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Bob View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2007 at 2:47pm
Re: Hybrids

If you put anything about hybrids on your anti HOT petition, no one will sign it. So you might reconsider.
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spidermonkey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spidermonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2007 at 3:14pm
I really don't want this to turn into a NoSUV v. Bob thing here because none of that is really productive, if you know what I mean (no offense to anyone).

So what kind of wording can the NoSUV types and Bob types of the world live with?? This has got to be something where these two camps (which you two represent for better, or for worse) can work together, otherwise all of the infighting and bickering will sterilize us all as the Fluor/Richmond types steamroll right over us. When this happens, there will be no use having any flame-wars. If we can't stop them NOW, there will be no stopping them once the gain momentum.

----

How about an amended (neutral) #5, which brings in Jody's suggestion (which I think is a really good one)

5. We believe that within a short time after the lanes become operational, a move will be made by the private consortium to convert the HOV-3 to HOV-4 and/or begin charging tolls to vehicles originally exempt from paying tolls. We insist that vehicles carrying 3 or more people (including public transportation) are exempt from paying tolls in the HOT lanes at all times, for the life of the HOT system.


spidermonkey
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Bob View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2007 at 3:28pm
That seem ok. In regard to hybrids, there is literally no way the HOT developers will allow them. There would be a tidal wave of hybrids and it would kill their profits. No brainer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoSUV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2007 at 3:29pm
quote:
Originally posted by Bob
[br]Re: Hybrids

If you put anything about hybrids on your anti HOT petition, no one will sign it. So you might reconsider.


spidermonkey,

100% of the General Assembly (that's Delegates and Senators) voted to approve the hybrid exemption this year. Bob's "no one" is out of sync with the rest of Virginia.

The problem with your #5 wording is that it is unlikely that anyone will make a guarantee for life - the future is just too darn hard to predict. Would the legislature disregard the whole thing for the sake of one part?

Also, your wording in the earlier (1440) post is not quite right. For some inexplicable reason, the current HOT plan excludes motorcycles but not hybrids. I have told my delegate and senator that they belong in the same category.

Anyway, your revised wording still won't help the air quality, which you and I breathe (I'm not sure about Bob). Emission levels are rising, transportation is 1/3 of the cause, and leaving things at status quo or worse won't help. Need to clearly state that tolls won't be levied initially on CSF vehicles. Congesion based pricing will keep out the bigger polluting SOVs.
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spidermonkey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spidermonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2007 at 3:41pm
Ok... While I have both of you engaged, how about simply omitting point #5? It is a concern of all (changes to what might be originally negotiated), but not entirely essential to the petition.

Thoughts?

Can both of the "camps" live with the wording of Cavvie's original 13:56 post along with my minor editorial of point #8. I can repost it in its entirety once we have a general agreement.

It behooves us to work together to get this ball rolling before we are steamrolled. If nothing else, we might get some "paper" to pick up on the story and turn it into something with teeth.

spidermonkey
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AveMaria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2007 at 11:21am
Spidermonkey,

It is impossible to (effectively) serve two gods. Please move forward with your initiative!

Don't waste valuable time dealing with those TWO parasites who suck the life out of ANY TOPIC which doesn't support views of how things should be in THEIR individual little worlds.

Thanks so much to all who have added positive input to this effort. If there is anything that I can do to assist (handing out flyers, etc.) pls email me at pacdiva2000@yahoo.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoSUV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2007 at 12:24pm
spidermonkey,
Ave is correct - Bob is SO anti-hybrid that he is unwillng to join forces to stop HOT. In fact, several months ago he began a topic in this area about recruiting allies to fight HOT. Just as long as the allies excluded the hybrid community. His stance appears to be that it is better to go it alone than get assistance from those he hates. And very, very few posters on this board are willing to compromise - just like our political system.

If you want to be inclusive, add something about the hybrids. Inclusive, generally speaking, brings a larger diversity and greater population to agree with you. And being exclusive sets you up for a far smaller number of supporter as well as having to receive broadsides from those you excluded. I think your goal is to have the petition signed by more than just the slug community, and perhaps much of the Commonwealth. What will give you the greatest overall support and the least resistence? If you ask just a small segment, like the slug community, you might get a different answer than if you look at the broader population. For the hybrid exclusion exemption, it was passed by a vote of 94-0 this year, so there seems to be some support for it, even if not on this board.

It is YOUR petition, so it is YOUR choice.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cavvie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2007 at 4:47pm
Spidermonkey,

I guess being new to this, we don't bring as much baggage. Try modifying my #10 to read as follows:

10. Virginia must preserve the most successful HOV system in the country. Transportation efforts must have a neutral or improving effect on the region's air quality. Single occupancy vehicles which are not environmentally friendly should not be able to buy their way into special transportation access. We need to promote more carpools, not single occupant cars.

This modification gives a little to both camps. Short of using this language, the arguments will continue which is exactly what Fluor wants and such a petition never gets a chance to survive. In the end, VDOT and Fluor wins and we all end up driving and paying for the pleasure whether you are a hybrid or HOV-3. Either way, the responsible party, either hybrids or HOV-3 will then have to take the responsibility of killing this effort and be partially responsible for the success of HOT. Let's move out and let the cards fall where they may.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spidermonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2007 at 7:16pm
quote:
Originally posted by Cavvie
Let's move out and let the cards fall where they may.



-------------

In the interest of fair & full disclosure, here is what I plan on going with (see below). Points of change from Cavvie's original 2007/08/06, 13:56 reword:

#10. Cavvies' 2007/08/07, 16:47 reword
#8. My 2007/08/06, 14:40 (minor editorial) reword
#5. My final combined 2007/08/06, 15:14 reword (which does include Jody's point) with a new minor editorial reword changing "are" to "contractually remain"

Thanks to Fluor/VDOT for all of the motivation.
Thanks to Bob for the start, the thorough editorial rewrite from Cavvie, some input from Sheepish and Jody, and yes, even the some of the "bash & clash" from Bob and NoSUV helped out too, I think---Hey, let's work together to stop this thing cold before it can even get any steam!

Here is what I plan on going with.

I am going to leave posted for 24 hours before initiating the petition online.

AveMaria: Any kind of help that you are proposing will be useful to the cause. We'll have to think about the best way to go about this. Definitely someway getting the word out to slugs & drivers in the NOVA area will be the first step. Getting the word out to other friends & family down state will be necessary to get some momentum going statewide.

Are there any lawyers with their "ears" on that might have some knowledge about the legality of turning public roadways into privately owned and operated ventures???? Seems like this would be something that would stop this thing dead in its tracks.

Anyways...look for something tomorrow night. I'll post when a petition becomes available.

-------------

We the undersigned strongly oppose the I-95/395 High Occupancy Toll (HOT) lane project for the following reasons:

1. We object to the secretive nature of the Public-Private Partnership negotiations between the State of Virginia and private consortiums. All citizens across the entire State of Virginia deserve to be informed of all the terms of any agreement entered into between the State of Virginia and any private consortium under the Public Private Partnership Act. The citizens of the State of Virginia deserve to have any and all questions related to this conversion answered fully and honestly by both their elected officials and VDOT officials prior to any contractual vehicle being executed between the State of Virginia and any private consortium in a public forum. The information should also contain details for understanding the implications to all citizens, financial or other, should this Private-Public partnership not meet the requirements of either party. Without terms of agreement, details, and the opportunity to vote on potential financial repercussions of a failed partnership, we question whether VDOT is acting in the best interest for all citizens of Virginia.

2. It should be against Federal and State law to convert an existing High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) lane, paid for with Federal and/or State tax revenue, to a private corporation/partnership for HOT with no reimbursement to the taxpayer for the initial cost of building these lanes.

3. We object to having a private consortium being transferred the authority to control a portion of the most critical interstate system in the U.S. with no input or opportunity to vote by the citizens of the State of Virginia into the law which authorizes such a transfer.

4. There is inadequate capacity on 395 to support the addition of thousands of single occupant toll vehicles and re-striping will not add capacity due to bottlenecks.

5. We believe that within a short time after the lanes become operational, a move will be made by the private consortium to convert the HOV-3 to HOV-4 and/or begin charging tolls to vehicles originally exempt from paying tolls. We insist that vehicles carrying 3 or more people (including public transportation) contractually remain exempt from paying tolls in the HOT lanes at all times, for the life of the HOT system.

6. We are concerned that this system will harm HOV by crowding the corridor, and in so doing will have long term negative consequences on commute times, air pollution, and parking.

7. Technology proposed by the private consortium that is anticipated for enforcing the HOT lanes is not currently viable and will require other more reliable and much more expensive and time consuming methods (i.e., manned toll booths for visual inspection, state police) that will result in significantly degraded commute times.

8. The imposition of such a system on the most highly traveled corridor on the East Coast and on the only viable commute option for Washington DC area workers is an unfair tax especially on residents living in the area.

9. Other options should be explored and the results provided to the citizens of the State of Virginia on alternatives including having the private consortium purchase right-of-way and add a regular lane to I95 for the purpose of HOT or conversion of one of the regular lanes of I-95 to HOT on a reimbursable basis by the private consortium.

10. Virginia must preserve the most successful HOV system in the country. Transportation efforts must have a neutral or improving effect on the region's air quality. Single occupancy vehicles which are not environmentally friendly should not be able to buy their way into special transportation access. We need to promote more carpools, not single occupant cars.

11. We will explicitly campaign and vote against any local official, or State of Virginia official who supports any public-private transportation agreement that does not adhere to these guidelines and in particular, this inherently unfair transportation option.
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achall View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote achall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2007 at 8:41am
spidermonkey - looks great. When do you expect the petition to be available for signing?
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