ability to ride solo in the HOV with a hybrid vehicle, that doesn't bother me. What does bother me though is when I hear so many slug folks state how they have counted X amount of solo hybrid folks in the HOV lanes that are causing the problems with congestion, blah blah blah, pound sand. On my way to work this morning, I counted 4 hybrid vehicles, including myself that had single occupancy, however more interesting is the fact that I counted 12 actual violaters, those with a normal car with only the driver occupying them (and a few of those were the state officials that appear to have the unmarked vehicles). My question is after we enforce the HO part of HOV for hybrid owners, what are the traditional commuters going to complain about then. The issue with congestion will not be solved by doing away with the hybrid excemption, and it is not feasible to think that growth will stop of slow down to curb the increasing congestion. Enforcement needs to be stepped up for those who are deliberately violating the rules. Correct this problem first and then worry about those "damn hybrid owners" that are causing you to sit in an extra 20 minutes of commute time.

VA4ver Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 09 Feb 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote VA4ver Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 Mar 2005 at 9:55am
	It's a little annoying to still hear the Hybrid Harpies and Haters (HHH). The goal should be to end the exemption as planned but keep the HOV. Population growth and a serious lack of public transportation are the real issues. Look at California -- serious lack of public transportation and hugh population density = traffic jams. Need to keep the private contracter's greedy paws off the HOV. Need to enourage the slug lines by establishing adequate parking, building a peditrian walk over Franconia, etc. End HOV exemptions for Hybrids but keep a Federal Tax benefit so encourage people to purchase. With the gas prices the way they are, this should be incentive enough to buy one.